Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

When my BLM was in a perma, I was dumping nearly as much MP into cures as nukes. Curing just doesn't bother me.

Main curing a party is fun. I do think I did a better job at it on WHM than RDM at the same level, because on WHM I can concentrate on it even more, however.

My last two merit parties on RDM had more than one mage, though; one had an extra RDM, the other a WHM. I ended up helping to pull in the first party (lot's of competitors), and did all the pulling in the second after the dismal performance from the NIN puller (no BRD in the second party).

Those were fun, too. ._. (Yes, I did toss out plenty of cures in both parties as well.)

* * *

For a while, I was playing BRD as a break from RDM because how stressful RDM can be in exp parties. I completely agree that not all jobs should be equally busy. Heck, I long to play SAM these days as a break from jobs like RDM, PLD, and SCH. ._.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

Main curing a party is fun. I do think I did a better job at it on WHM than RDM at the same level, because on WHM I can concentrate on it even more, however.

There you go. If you want to main heal, why the heck aren't you playing White Mage?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

There you go. If you want to main heal, why the heck aren't you playing White Mage?

Because I liked the versatility of Red Mage; able to handle main curing when called for, able to debuff critters on critical fights, able to play puller when needed, able to solo SCH AF fight, able to... You get the point.

Main healing is just another trick in a good RDM's arsenal. A very useful one, I might add.

(There's also the issue of not able to find enough time; currently trying desperately to catch up to my sister's BLM58 on SCH53 so we can go duo'ing... I did level my WHM from 42 to 44 one night as a break from RDM, though. XD)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

Because I liked the versatility of Red Mage; able to handle main curing when called for, able to debuff critters on critical fights, able to play puller when needed, able to solo SCH AF fight, able to... You get the point.

Main healing is just another trick in a good RDM's arsenal. A very useful one, I might add.

So what you're saying is, Red Mage is a good main healer that can do more things than White Mage can.

Thar's yer probl'm thar, Squeenix.

[Karinya]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

True, but what are you going to do about it? They don't want all parties to be "WHM or GTFO". There have to be multiple jobs that can fill the role adequately, and having more than enough healing just isn't very helpful. You can't heal things to death unless they're undead, and even then, the effectiveness of offensive curing against undead is far below what it was in other FFs.

I suppose they could take Haste away from RDMs and make it a WHM-exclusive spell (well, aside from Hastega). As overpowered as RDM undoubtedly is in some contexts, I'm still dubious of that idea, and not just because of the whining it would provoke.


Other than that, I guess we can just rehash all the WHM addition suggestions from the last ten times this subject was brought up...

Pray as a JA, so you could provide some healing that isn't dependent on MP? Once activated, every tick it restores HP (amount dependent on your level or MND) to you and every party member in range; attacking, resting, or casting a spell cancels it (and probably dying and zoning), but you can activate it again when the cooldown is up. 30 seconds or 1 minute maybe depending on the strength of the effect. Maybe the total healed should be fixed rather than the amount per person, so if fewer people are wounded (or in range), they will receive more healing per person. (Actually, I think that's a new one - at least the suggested mechanics, which I just made up. Something similar to FFIV Pray/FFVI Health has been suggested before, I'm sure.)

FFX-style Barspells II? (I like this idea personally, but it might be just a bit broken when a whm can cast Barfira II and completely block Tera Flare or Mijin Gakure... Maybe it could be a damage-absorbing effect like the updated Rampart, but against that specific element only, instead.)

Stoneskin II castable on others (cheaper than Accession Stoneskin or Earthen Ward)?

A spell that greatly reduces one player's hate (presumably from all mobs that hate him, because there's no simple way to target a player *and* a mob at the same time)? Cast it on yourself if you're curebombing, or cast it on your favorite suicidal drk/blm/rng/whatever... It doesn't exactly fit any previous game's WHM, but then again, the whole concept of hate control is mostly new to the series. And it *is* a form of protection, in a sense.

A JA that lets you pay for spells with HP instead of MP? This would allow you to make more efficient use of auto-regen, HP from resting, regens on yourself and curagas, but it doesn't exactly seem to fit the style of WHM.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

They don't want all parties to be "WHM or GTFO".

And you suppose "RDM or GTFO" is much better? I mean, I see where you're coming from in the whole "the possibility for multiple healing jobs is a good thing," but when the specialist is misplaced by the supposed "jack," there is an obvious problem with the status quo.

I suppose they could take Haste away from RDMs and make it a WHM-exclusive spell (well, aside from Hastega). As overpowered as RDM undoubtedly is in some contexts, I'm still dubious of that idea, and not just because of the whining it would provoke.

Actually, as much as I like the sound of the idea, it doesn't sound very fair for the Red Mages that have already learned Haste. It isn't even that attractive of an idea in the first place.

And don't discount Hastega! 71-onward, it can become at least as efficient as a RDM and/or WHM Hasting the entire party (and you have to admit, everybody wants Haste). Why more people don't use it, especially since it can be used right alongside Predator Claws for massive damage ever since the Rage/Ward adjustment, is puzzling. Of course, the first response of this thread is a three-part wall-o-text about the much-needed overhauling of the Summoner job, but that's another story.

Pray as a JA,

Benediction. And don't give me that look, because that's as valid as an excuse as Red Mages not getting Doublecast because of Chainspell.

A spell that greatly reduces one player's hate (presumably from all mobs that hate him, because there's no simple way to target a player *and* a mob at the same time)? Cast it on yourself if you're curebombing, or cast it on your favorite suicidal drk/blm/rng/whatever... It doesn't exactly fit any previous game's WHM, but then again, the whole concept of hate control is mostly new to the series. And it *is* a form of protection, in a sense.

This . . . just . . . might . . . work! Less hate on each DD would allow them much more comfort room to deal out damage while keeping hate on the tank . . . however, I can see this running White Mage in to the same problem as Red Mages have with Refresh (having to keep up with the Pax cycle so the EXP doesn't become "gimped" ). However, that problem comes with a buttload of invites, so . . . (I'd much rather WHM just simply get Refresh. They've been pining for a native MP restoration ability, anyways.)

A JA that lets you pay for spells with HP instead of MP? This would allow you to make more efficient use of auto-regen, HP from resting, regens on yourself and curagas, but it doesn't exactly seem to fit the style of WHM.

Devotion - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

Martyr - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

I wouldn't put it entirely beyond WHM for such an Ability.

[Karinya]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

And you suppose "RDM or GTFO" is much better? I mean, I see where you're coming from in the whole "the possibility for multiple healing jobs is a good thing," but when the specialist is misplaced by the supposed "jack," there is an obvious problem with the status quo.

Have you actually seen a 5 member party say "Well, we need a healer but there's only a WHM looking, so I guess we'll just sit in whitegate a while longer"? That's the kind of thing that I meant by "<job> or GTFO": that the party wouldn't be viable at all without that particular job. If SE was ever foolish enough to make RDM, SCH and SMN genuinely non-viable as main healers, that's what would happen - parties of 5 would sit around waiting for a WHM (and only a WHM) to log on. I don't think that would be a good thing.

There are many things wrong with ToAU exp anyway, but I don't think exclusion of WHMs is one of them. Search for high level WHMs and you will find many of them in exp parties; they may not be favored, but they are accepted (like DDs that aren't WAR). But overall, the problem is that a healing specialist is not needed for exp because commonly hunted exp mobs aren't dangerous enough (that's why they're commonly hunted), and WHM doesn't bring enough other kinds of relevant support to the table in addition to their healing ability.

Their specialization is precisely what works against them in the current ToAU exp scene. One WHM, by himself, is too many healers for a merit party.

(I'd much rather WHM just simply get Refresh. They've been pining for a native MP restoration ability, anyways.)

Sublimation - it's not "native", but it works.

Anyway, all jobs have a native MP restoration ability - it's called resting. Clear Mind, gear, and cookies make it much faster than it used to be. If the balance problems introduced by ToAU are ever fixed, parties won't recoil in horror at the mere thought of a job that might rest between fights (or the idea that there might be such a thing as "between fights").


And if WHMs get refresh, exactly what is left for RDMs to do in endgame? They're already often reduced to refreshing the WHMs and healing the lower-priority parties because the boss has ridiculously huge debuff resistance (and when both jobs have refresh on them, there's no doubt whatsoever which is the better healer). The Energizer Bunny Mage is useful *because* it does something other mages can't do. If everybody had Refresh, RDM would be no better off than before anyone had Refresh (and if you haven't heard the horror stories, I'm sure some of the importers here will be glad to tell you).

Merit, too, for that matter - debuffs are pointless there too, although for a different reason. Take away RDM's endurance advantage and all it has left is its inferior spell list and lack of subjob choice.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

You could let red mages keep haste but make it self only. On the subject of heals, it's a difficult one. You could maintain other healing capable mages should only be able to heal at 50% of the efficiency of white mages. Thereby ensuring a party requiring healing takes a dps hit if they take a class other than white mage, they have to take two sub-healers so you lose a dps class. However, it could be argued that the inclusion of two other sub-healing classes would compensate for the lost dps with the inclusion of spells like Refresh, or the offensive capabilities a class like red mage can bring to the table.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

Merit, too, for that matter - debuffs are pointless there too, although for a different reason.

Agree with most of what you wrote, but the above is a bit off.

Dia II:
- Improves party's performance on everything. But, yes, WHM can do that just as well.

Elegy and Slow:
- Improves safety. (Yes, Elegy isn't from RDM; listed for completeness.)

Imps: (Anyone still merit off these?)
- Silence: saves quite a bit of curing MP and adds safety.
- Dispel: gets rid of annoying Blaze Spikes.

Colibri:
- Just Dia II and Elegy normally.
- Slow when no BRD.

Mamool Ja:
- Dispel: All have buffs, mage type especially.
- Silence: Mage and NIN type.
- Slow and/or Elegy: Help keeps up Utsusemi.
- Paralyze: Helpful in slower killing parties; can buy time when silence worn and help tanks.
- Dia II: Improves kill speed.
- Sleep I/II: Keeps Mammol Ja and pets from going after puller during staged pulling.

Trolls: (I like them--no competitions. XD )
- Dispel, Silence, Sleep, Dia: All very useful.
- Slow/Elegy and Paralyze: Also useful--at least for me.


For Colibri, a WHM + BRD (with ring and other cast time reduction gear) can do just as well as RDM + BRD. For Mamool Ja, Imps, and Trolls, however, having a RDM in party is very helpful due the high enfeebling magic skill.

In fact, Mamool Ja and Trolls make me want RDM + WHM both in the back line; the "DD x4, BRD, RDM" setup is only optimal on Colibri.

* * *

Back on topic:

MNK seems to be a very popular job amongst my friends and acquaintances. It has decidedly fewer "activities" than, say, the likes of BRD or RDM.

However, as far as I can tell, frequency of activity aside, it's just as repetitive as BRD, yet people who have both seem to prefer MNK over BRD. (In fact, people seem to prefer any melee job over BRD.)

So, once more: making the more relaxing jobs busier for the sake of making them busier is silly. "More activity" isn't more fun for many people. ._.

[Pteryx]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

Imps: (Anyone still merit off these?)
- Silence: saves quite a bit of curing MP and adds safety.
- Dispel: gets rid of annoying Blaze Spikes.

If they land. Imps are terribly magic-resistant.

As far as a WHM MP ability, I like Saren's idea of a limited-duration hMP buff for WHM, though I likely conceive of it differently: JA, 1-minute duration, 5-minute timer, self-only, boost hMP by your level/3. That's a bit different from everyone else's MP tricks, preserves the idea that WHMs get MP back by resting (see Healer's Roll), and simultaneously encourages and reduces downtime. What more can you really ask? -- Pteryx

[Saren]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

JA, 1-minute duration, 5-minute timer, self-only, boost hMP by your level/3. That's a bit different from everyone else's MP tricks, preserves the idea that WHMs get MP back by resting (see Healer's Roll), and simultaneously encourages and reduces downtime. What more can you really ask? -- Pteryx

Actually this is a lot better than any vague ideas I had, I really like it though I might say perhaps a slightly longer duration (+30 seconds tops). I know people in general are very anti resting now but I really don't mind it; I like the fact that it's different, fits in with healing roll (as Pteryx said) and it's a good limitation on whm.

[Firewind]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

Sublimation - it's not "native", but it works.

Anyway, all jobs have a native MP restoration ability - it's called resting. Clear Mind, gear, and cookies make it much faster than it used to be. If the balance problems introduced by ToAU are ever fixed, parties won't recoil in horror at the mere thought of a job that might rest between fights (or the idea that there might be such a thing as "between fights").

You do realise that WHM can't even look at Sublimation until Lv70 right?

And WHM doesn't even get a decent level in Calm Mind. RDM's is higher or as high IIRC. Look at the MP using classes:

Red Mage: Refresh, can Refill thier MP every 5 mins (or however long the Convert timer is)
Black Mage: Aspir. Lots of merit mobs (since the conversation is about merit parties) can be Asipr'd so it DOES apply. Conserve MP and the best calm Mind in the game is also worth noting.
Blue Mage: Refuelling, Auto-Refresh, MP Drainkiss. Probably a bunch of other MP absorbing abilities.
Paladin: Auto-Refresh. They pretty much ave refresh cast on them by any RDM 24/7 anyway.
Dark Knight: Aspir and the only sspell they ever need to use is Stun anyway.
Scholar: Can pull several hundred MP out of their rears every few minutes. Have a whole bunch of MP cost lowering abliities anyway. Heck thier spells are the most MP efficient in the game.
Summoner: Auto-Refresh again although to be fair SMN does need it more than any other class.
Dancer (Since we're mentioning healers): Don't even need MP to main heal.

Let's see what WHM has in terms of native MP regeneration:

...

No I can't think of anything either. Resting does NOT count. Name me a party in ToaU areas that rest for anything OTHER than the tank dying and I will name you a pig that has sprouted wings.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

Well, assuming you sub summoner you'll have auto refresh from 50 onwards. Unless my memory fails me, although, I've never lasted too long on any of FFXI's mage classes.

[Saren]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

You do realise that WHM can't even look at Sublimation until Lv70 right?

And WHM doesn't even get a decent level in Calm Mind. RDM's is higher or as high IIRC.

Woah, slow down on the rage a little, I'm pretty sure she knows.

Rdm gets the worst clear mind in the game (out of jobs with access to it), behind blue mage even. The order is smn -> blm -> whm/sch -> blu -> rdm. Whm gets level 4 clear mind which is decent. No one complains about rdm being so low (and shouldn't) because convert more than makes up for that, which is on a 10 minute timer by the way (before merits).

Aspir is nice when you get to use it but it's not guaranteed for standard party camps 20-75 that you are going to be able to aspir the mob or that it's going to be worth aspiring the mob (i.e imps). I love being at Mamool Ja staging point for merits just because I can aspir the mage mobs but it should be considered more a perk than a guaranteed way to regain mp. Sure blms tend to be off doing their own thing on mobs that can be aspired but who the hell is going to begrudge them that when they tend to solo most of 40+ and the only way they would be invited to any kind of party but a manaburn is as a main healer....

Sure whm has the worst native mp regain ability options out of all the mage jobs but our natural curing efficiency and /sch has done a LOT to compensate us for that. Light arts is awsome when you get it (and you get it early) and keeps getting better as you level. Sch does get a couple of tricks that whm doesn't get but they have plenty of trade offs and you have to remember that AoE spells are expensive for scholar. We are the first job to get haste and because we have AoE versions of cures naturally instead of having to use stratagem charges to get the effect we can pretty much save our stratagems for Penury which again, we have access to from 20+. I wouldn't be at all suprised if divine seal, penury and curaga hitting for full on 5-6 people is the most efficient cure spell in the game.

Sch: I love sublimation but it's not as user friendly as people who haven't used it seem to think it is, especially when you first get it on sch. Sure you have this amazing ability to store up mp and get a nice lump back ever 4-5 minutes but it stops you resting unless you have stoneskin and the soonest sch can get stoneskin is 56 with /whm because sch doesn't get it natively. You can go /blu with metallic body if you want but the cap on Metallic Body is 127 hit points, I'm not sure you'd hit that cap with /17 blu and you lose out on the enfeebling spells, JAs and job traits from other mage subs. Basically until you hit 56 you probably can't get too much out of sublimation just because it's only really worth keeping sublimation charging while you are standing and shutting it off when you want to rest.

Blu I'm pretty sure only get that one mp drain ability which according to wiki is heavily resisted during the day (i.e probably not worth using 50% of the time) and refuelling is weaker than haste. They are also almost totally limited to in party spells.

Drk if they are only using stun are doing it wrong. Drk absorb spells can be very useful if the mob isn't resistant to dark magic, same goes for drain.

Autorefresh is nice, very nice but it's never going to be enough to keep any mp using job afloat. 1mp/tick (20mp/minute)is certainly not enough to keep a good pld tank in mp, they use more than that just on flash.

Dancer at low levels is very powerful but it's a job that gets no protection buffs, can only cure in party, their haste is a lol5%, sambas don't stack, dancer can't remove petrification/bard songs/doom and the job has almost no place in endgame or against any mob where minimising the mobs TP gain is very important or the mob is hard to hit. As a whm, I have to say I don't feel at all threatened by that.

Edit: because I've only just seen it. The whole party doesn't need to rest for the main healer to be resting, you should be able to squeeze a couple of ticks of rest in pretty frequently once you get used to making the space for yourself to do it in but most whm I think start doing this very early on levelling (i.e in the dunes) By the time you hit very high level, merit there are times where you can haste, regen 2, haste, regen 2 for your whole haste cycle hit rest and not have to get up again till your next haste cycle starts.

[Karinya]

Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

What you are ignoring is that any of those other jobs that can function as a healer (except DNC) *must* sub WHM to do so (in many camps); WHM can sub whatever it likes and get the benefits of one of those other jobs of its choice, including the efficiency of SCH, the auto-refresh of SMN, or the conserve MP of BLM (although SCH's conserve MP is just as good and you can get an actually *usable* aspir). Heck, they can even sub BRD and get MP restoration for themselves and others (albeit only 1/tick and at the cost of some maximum MP). No matter what they sub they still have all the necessary healing and status-curing spells for their party, Raise, Reraise, and Erase - because those are native to WHM, not something that they have to pick a subjob for.

They can't get the refresh of RDM, though.

Maybe SE should split refresh into two spells:

(Proposed) Refresh
Lv 30-35 RDM
30 MP, restores 2 mp/tick. Casting time, duration and recast are the same as the current refresh.
(Proposed) Refresh II
Lv 55-60 RDM
55 MP, restores 4 mp/tick. Casting time, duration and recast are the same as the current refresh. Overwrites and does not stack with the lower level version.

Anyone could sub RDM and get some refresh for themselves or party members at higher levels - SCH/RDM could even accession refresh - but main RDM would still be better refreshers. WHM, SCH, SMN, BLM, basically anyone who uses mp could benefit - even DRKs and BLUs would have a higher chance of someone tossing the low level refresh on them (in a RDM's case, they can toss low level refresh in between castings of refresh II on the real mages of their party).

But the benefit isn't free - you have to sub RDM to get it. It's a choice between that, or auto-refresh, or elemental seal, sleepga and conserve mp, or arts and stratagems... RDM has refresh to compensate for its lack of powerful spells - it makes up for that by casting a lot of spells, quickly, and having MP endurance. So they need to remain the best refreshers to be viable. But they don't need to remain the only refreshers...