SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Before I start, I want to clarify the title. When I'm talking about demand, I'm not talking about which is more popular, but what I'm going to be asked to come as more often.

As updates often make players do, I'm resorting my job priorities/goals. I've talked a bit about taking RDM back up and did some endgame a while back, but I've not really been able to gauge the demand since there was a bit of drama in that shell and the leaders were low in quality, which is the reason I quit the LS. Also, I took about two months off from FFXI this summer and have been loaded down with 50 hour work weeks the last few.

So yeah, hard to gauge the situation right now.

I love my SCH to pieces and the updates have renewed my interest in levelling up BST and DRG along with rebuilding my 75 BRD. BRD I would prefer not to be "stuck" on, but I can really approach the job on my terms again, which makes that enjoyable from the EXP/Merit perspective and makes endgame more tolerable.

Also, the leader of that LS I was in was a lousy SCH. Good gear, weak execution. He referred to them as SCHealers, which shows his narrow scope on the job. If SCHs aren't getting in the BLM PTs at all, something is wrong with people at endgame, what with SCHs having Storm magic, Klimaform, nukes and all that. This LS would put BRD in BLM PTs over COR and BRD didn't have relic horn. Big WTF from me there. COR + SCH + BLM x4, I think, would be the ideal at this point, especially for BLMs with all the Obis.

Not that I dislike SCH main healing, its actually so fun I don't really consider it a healer, more the defensive buffwhore of mages. What can I say, I like AoE buffs. Its what I do.

But I do realize the endgame scene is slow to adapt to anything newer and I haven't played SCH with a good endgame LS yet, so I can't really judge the situation.

I think if I got stuck on RDM more than SCH or even BRD, I'll just leave RDM where it is so I can give BST and DRG some love again. They've been waiting in the wings forever to be played as it is.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

My ls likes schs but some of the rdm's epeens get out of joint. It's annoying and it creates a hardship for the leadership. We did some KS99's last night and if it weren't for the sch in the ally, I think that we might have failed at one attempt at least. I think that rdms and schs can co-exist and really benefit events in endgame if people can get over the petty jealousy.

[MrMageo]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

To be perfectly honest, I think SCH/RDM is more useful overall for competant endgame than RDM is. Now not trying to discredit RDM, there are times when its use is paramount to success.

If your question is (from what I gather) should I level RDM or leave it? because I do not want to get stuck on it. I would say level it. RDM is hugely useful in certain events, and marginally required in other events where your SCH should play out better in terms of value.

Chainspell Stun is pretty well what cements RDM into the endgame scene, its ability to tank or kite etc are secondary, heck a good WHM can tank JoL. (but that is besides the point). Essentially for the majority of RDM endgame you are functioning as a haste/healer/refresher with the exception of above instances.

Most shells have this covered with WHM's BRD's RDM's already. It would be up to you in the situation to prove why there would be more use for your SCH comming than an additional H/H/R job. SCH can pump up BLM's can AoE buff frontliners, things a RDM can not.

It is an invaluable tool to have a competant SCH their. Much more valuable on the whole of endgame then another H/H/R. But the burden would be on you to show why.

You only get stuck if you allow it to get stuck. If you say I will come RDM/DRK or RDM/NIN or when I am needed, but in most cases I will bring my SCH as it provides more overall alliance support than RDM or WHM do.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

My ls likes schs but some of the rdm's epeens get out of joint. It's annoying and it creates a hardship for the leadership. We did some KS99's last night and if it weren't for the sch in the ally, I think that we might have failed at one attempt at least. I think that rdms and schs can co-exist and really benefit events in endgame if people can get over the petty jealousy.

That's the weird thing to me, the RDMs who still seem offended another capable healer, nuker and crowd-controller was added to the game. And yet they're getting butthurt over things like AoE Phalanx, which isn't a new thing considering SMN got it way before SCH was added. OK, some did, I do remember, but they made it out to be a bigger deal that it was.

SCH and DNC were added to ease things up on the healer end. RDMs and SMNs should be thankful for that, these jobs being around let you skew to your jobs specialties even more than ever.

I really think much of it just boils down to the Avesta hype. Lots of RDMs think they can do what he does and get epeen out of it though they don't really even come within fifty miles of what he does. But when some other job can do something similar to what they do, arguably more effectively, its time for arms!

And even though RDM's Group 2 upgrades make Phalanx II cheaper than Accession Phalanx, they're dropping the category left and right now just cuz SCH can do it AoE. You will not always have SCHs, folks, not everyone picked up the job and its nowhere close to being in even ratio with RDM in terms of population.

Anyway, back on topic

[Yellow Mage]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

I'm thanking you whilst simultaneously praying that you are wrong about there existing such backwards-thinking RDMs out there.

Of course, I know you aren't, but still.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

I do know a few that have uttered "I'd removing my Phalanx II merits because of SCH," I can't say I understand it since I think most people who'd want to level SCH have done so already.

I think I just enjoy the freedom of SCH and COR a lot more that most other jobs, they're wanted, but not as restricted as some classes are in what they're wanted to do. I can solo, I can do meleeburn PTs as a healer or go manaburn. COR is welcome on the melee side of things, welcomed in manaburn. Both seem to have respectable endgame demand.

I just worry having another refresher at 75 would take away from what I already have. Though initially the plan was to level RDM to compliment SCH and smother out my BRD, now that things have changed to where BRD can be back on my terms more often I don't feel its neccessary to hide the BRD anymore or plot against it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

I do know a few that have uttered "I'd removing my Phalanx II merits because of SCH,"

In all fairness, Phalanx II is made of all kinds of suck, and is really only remotely worth keeping if fully merited, and why fully merit that when, oh lookie here, Tier II Slow and Blind, as well as Tier III Dia and Bio.

[MrMageo]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

RDM's that remove Phalanx 2 for that reason sadden me. Yes I am irritated SCH came in and made Phalanx 2 look meh but its still huge, even more so with a SCH in the group with you.

It sucks that RDM's Phalanx 2 is inferior to a SCH's AoE Phalanx but good players get over it and realize there are better things a SCH can do with their limited MP pools than worry about keeping Phalanx up all the time.

Stoneskin, Enspells, Blink, Curaga 4, etc etc up on everyone all the time with a RDM giving Phalanx 2 make events like salvage, and Nyzul a freaking joke.

As for having another Refresher, I can't remember the last time I was responsible for refresh only in an endgame event. RDM/NIN is arguably the best end game tank against most endgame mobs (save possibly byakko but if people arent 6 manning him everywhere with 4RDM/SCH, a RDM/DRK, and a PLD/NIN then there isn't much else I can say). It just depends on what you want to do yourself BBQ. If you want to be a refresher than you can be one. If you want to be a tank be one, if you want to be in the 6man byakko squad be in it.

Leveling RDM will just give you another option to do something else in endgame, and you do not need to just refresh. Especially with your list of other jobs you have available that are all useful in their own rights for endgame. Anyone who thinks RDM is just a refresher, thinks that because thats what they allow themselves to become or want to become.

[Malacite]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

So, let the speculation begin!

By which I mean what SCH may eventually get out of it's category 2's and thus drive up it's allure at end game. (As if multiple SCH stacking max merit Modus Veritas on an HNM isn't enough already)

Given the usual structure, here's what I figure we might end up seeing from SE;


Any 2 of the following for each addendum;


Addendum White:

~ Haste, Regain, Stoneskin, Blink, Tier-2 Storms

Addendum Black:

~ Gravity, Tier 2 Helix?


And 1-2 new stratagems for each Grimoire.

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SCH has a lot of potential at end game for so many things (especially crowd control) so unless your LS is starved for Refresh, I can't see why they wouldn't want a SCH handy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

Stoneskin, Enspells, Blink, Curaga 4, etc etc up on everyone all the time with a RDM giving Phalanx 2 make events like salvage, and Nyzul a freaking joke.

Accession Cure IV is not Curaga IV, bur it is a deathwish. No SCH in thier right mind should do it except for shits and giggles in Campaign.

Anyway, I still feel RDM should invest in Phalanx II because I'm sure PLDs would want it even if SCHs can AoE it. Keep in mind SCHs aren't just defensive buffers and healers, but much like COR, they can help the BLMs output more damage, which is certainly something to consider in certain events.

Re: Malacite

I don't think SE would give Tier II Storms or Helix considering what's already been given and giving SCHs access to double weather would be kinda broken.

I'm more of the opinion we'll get some meritable strategems.

What I'd really like to see is a Trait to extend the radius of my Accession buffs. AoE buffs are obviously a strong point of the job, but catching everyone with Accession buffs is sometimes trickier than pinning people down with BRD or COR buffs.

Being able to merit the potency boost of Ebulliance would also be nice, but I doubt that will happen since we're already pretty competitive with BLMs on nukes.

Anyway, I'd still like to hear more on the perspective of whats in-demand. I expected Mr. Mageo to come and play cheerleader for RDM. This isn't even about the versatility of what RDM does at endgame. I just would prefer that my SCH isn't outshined by any other job on Foobar. I can do BRD and deal with that, but if RDM were to take the lionshare of focus from SCH, I don't think I'd be happy about that.

[Malacite]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

It'd be nice if they'd allow Raise and ReRaise to work with accession. Dear lord having a SCH Accession + Raise II after a wipe in Dyna would save so much time!

[MrMageo]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

I don't cheerlead RDM where it is not valid. Plain and simple SCH offers more to an endgame group than a RDM that only focus' on refresh haste and healing. For both its defensive and offensive buffs. Both ways add a huge amount to any end game group. I like many others use RDM as a filler, and more often than not filling a healer, haste, refresh role is not needed. It is welcomed but is not needed.

It is just what you want to do with it. IMO a RDM who only focus' on H/H/R is not an effective RDM. One who is ready to tank and other things I hit on is, In these positions it will outshine SCH. In terms of overall party support SCH outshines RDM. Not to mention it can reliably deal damage as well something RDM has a hard time doing, unless you include opening SC as damage.

To answer your question RDM won't outshine your SCH, any decent LS will know what SCH offers and it is more than RDM who does not also bring the above things I outlined as well.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

To answer your question RDM won't outshine your SCH, any decent LS will know what SCH offers and it is more than RDM who does not also bring the above things I outlined as well.

I know someone that you could have a very "lively" conversation with! LOL

[Callisto]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

In my opinion they fill 2 entirely different roles, and aren't exactly in competition with each other. We typically used our SCH(when we had one) as a nuker since we were short on BLMs, though as a healer using Accession/Stoneskin they're fantastic for melee parties at events.

Vs RDM at events, they just won't take the same party spot. RDMs are there for Refresh and debuffing, SCH is there for support and/or DD. Vs. RDM in XP, SCH's lack of Haste alone typically makes RDM a more attractive alternative in regards to being a main healer, and while SCH does have similar MP self-sufficiency to RDM, it's nothing that WHM/SCH can't get and do just as well if not better at.

Edit: Regarding Phalanx II, I will still likely drop mine to raise Slow/Para up to level 4 each, however in Salvage it's fantastic since you don't need JAs unlocked in order to use it, whereas SCH needs JAs unlocked to do most of their fancy stuff, as well as subjobs unlocked to cast Phalanx. I guess by that reasoning RDM > SCH in general there, at least until the JA/subjob cells are distributed.
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I really think much of it just boils down to the Avesta hype. Lots of RDMs think they can do what he does and get epeen out of it though they don't really even come within fifty miles of what he does. But when some other job can do something similar to what they do, arguably more effectively, its time for arms!

Another add b/c I missed this, again they just don't do the same things. SCH can solo a Yovra, RDM can't, however SCH would likely get sodomized by Zipacna or Faust, and probably couldn't do Brothers. Different soloing style entirely, not exactly fair to either job to compare the two soloing.
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Triple-post! Also I never felt a reason to be salty about what SCH gets, instead I'm psyched that since I have some impressive casting gear stockpiled from RDM, when I finish meritting my current 4 jobs and level SCH I will have some pretty crazy shit to ding into as SCH, and will be just as awesome at that as I am at RDM(though that of course is nearing physical impossibility, but hey small details )

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SCH vs. RDM at Endgame - in terms of demand

It'd be nice if they'd allow Raise and ReRaise to work with accession. Dear lord having a SCH Accession + Raise II after a wipe in Dyna would save so much time!

I'd agree with you, but my stance as a mage is that I'm never there to babysit you. Bring your own reraise, its not hard and its a standard expectation of everyone in Dynamis and endgame events in general (or at least my standards are high). I can already use Celerity to speed up Raise and Raise II as is and you will take whichever I decide to give you.