an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

[ospeff]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Seigan is too random, but yes I never thought about WAR/SAM seriously, I may try it. Though I'll be tempted to use Hasso more than anything.

[Durahansolo]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Though I'll be tempted to use Hasso more than anything.

You use it just like SAM's that main job basically, Hasso and fight and if you pull hate then Macro Seigan + Third Eye. You can also keep Retaliation up so that just in case Third Eye wears off you can return fire with a few hits. Also Meditation only gives 60% TP to any jobs that sub it but that comes in handy. When I go to campaign I go as WAR/SAM and then just leave Hasso on as I fight the Fortification and WS as much as I can and load Meditate usually right after I WS.

IMO Seigan is more random on jobs that /SAM than it is to SAM itself. I just always assume I'll get at least 2 anticipations.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

IMO Seigan is more random on jobs that /SAM than it is to SAM itself. I just always assume I'll get at least 2 anticipations.

RNG with Seiryu's Kote seems to get a bit out of it as well, I've anticipated up to seven times, usually three/four at minimum. But then, I am a mithra RNG, too. Lots of AGI.

[Silversky]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

omgwtfbbqkitten (great account name) makes a lot of great points.

a lot of the point of this thread was to make certain jobs more appealing as subs. as it stands, a lot of jobs have no use being subbed, or if they do, its VERY situational.

but i see your point in how SE has addressed a lot of the sub issues.

[ospeff]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Every sub should be useful in more than 1 situation. DRK, COR, DRG, BLU, MNK, PLD, RNG, BRD, and SMN are for the most part terrible subjobs or only good for 1 job or so. WHM, RDM, SCH, WAR, NIN, DNC, THF, etc. are so much more dominant it's ridiculous. Those jobs need better low-level JAs.

[DakAttack]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

If more than one job had dual-wield, I'm sure we'd see less people subbing Ninja, even though they would lose Utsusemi. I'm sure there's another ability or spell that can be added to a new dual-wield job to make it just as appealing. Same goes for Provoke, and other abilities and spells. It wouldn't be job breaking if other jobs shared similar abilities and spells. Of course, Mages already do this with spells, and because of the sub job system, people of different job combinations share similar abilities as well. So, it really wouldn't break any one job if another shared similar spells and abilities. As long as they work along the same line as traits, nothing game breaking will occur.

All this, simply, to offer new combinations and even change old ones. Imagine new job combinations if Monk or Dragoon had Provoke, and Dancer or Blue Mage had Dual Wield.

Jobs like Paladin and Summoner may still offer little in the way of being a sub job. It's disappointing to see Ninja become such a popular sub job while Paladin sits on the side, seeing as how they're both tanks, and both have the potential to deal damage. Ninja is primarily used as a sub to avoid damage, so if Paladin were to compete it would need to offer mitigation as a sub job on par with Ninja's avoidance. Since Utsusemi loses hate while avoiding damage, and healing increases hate while reversing damage, then I feel it would be best to see a Paladin sub job become useful where damage mitigation and hate retention would be key. Perhaps any job could switch to it and suddenly enhance their ability to tank greatly, espesially in ToAU areas or in smaller parties. It would really depend on other factors that would make having a single tank beneficial.

Oh, I got lost dreaming again...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Every sub should be useful in more than 1 situation. DRK, COR, DRG, BLU, MNK, PLD, RNG, BRD, and SMN are for the most part terrible subjobs or only good for 1 job or so. WHM, RDM, SCH, WAR, NIN, DNC, THF, etc. are so much more dominant it's ridiculous. Those jobs need better low-level JAs.

This from our resident "Expert" on FFXI.

DRK - Used by RDM in PvP and whored out in endgame, potentially useful to SCH if needed for a tight Stun cycle. And its not like its a RDM-only sub, I've seen a JP HNMLS take Cerberus down because the majority of thier LS subbed it. WHMs, CORs, NINs and more.

COR - Situationally useful to BRDs since it gives them access to Healer's Roll to go with Ballad for mages and Samurai Roll or other Rolls for melee. COR is commonly used in the early levels to gain more EXP from Corsair's Role.

DRG - not unheard of for SAMs to use it at lower levels and DNCs use it at intermediate levels, but face it, DRG is married to its wyvern as what makes it unique, there isn't much you could do to the sub without stealing that from the main.

BRD - Not uncommon to see a COR don BRD sub for manaburn or a RDM if they're actually that desparate to be part of one. While the melee bonuses are weaker under sub, they're still bonuses.


MNK - useful for classic WAR tanking, early DNC levelling and probably not shabby for PUP early on either.

BLU - I've already outlined this, it actually sees a lot of play by various jobs depending on the situations. Just because players as a whole may not commonly use it doesn't mean the functionality isn't there. I should add that BLU is very much the dominant solo subjob for DRG these days. The benefits of Cocoon are too good to pass up and Power Attack is the fastest healing breath trigger in the game.

PLD - There's not much to write home about from this sub. Flash is pretty much it, other tanking jobs don't gain as much from it as other subjobs.

RNG - This actually is a common subjob for CORs and actively used by SAMs as well. The Accuracy bonus traits are not only functional for ranged attacks all throught the game, but also in the 20s for any melee job. I've used it for DNC and SAM subjob levelling most recently. its pretty nice.

SMN - it fell to the wayside the day SCH was added. SCH is just a better sub for WHMs and with SCHs and SMN mains able to do what they do for tanking/melee PTs, there's not much of a need for RDM and WHMs to sub SMN anymore to help out. It is true that SMN could use some retooling in the subjob department.

SCH - This is a dominant sub? I don't think it is, but it should be. Its clearly got benefits for WHM, BLMs and RDMs just aren't brave enough to trust thier allies to protect them to use it. If they did have a little more trust, BLMs would be able to last longer in big events before having to rest. RDM actually can become a even bigger MP whore with Alacrity/Aspir on top of already having Refresh and Convert.



WHM - its dominant for a reason , its just that useful. To RDM, BRD SMN and various other jobs depending on the situation. Cure III, Reraise, Curaga, status cures - there's no reason to not want to have this subjob around.

RDM - RDM is dominant to BLM and SCH. PLDs use it for soloing and COR or RDM might sub it fo a little another dispel option. Outside of that, not a very common subjob.

WAR - I'd love to see WAR be more dominant. These days melees try to skate by without having it. I'd rather have SAM/WAR in most cases than I would SAM/THF - especially in kited fights.

SAM - I'd like to see more WARs use it, but DRGs and DRKs have taken to it swimmingly

THF - The update to SAM actually took a lot of incentive away from using THF. I actually think that's a good thing because THF has a troublesome design that's hard to go back and change without people complaining. But would you like it to go back to the way it was before? THF had nothing to stand out with when /THF was dominant. Now it isn't.

DNC - OK, outside of SAM, COR and PUP, I don't see DNC commonly used at EXP or endgame levels. These jobs have obvious advantages that allow them to make use of it well. SAM has Store TP, Meditate and Soboro. COR has Joyeuse, Mercurial Kris and Samurai Roll. PLD has Joyeuse and MP to fall back on. SAM, PLD and COR have obvious reasons to exploit its use in Campaign, COR and SAM even in endgame events. DNC can allow COR more buff variety or enhance the advantages of Hunter's and Chaos Roll. DNC lets pup become even more of a viable support healer so people don't have to worry about only Automation cures finding them.

[ospeff]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Noticed I said "or useful to only one job"

DRK sub is for RDMs, that's it. Subbing DRK on SCH is retarded. And any melee that is soloing subs /DNC, that's why its dominant. All of your other examples are terrible ? BRD subbing COR is stupid, there goes your ability to pull.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

Noticed I said "or useful to only one job"

DRK sub is for RDMs, that's it. Subbing DRK on SCH is retarded. And any melee that is soloing subs /DNC, that's why its dominant. All of your other examples are terrible ? BRD subbing COR is stupid, there goes your ability to pull.

Perhaps if we all looked at the game just in terms of solo and EXP, we'd all be awesome like you.

All of my examples are terrible? You're going to have to do more than smack the keyboard a little bit to explain why I'm wrong. Good luck on that, by the way.

Explain how that /DRK-subbing HNMLS taking down Cerberus is dumb - it certainly seemed to get them a win from what I observed. Explain to me why /DRK is RDM -only when NINs use it for endgame content, too. Explain to me why /BLU is dumb for DRG and how /RNG isn't getting enough utility when two other jobs actively use it and others can use it in thier 20s to aid accuracy. Its the only job that has Accuracy Bonus at level 10 and no other job gets it until 30.

Maybe you just don't know this game as well as you think you do. I know why that would be the case and others already pointed it out to you last Saturday.

[ospeff]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

NINs that sub DRK are retarded, it's that simple. That is so fucking stupid it doesn't even warrant an explanation, you are insulting me by even mentioning NIN/DRK. BLU is a sidegrade from WHM sub for DRGs, and usually when you're in a DRG PT you want to have /WHM anyway incase someone dies. SAM subbing RNG is stupid as well, they aren't going to hit anything with an archery cap of 230 vs RNG's 276 not to mention sidewinder is already inaccurate as is.

I have all of those jobs at 75, so you're going to need to try alot harder, you can't BS me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

NINs that sub DRK are retarded, it's that simple. That is so fucking stupid it doesn't even warrant an explanation, you are insulting me by even mentioning NIN/DRK.

Let's put that up on FFXIclopedia and BGWiki, I'm totally sure that explaination will help people so much.

BLU is a sidegrade from WHM sub for DRGs, and usually when you're in a DRG PT you want to have /WHM anyway incase someone dies.

I don't consider Cocoon or Set Traits a sidegrade. You're going to want a couple DRG/WHMs, yes, but you're probably going to have a BRD, COR, RDM, WHM or SCH along anyway, so they can raise just as well anyway. Also, Reraise items: They're not just for Dynamis anymore.

SAM subbing RNG is stupid as well, they aren't going to hit anything with an archery cap of 230 vs RNG's 276 not to mention sidewinder is already inaccurate as is.

I think you are keenly unaware of just how much Ranged Accuracy gear there is in this game and how easy most of it is to get. People who levelled RNG would be aware of those nifty bone-type rings you get every ten or fifteen levels in the game. All jobs can wear them. Two Accuracy Bonus Traits bring you up to +22 Accuracy at 60+ is pretty signifigant.

The more you flap those gums, the more you're showing me you really don't know anything, Find a forum where this little act of yours works and get your ego fed there, but don't be surprised if any poster from any FFXI forum could run circles around your arguments.

[Firewind]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

A well geared DD that is going all out is going to pull hate, so he will gimp his own damage on purpose. With /NIN sub they don't have to as they can take a few hits before hate is re-established.

And a well geared tank should really have no problem keeping hate unless they are a NIN or can't lands hits to keep their CE high. What you are saying is that it's okay to be a gimp DD because then you aren't pulling hate but if you're /NIN it's okay to ignore hate thresholds.

Do you not understand the simple concept of DDing? If you intentionally lower your damage output you are then causing the tank to take more hits and causing them to lose more hate and the healer to use up more MP if you aren't using your damage dealing capabilities to their fullest potential. Staying under the hate threshold DOES NOT mean intentionally gimping your damage.

You also seem to have no idea what the ability Trick Attack from a Thief sub does for DDs.

By your logic a black mage should sub SMN or SCH because it gives them more MP and INT to do damage and you have to heal less? Except the black mage dies in 1 hit when he gets hate, thats why they all sub RDM and WHM for blink/skin.

You can get Blink from a SMN sub and a SCH sub gives you Alacrity+Sleep and Regen II which will increase survivability and Reraise and Sublimation from a SCH sub.

I'm also giving you bonus "You don't know what the hell you're talking about" points for not acknowledging the /NIN sub for BLM in that list. BLM is one of the few DD jobs that has it's damage output increased by a NIN sub instead of decreased. Fire off an elemental ninjutsu before a nuke and see watch it mess with everyone's parsers.

DRK sub is for RDMs, that's it. Subbing DRK on SCH is retarded. And any melee that is soloing subs /DNC, that's why its dominant. All of your other examples are terrible ? BRD subbing COR is stupid, there goes your ability to pull.

Can you read or do you just need to borrow my glasses? kitten said that BRDs only sub COR at low levels to stack Corsair's Roll with Exp bands. If you are having a BRD pull at low levels when just about every single DD job in the game can pull in some way (and are much more efficient at it at low levels) then I'm going to be seriously questioning how much you actually know about the game.

[Pavlyn]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

NINs that sub DRK are retarded, it's that simple. That is so fucking stupid it doesn't even warrant an explanation, you are insulting me by even mentioning NIN/DRK.

you obviously have no idea how enmity works.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

kitten said that BRDs only sub COR at low levels to stack Corsair's Roll with Exp bands. If you are having a BRD pull at low levels when just about every single DD job in the game can pull in some way (and are much more efficient at it at low levels) then I'm going to be seriously questioning how much you actually know about the game

Well, I said BRD could make use of COR in some situations, not just early levels. The only downside to support/support in my eyes is no protection for yourself. While i don't see the complete merit of it, there are people that say they've made it work. COR/BRD in Pudding camps I can see working, given puddings aren't really that quick on chasing you, I just don't trust those BLMs to look out for me whent the chips are down, so I go with /WHM or /NIN in that situation on my COR.

A BRD/COR in certain situatons would have a few new buffs they didn't have access to before. They don't have a Store TP buff or +hMP buff, COR does as a sub. Again, this is going to be for select situations where pulls or healing is fairly covered, but those situations do happen.

People who think BRDs are default pullers didn't know much of this game before ToA. Expecting BRDs to pull before they even have Elegy is retarded. BRDs these days don't even get to learn how to set up buffs for thier PT because people think burn PTs happen at every level. They don't.

[Durahansolo]

Re: an idea: job synergy. tell me what you think

you want to have /WHM anyway incase someone dies.

Back in my day, there was no raise. If anybody died they had to warp straight to their mog house because there were no Home Point Crystals.

I think BBQ might've mentioned it and I missed it, but also you do get the helpful stat bonuses from subbing BLU as well.