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Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

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  • Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

    When talking about Main Healing in Merit Parties, it's hard to ignore Red Mage. A whole slew of Healing Spells, native Healing Skill, three native levels of Fast Cast (plus tons of gear focused on improving casting, in speed and otherwise), Haste, Refresh, and Convert. The later two have earned Red Mages reputations as energizer bunnies: if skilled and geared right, they can just keep going and going, without having to stop to rest. This is their main advantage over the White Mage, the supposed to be De Facto Healer.

    Red Mages, however, are shunned if they ever dare bring out their Swords in public (/innuendo). Their skill levels are a barely-par B at highest, and they don't even have access to very many Weapon Skills, especially without the right subjob. At higher levels, they have hardly any gear to assist in meleeing, and more than a flood of gear which reminds them of the "Mage" in "Red Mage." Maybe there's this thing, but I dunno; it not exactly exclusive to them. Enspells don't exactly help much either, solely excluding assisting their DoT on certain NMs with a Ceremonial Dagger. Also, Elemental Staves. /shiver

    White Mages, on the other hand, are still okay in the Healing department, assuming time for rest. With plenty of exclusive gear in reducing casting times of Cure spells, as well as curing potency, it's pretty clear they were built to heal. Just one problem: their MP pools don't last forever (though, maybe with /SCH, they could last longer), and forever, I hear, is the standard.

    White Mage melee isn't exactly unheard of: it's only looked at as an option if White Mages feel they have nothing better to do, or want to put their B+ Club skill and exclusive access to the most powerful Clubs (Hammers) in the game to use. Square has even acknowledged the "White Mage Option" with this thing. And, of course, no discussion of White Mage melee is complete without mentioning Hexa Strike. White Mages even have a Staff Skill, so that if they're stuck with a Light Staff (I don't think they'll be covering the other elements that much, as Red Mages already have the Enfeebling covered), they can still even bop stuff around with that, and with the 2-Hander update, it's a very viable "melee option." Also, not that it matters much, but they have a D in Shield, as opposed to Red Mage's F, and in defensive spells, Red Mage is only up by one Phalanx.

    Maybe I'm just some misinformed noob who totally overlooked something, just plain doesn't know what he's talking about, or whatever. But, am I the only one who noticed this community-imposed role-reversal of party healer and spellcaster with the option to melee?
    Originally posted by Armando
    No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
    Originally posted by Armando
    Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
    Originally posted by Taskmage
    GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

    REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

    GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

    THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
    Originally posted by Taskmage
    However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
    Matthew 16:15

  • #2
    Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

    I blame the Brady Guide.
    Kindadarii (Bahamut)
    90PUP / 90SMN / 90BRD / 90WHM / 59DNC
    70.3 + 2 Woodworking
    52.2 Synergy


    Breeding Chocobos? Visit Chocobreeder.com to find chocobos in your area!

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    • #3
      Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

      I blame burn parties.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

        Yeah...it's too awkward. I want to be able to harness my tools in EXP parties at a balanced rate. It's why I've been against full-time main-healing for EXP on RDM.

        I went with WHMs for 6 levels and then just stopped after being forced into the healer spot and ended up not being able to keep the tank alive...which is so strange, because the last time I played healer (before ToAU), my convert timer wasn't shot/everyone wasn't doomed to die at some point against a really fucking annoying mob.

        Thus...I blame the Experience Bonus in ToAU Areas. *wants to hack into the game and delete it just because he's getting desperate to find out when things will be balanced again*
        Last edited by Electricity Gone Human; 01-14-2008, 06:12 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

          As far as gear goes, we can always wear Scorpion Harness or Pahluwan. We have access to a good bit of Accuracy including the very affordable Wise set --since Accuracy is really what a RDM needs, after all. After that it's just a matter of eating right and subbing BLU or DRK for the full volley of WS.


          Other notable RDM Melee gearsets:

          Hydra (if you like Dreamland)
          Dusk (if you pi$$ cash)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

            My logic with the Brady guide, is that if you actually read it (as I did when I first picked up the game)...

            Originally posted by Brady Guide, about White Mage
            Even when resting, keep an eye out for monsters.There are a lot of aggressive critters out there that would love to take advantage of an easy meal. As a White Mage, though, it's easy to find plenty of people to protect you!
            .
            .
            .
            Soloing as a White Mage is a difficult and dangerous proposition. There are relatively few spells that cause direct damage to monsters and many of the weapons do not injure them substantially.
            Originally posted by Brady Guide, about Red Mage
            They can attack with melee weapons while weakening monsters with their enfeebling magic and direct-damage spells.
            .
            .
            .
            While not frontline fighters, a Red Mage's ability to deal out modest amounts of damage using physical attacks is definatly useful. It's nice to have a caster who can take a few hits and still survive to cast strong spells while returning the blows with a few of their own.
            Those were direct quotes. I still have my copy, just in case the furnace here at my house breaks down and we need something to burn. I live in Wisconsin, so it gets fairly cold up here this time of year.



            Anyway, I think that kind of mentality crept over and stayed, even though everybody who's owned a Brady Guide (myself included) knows that majority of the information (including but not limited to the job information) sucks or is outright wrong.

            I think that, with the advent of ToAU (which, I've always hated leveling in ToAU zones, even when they first came out) and the xp bonus as mentioned earlier, it certainly didn't help things, with more jobs (read: every melee class) open to a tp burn party setup. Before, when it was restricted to MNK... well, it was restricted to MNK. And those were good days.
            Kindadarii (Bahamut)
            90PUP / 90SMN / 90BRD / 90WHM / 59DNC
            70.3 + 2 Woodworking
            52.2 Synergy


            Breeding Chocobos? Visit Chocobreeder.com to find chocobos in your area!

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            • #7
              Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

              While the Brady guide was the source of all kinds of misconceptions, particularly the blurb about WHM, I do believe the part you bolded--RDM's modest attack capability--is very accurate.

              Problem is, however, everyone else translates "modest" to "gimp."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                Originally posted by KingOfZeal View Post
                I live in Wisconsin, so it gets fairly cold up here this time of year.
                I will probably use mine on Sunday, it's supposed to drop down to 4 degrees here in WI and thats not even factoring in the damn wind chill. Hope Favre can keep that arm from freezing. LOL
                I've leveled rdm a few times. One of the times I did a melee setup and another time a full mage setup. Both have their merits but one thing I can say for certain is that you will not be the healer in a party if you are melee'ing. There is just too much going on for the majority of players to be able to fulfill both roles. And until SE throws rdm a bone and gives us some exclusive good gear or some abilities to set us apart, I just don't see a melee setup as becoming mainstream.
                As far as rdm vs whm in merit parties, yes rdm out shines whm. I've done merit parties on both my whm and my rdm and it was by far better exp on rdm. But one thing I'd like to point out is that a good party doesn't lay solely in the hands of a good rdm. Even a good rdm can't save a party that has melee that go out of their way to pull hate and get raped. When you are throwing out Cure's like water even Convert can't save that party! lol
                Originally posted by Feba
                But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
                Originally posted by Taskmage
                God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
                Originally posted by DakAttack
                ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                  The thing I'm still trying to get my mind wrapped around is the fact White Mages are given a B+ in their weapon of choice, when Red Mages are only given a B in theirs. And the latter is supposed to be the better melee?

                  What I think: Red Mage was assumed to be more accepted as a Melee upon inception, and White Mage was assumed to be naothing more than a Healer, but S-E wanted to give the latter party an ability to melee if they had to. So, White Mage was given a few toys to play with, while Red Mage overall went somewhat neglected in that department, and their magic abilities got more attention insofar as spells and equipment.

                  /equip Tin Foil Hat +1
                  Originally posted by Armando
                  No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
                  Originally posted by Armando
                  Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
                  Originally posted by Taskmage
                  GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

                  REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

                  GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

                  THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
                  Originally posted by Taskmage
                  However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
                  Matthew 16:15

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                    Originally posted by Yellow Mage View Post
                    ...while Red Mage overall went somewhat neglected...
                    AMEN
                    Originally posted by Feba
                    But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
                    Originally posted by Taskmage
                    God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
                    Originally posted by DakAttack
                    ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                      Originally posted by Sabaron View Post
                      the very affordable Wise set
                      I spent 1.5 million on mine.

                      I'm sad now.

                      everyone else translates "modest" to "gimp."
                      Which is actually the source of a lot of problems in FFXI.
                      Last edited by Mhurron; 01-16-2008, 06:16 AM. Reason: Don't quote and work late. Stupid computers making people call me after hours.
                      I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are.

                      HTTP Error 418 - I'm A Teapot - The resulting entity body MAY be short and stout.

                      loose

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                        Originally posted by Yellow Mage View Post
                        White Mages are given a B+ in their weapon of choice,
                        Sole reason why I even bother to cap club and get whm hauby ;3
                        <.< now to be a dd in actual parties for a change.... v.v;

                        Ontopic: Bottom line. Rdm gives people what they want from a whm, while whm can't give people what rdm has of their own, there for rdm/whm = whm, while whm != rdm/whm.
                        Adventures of Akashimo Hakubi & Nekoai Nanashi


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                        • #13
                          Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                          This topic again.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                            Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                            This topic again.
                            Most likely since you brought it back.
                            I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are.

                            HTTP Error 418 - I'm A Teapot - The resulting entity body MAY be short and stout.

                            loose

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Red Mage versus White Mage: Role Reversal?!?

                              Originally posted by KingOfZeal View Post
                              I think that, with the advent of ToAU (which, I've always hated leveling in ToAU zones, even when they first came out) and the xp bonus as mentioned earlier, it certainly didn't help things, with more jobs (read: every melee class) open to a tp burn party setup. Before, when it was restricted to MNK... well, it was restricted to MNK. And those were good days.
                              Quoted because I thought it ought to be said again. And I didn't want to type all that myself

                              Side note: It is almost like you read my mind KingOfZeal... *puts on tinfoil hat* And hides gil in bank.
                              RESTLESSTORNADO OF RAMUH
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