Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

RDMs and BRDs held their breath when COR was first described, with all its support and enfeebling spells. I can't imagine what another enfeebler would make them do.

If SE added another support job along the lines of what a RDM or BRD could do, it really wouldn't affect the usefulness of RDM and BRD. It's not like all the RDMs and BRDs out there would start losing invites because of the new job. You never lose an invite to another job... you lose it to another player.

The reason there are always so many DDs seeking and not enough supports isn't because there aren't enough support role jobs in the game. It's because most players find those support jobs to be boring, and just don't want to play them.

[Feba]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Blm, Whm and Rdm all work the same *except* they each have unique spells to let them do something different then the others.

Uh-huh, they're starter jobs, they're supposed to be simple. Like someone else mentioned, SE really has worked themselves into a corner with the way mages work in FFXI.

Look at the nonstandard jobs, they are significantly different.
BRD- Buffs the party without using MP, uses a wide collection of instruments to enhance it's spells
BST- Controls animals to help them fight
PLD- Uses spells to keep the monster on itself while mitigating damage
DRK- Does a lot of damage, but at the expense of generating a lot of hate which it can't manage, so has to be used carefully.
NIN- Spells without MP, but at the cost of items (money), uses shadows to mitigate the hate it earns (of course, this is exploited, but still)
DRG- Uses jumps to control hate, uses subjob to manage a Wyvern
SAM- generates a lot of TP for the party to use
COR- Buffs without MP, but at the cost of randomness, or even harming the party.
BLU- Has to change it's spells around and plan out what it wants to cast, it able to change it's abilities to perform a wide collection of tasks
PUP- Has to change out items to affect the way it's pet will act

As you can see, yes, there is a lot of overlapping, like BLU PUP and DRG all being able to customize themselves, or BRD COR and NIN casting spells without MP, but they all play differently. As to jobs performing the same function, in a simplified way yes, but they accomplish that function in different ways. The second you start releasing jobs that are just recycled RDMs with different stats and spells is the second you might as well replace the Job system with a skill tree.

[Amele]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

The reason there are always so many DDs seeking and not enough supports isn't because there aren't enough support role jobs in the game. It's because most players find those support jobs to be boring, and just don't want to play them.

well.. yes, and.. no.

waaaayy back in the day (pre-bard acceptance) the standard exp party in the 50's was:

tank DD DD DD healer support (with one of the DD frequently being a blackmage for crabs).

then bards got accepted as omg awesome by the NA player base, and gradually the 'standard' exp party in the 50's started to look more like:

tank DD DD healer support support. - when two support weren't available, (and at endgame) it was more common to go: tank DD DD DD support/healer, support.

in the brave new world of AU (in the 50's) you now have 33% more jobs available to fill support roles, so the tank DD DD healer support support pattern is more prevalent. - I've even been part of parties that were - nin/war sam/war cor brd brd smn which was highly successful - but basically excludes a very large swath of DD and healer jobs.

this means that a significantly smaller number of DD are being invited to exp than before, even in areas that aren't Colibri/Puk. etc.

add *another* support (and one which would presumably have both haste and hp/mp recovery abilities) and the number of DD invited will be even lower, because the 3 support party will be even more viable.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Feba, since when do CORs buffs "harm" a PT? Its not like SE gives the PT Joker Doom if we bust.

The bust only affects the COR and the Bust effect is opposite that of the unlucky number's buff. Unlucky = weakest buff is reversed on COR, a busted Hunter's Roll would result in slightly diminished accuracy).The PT misses a buff for a minute, that's the negative for them if that's really a major negative at all.

As for the "support classes are boring" bit... how so? They're by far the busiest jobs in the game.

[Callisto]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Feba, since when do CORs buffs "harm" a PT? Its not like SE gives the PT Joker Doom if we bust.

The bust only affects the COR and the Bust effect is opposite that of the unlucky number's buff. Unlucky = weakest buff is reversed on COR, a busted Hunter's Roll would result in slightly diminished accuracy).The PT misses a buff for a minute, that's the negative for them if that's really a major negative at all.

Correct. And no comment on RDM being a 'simple' job lol, my macros and 50+ pieces of gear I lug around would indicate otherwise.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Yeah just because RDM gets easy invites doesn't make it simple.

RDM is like running around with a stack of plates, trying not to drop them while you run. Except what you are running on is hot coals and you are being chased by cannibals unaffected by the hot coals. If you drop one plate, someone starts yelling "Dispel" or "refresh."

That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.

[Feba]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

And no comment on RDM being a 'simple' job lol, my macros and 50+ pieces of gear I lug around would indicate otherwise.

I'm saying the concept is simple, not always playing it.

Feba, since when do CORs buffs "harm" a PT? Its not like SE gives the PT Joker Doom if we bust.

A support job that isn't supporting the party (as in a bust) is effectively dead weight, so you're holding the party back and harming it's experience. Of course, I actually do like the COR job, but saying that it doesn't harm the party at all to bust is incorrect.

[Ziero]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Look at the nonstandard jobs, they are significantly different.
BRD- Buffs the party without using MP, uses a wide collection of instruments to enhance it's spells
BST- Controls animals to help them fight
PLD- Uses spells to keep the monster on itself while mitigating damage
DRK- Does a lot of damage, but at the expense of generating a lot of hate which it can't manage, so has to be used carefully.
NIN- Spells without MP, but at the cost of items (money), uses shadows to mitigate the hate it earns (of course, this is exploited, but still)
DRG- Uses jumps to control hate, uses subjob to manage a Wyvern
SAM- generates a lot of TP for the party to use
COR- Buffs without MP, but at the cost of randomness, or even harming the party.
BLU- Has to change it's spells around and plan out what it wants to cast, it able to change it's abilities to perform a wide collection of tasks
PUP- Has to change out items to affect the way it's pet will act

As you can see, yes, there is a lot of overlapping, like BLU PUP and DRG all being able to customize themselves, or BRD COR and NIN casting spells without MP, but they all play differently. As to jobs performing the same function, in a simplified way yes, but they accomplish that function in different ways. The second you start releasing jobs that are just recycled RDMs with different stats and spells is the second you might as well replace the Job system with a skill tree.

And a Time Mage could be a strong damage dealer using non elemental spells (something no other job has making them different) while using unique debuffs to weaken the monster and have a few buffs for pt members. The type of spells it would use would make it more then unique enough to be included in this game, while being MP based would keep it similar to it's classic incarnations.

And again, the only thing that makes Whm, Rdm and Blm different from each other is the spells they can cast. Regardless of when they're available, that's all that makes them different. War, Thf and Mnk are all starter jobs too, but they're much different then each other. And though Sam, Drk and Drg are all 'advanced' jobs, they're all basically used the same exact way as War and Mnk. Drk, Mnk, Drg, Sam, and War don't have anything too drastically different about them other then their main weapon choices and a few JAs. They all focus on the same stats and the same goal in the pt, to kill the mob. The only differences is a few JAs and JTs, which is differences enough. Just like unique spells would be enough to make Timemage unique.

For a new job to be added sucessfully imo, it would need three things:

Functionality: It would have to be able to hold it's own in a party slot.
Balance: It couldn't be too overpowered or too weak.
Uniquness: It would have to have something that sets it apart from other jobs.

A Timemage could be functional by giving minor support, with decent enfeebling and Dmg dealing capabilities. Sort of like Cor does by being a decent DD and buffer with minor enfeebling abilities. It would be balanced similar to all other 'mage' jobs by having an MP pool, recast timers and soft caps on spell potency. And it would be unique by having it's own list of JSE spells as well as some 'repeat' spells already in game, while also having some unique JTs and JAs. Though it would work as other mages work, by casting spells based on spell timers and MP costs, it's effects would be different from other mage jobs.

[Murphie]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.

No, that sounds about right.

Saying that support jobs are "boring" is probably not the best way to get the point across. Saying that support jobs don't do WTFPWN damage in a genre where a lot of people like to do WTFPWN damage is more accurate. Many people don't play support jobs because they don't like support roles. It's not a lack of jobs, it's a lack of interested players.

[Mhurron]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Yeah just because RDM gets easy invites doesn't make it simple.
RDM is like running around with a stack of plates, trying not to drop them while you run. Except what you are running on is hot coals and you are being chased by cannibals unaffected by the hot coals. If you drop one plate, someone starts yelling "Dispel" or "refresh."
That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.

I admit, I laughed. That was funny.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

I'm saying the concept is simple, not always playing it.
A support job that isn't supporting the party (as in a bust) is effectively dead weight, so you're holding the party back and harming it's experience. Of course, I actually do like the COR job, but saying that it doesn't harm the party at all to bust is incorrect.

There a lot of BRDs in a constant state of Bust then.

Busting a roll just means ther isn't another buff for 30-45 seconds. That's hardly a deadweight. Double busts happen, true, but they are rather rare.

[Murphie]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

I have to agree with BBQ here. I wouldn't say busting on a roll is analogous to a detrimental effect on the party. It doesn't make things better, but it also doesn't make the situation worse.

[Amele]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

There a lot of BRDs in a constant state of Bust then.
Busting a roll just means ther isn't another buff for 30-45 seconds. That's hardly a deadweight. Double busts happen, true, but they are rather rare.

not sure why you're singling out bards here - honestly.

there's a difference between a bard picking the wrong song and a cor busting. the bard can replace that song - at will - 1 to 75. (which takes 8 seconds tops)

assuming you meant it as: "they aren't supporting the party (not singing songs)" then that's no different than a cor who doesn't make rolls, or a redmage who doesn't cast spells, or a tank who doesn't try to hold hate. that's not "Bust" (being a job issue making the party less effective) that's a deadweight player that should be dropped.

30-45 seconds without a buff is enough to possibly kill chain in some circumstances (I know I know, one buff shouldn't make the difference between infy chain and killing too slow for 6+ but if your kill times are close, the lost buff plus time lost rolling again could potentially put you on the wrong side of it) and double busts shouldn't happen unless 6 is unlucky on the second buff (are there any where six is unlucky?)

[Feba]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Busting a roll also means that you only have one buff on until Bust wears off, though.

Again, I'm not saying that COR is a deadweight job, I'm saying that when a COR busts, they aren't achieving their full potential (and same when they get anything other than a lucky roll or an 11), which changes how the job is played compared to a buffing job like BRD, where there's no real chance of failure. Not doing the maximum possible lowers the amount of EXP gained, which is harmful to a PT. Of course, nobody wants COR to get perfect rolls 100% of the time, as it would break the game and make the job bland.

[Callisto]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Yeah just because RDM gets easy invites doesn't make it simple.

RDM is like running around with a stack of plates, trying not to drop them while you run. Except what you are running on is hot coals and you are being chased by cannibals unaffected by the hot coals. If you drop one plate, someone starts yelling "Dispel" or "refresh."

That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.

You sir, win. You are awarded one(1) internets.