Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

[Feba]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Because they added new playstyles to the game. Having to manage hate and use your wyvern effectively is different, as is being a TP fountain that works for the rest of the party.

[Murphie]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Why did they add Dragoon & Samurai when there were already a number of DD classes in the original game?

Because they didn't have classes that did what Dragoon and Samurai do. I'm not sure why you would think that DRG and SAM are anything like WAR or MNK or DRK.

[Malacite]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

There was a quote from someone at the Square Enix party where they confirmed that yes, it is a time travel themed expansion.


Time mage would be nifty, but there's much better choices;

Geomancer, Dancer, Mystic Knight (dear god yes) and Chemist to name IMO the best/most unique choices.

I'm currently working on some builds for those classes I'd like to submit to SE, or at the very least get some public opinion on. Basically here's what I got atm;



Geomancer: Would either have a list of spells learned from battling in certain areas, or would simply have a geomancy command with a fairly low timer (30s to 1 min max) that would generate a random effect based on terrain. Weather will now affect geomancy as it is a new feature unique to FFXI (as a part of the FF series I mean) and adds a whole new dimension to the job. Bells could also be brought back as equipment (either in the weapon or ranged slot)

Dancer would work the same way as bard, but would equip whips and those weird clamp thingies gypsie (sp?) dancers use (sorry, the name escapes me but you can hold on in each hand and you clap them to make sounds). Maybe even maracas for fun. Their music would focus chiefly on debuffing the mob in unique ways such as MP DoT while possibly having the odd buff here and there (like how BRD has 3 enfeebs).

I'm amazed Dancer wasn't in ToAU (or Mystic Knight for that matter) given the arabian setting. But then I doubt SE would want to have any kind of Harem scenario in Alzhabi > - > (hello M rating, even if it's only implied)

Mystic Knight is a bit trickier, especially in terms of game balance. in FFV their spells were based on magic you already knew and your physical attacks were "converted" into spells. However, your STR and weapon damage rating still came into the damage calculation (unless it's an enfeeb, in which case you always do 0 damage and try to land the enfeeb)

RDM having enspells does not disqualify this class. Enspells are a complete joke by comparison, and I would deeply love to have this classic Tank/DD class come back. The trick would be in balancing it's MP and spell blade costs/recasts so that you can't abuse the inherent power of the job.

Basically the job would have A+ enhancing magic, and each spellblade would be made into new scrolls (with the exception of Ga spells; no AoE melee that's a bad AoE melee!) I think it would give all the people (like myself) who are craving for a real mage-fighter what they want. BLU is already a very good mage-fighter, but it doesn't use it's magic to directly enhance it's melee.


Lasty there's Chemist.

Basically a "money WHM", the job would have limited access to guns (ala COR) but without any inherent DD traits to back it up, so as not to rival RNG or COR in terms of DD. The main purpose would be to act as a substitute for WHM/RDM who can also do some damage on the side if s/he isn't busy.

This job would be ideal in a TP burn setting I think, and best of all it would drive up the demand for medicines and give all us starving alchemists a nice cash flow. It would also give SE an excuse to make potions cheap and/or stack to 99 and finally add Phoenix downs as an item (usable only by CHM)

[Lunaryn]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Because they didn't have classes that did what Dragoon and Samurai do. I'm not sure why you would think that DRG and SAM are anything like WAR or MNK or DRK.

I think this speaks more to the implementation of mages as being relatively flat compared to melee. The expansion's new mage jobs have avoided similarity problems in part by introducing entirely new mechanics and in part by hybridizing them with existing melee mechanics (Blue Mage being a far more capable front-line DD than Red Mage, Corsair sharing in the marksmanship proficiencies of Ranger).

The viability of a new mage job is going to be less a matter of what spells that job can bring to the table and more a matter of what mechanics are invented to give that job a unique method of operation.

[Murphie]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

I think this speaks more to the implementation of mages as being relatively flat compared to melee. The expansion's new mage jobs have avoided similarity problems in part by introducing entirely new mechanics and in part by hybridizing them with existing melee mechanics (Blue Mage being a far more capable front-line DD than Red Mage, Corsair sharing in the marksmanship proficiencies of Ranger).

The viability of a new mage job is going to be less a matter of what spells that job can bring to the table and more a matter of what mechanics are invented to give that job a unique method of operation.

True. But then again, I wouldn't exactly consider COR to be a mage. Still, they were able to create a new job that did things in a new way, and thus avoided making COR redundant. If they can manage to do that in the future with any other new jobs, great. If not, then I'd rather they didn't bother.

So many people seem to offer up these job ideas without first answering the question of whether or not their idea is really needed. Do we need a mage that specializes in time magic? Not really. As has already been pointed out, other mages that currently exist can do most everything that a Time Mage could, with a handful of exceptions. I know people like the idea of new jobs, and new AF, and all of that, but there isn't any reason why every single job that has ever existed in a Final Fantasy game has to be in FFXI.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

True. But then again, I wouldn't exactly consider COR to be a mage. Still, they were able to create a new job that did things in a new way, and thus avoided making COR redundant. If they can manage to do that in the future with any other new jobs, great. If not, then I'd rather they didn't bother.
So many people seem to offer up these job ideas without first answering the question of whether or not their idea is really needed. Do we need a mage that specializes in time magic? Not really. As has already been pointed out, other mages that currently exist can do most everything that a Time Mage could, with a handful of exceptions. I know people like the idea of new jobs, and new AF, and all of that, but there isn't any reason why every single job that has ever existed in a Final Fantasy game has to be in FFXI.

I think the best way to examine it is not so much testing the absense of the basic themes of a particular FF job wrt FFXI's job collection overall, but rather exploring what new themes that job can inspire and some proposed mechanics to carry those themes and how those proposed mechanics would complement or overlap the existing job implementations. So far I haven't seen any real speculation on this point, only a simple listing of traditional spacetime spells citing which have or have not already been implemented in FFXI. I believe the OP was hoping to inspire some creativity, even though not very much was offered to start with; even less has followed, with the exception of some suggestion of possible implementations of other jobs.

The biggest obstacle to some of the more obvious ways to provide a unique implementation is that FFXI is a realtime game, so things that would make the flow of combat significantly non-linear would not seem particularly feasible. Even though a time-travel-oriented expansion might provide ways to bend this a little, job abilities which are mission-specific are an obvious non-starter in a game where jobs are leveled individually.

However, on the time side of things, there might be some options to consider with regard to producing effects on a time delay, with consequences as rudimentary as being able to magic-burst two spells on the same chain (one of which was cast in advance but delayed) to more sophisticated options such as THF-style hate control (e.g. a time-delayed spell could momentarily turn a mob in the direction you previously were standing after you moved, or even look like it came from another person standing near where you were).

On the space side of things, the most obvious option that seems particularly viable would be along the lines of the ability to decrease or increase a target's AoE ranges by a certain factor. Non-elemental damage has also been mentioned (and I think DoT may be more appropriate than nukes for a lot of this), and there may even be something to be said for the kiting potential of a job capable of producing prepared distractions along their path. Erecting barriers or obscuring battle is also a thought, perhaps in terms of link/aggro control/avoidance, or perhaps even in protecting the back line from stray hate, though care would need to be taken to avoid damaging the game balance or allowing this job to become a perceived absolute necessity by way of too perfect a defense in either role.

This is not meant to represent how I think Time Mage will or should appear in FFXI, but rather in the hopes that it might be a springboard for greater discussion of what the job could or could not be and what it might represent as a concept.

[Murphie]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Personally, I'm not of the opinion that further discussion is at all necessary. I guess for fun, but honestly, I don't find it all that engaging.

Then again, it's clear that a lot of other people do think it's both enjoyable and necessary (for some reason), so I'll leave them to it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

I think this speaks more to the implementation of mages as being relatively flat compared to melee. The expansion's new mage jobs have avoided similarity problems in part by introducing entirely new mechanics and in part by hybridizing them with existing melee mechanics (Blue Mage being a far more capable front-line DD than Red Mage, Corsair sharing in the marksmanship proficiencies of Ranger).

The viability of a new mage job is going to be less a matter of what spells that job can bring to the table and more a matter of what mechanics are invented to give that job a unique method of operation.

First you call COR a mage... (Support class=/= mage)
Then you call it a hybrid... (its gambler)

/gets out the Coffinmaker.

Run.

[Emerald Melios]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Because they didn't have classes that did what Dragoon and Samurai do. I'm not sure why you would think that DRG and SAM are anything like WAR or MNK or DRK.

....because they fight on the front-lines and (normally) use weaponskills?

[Murphie]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

....because they fight on the front-lines and (normally) use weaponskills?

Is this a question? If so it's not a very well thought out one. If it's an attempt to give a snotty reply, it's also not very well thought out.

If the only thing that defined the various melee jobs was fighting on the front line and using weapon skills then you might have a point, but it's not, so you don't.

Try again.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Honestly I can't see them add any more jobs. We already have a lot, and many of them are being wasted.

[robinkle]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Does Time mage need to be just like in FFT?

I think time mage can be a success in the game, they just got to make it suitable for the game.

By thinking of the word "time". I think teleport, time machine, clock, slow, haste.

Time mage could for example be a healer. where by casting a spell on a party member, it would put you back in to an earlier state lets say 10 sec ago or back to the HP the pt member had before he got hit last time. Means the TIM (Time mage ) gotta pay attention.

Or maby a spell to put the mp back to earlier state too. maby status effects too.

An ability or spell that makes you pop up behind the enemy.
Maby good with thf sub. what if time mage could use a decent weapon for that. Maby an entierly new weapon., a sledge hammer maby sort of a 2 handed club/hammer. where the WS can have temporarily effects like: "Stop" "Death" "Lvl Down." on top of the regular WS dmg.
When you pop up behind enemy you can loose emnity for example, so its usefull even without THF sub.

An ability/spell that boost the lvl of party a member temporarily.
Would be fun to see lvl 78 on the menu once in a while.
With a penalty for exp. Hoping it will go back before enemy dies.. or so that the pt member can cancel it on top of the screen.
Could be usefull against other things, like gods or something else big.

A spell/ability called rush or something, that cuts down ability timers unlike haste that cuts down magic timers.

Slow Cast. a spell that makes the magic casting time of the enemy go slower.

2hr could be anything: Haste and Rush the party. Or Make party pop up behind the enemy and loose emnity, so enemy despawns. endless possibilities.

I dont think this would have any effect on WHM and RDM. well at least not more then what BLU did. At least if TIM can work as both DD and mage. (players would like to be DD anyways).

[Lunaryn]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

First you call COR a mage... (Support class=/= mage)
Then you call it a hybrid... (its gambler)
/gets out the Coffinmaker.
Run.

I'm attempting to draw a broad distinction between melee and mage/caster jobs (similar to the rough and somewhat imperfect distinction in FFT between jobs descended from Squire vs. jobs descended from Chemist). COR represents a caster job in that its primary mechanic is a form of spellcasting (in this same vein, BRD and NIN are also caster jobs, despite having radically different roles from each other and significantly different implementations from the classic mage jobs). This is imperfect in pure mechanic terms since rolls are accessed via a JA rather than the magic menu, but the implementation is still significantly reminiscent of spells (and the restriction imposed by JA activation is reminiscent of bloodpacts).

NIN would of course be an example of a hybrid here that comes down pretty heavily on the melee side in terms of effective focus (despite having only one unique melee mechanic, dual wield), but its caster component is still absolutely vital to effective use of the job.

[Shadowneko]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

Lasty there's Chemist.

Basically a "money WHM", the job would have limited access to guns (ala COR) but without any inherent DD traits to back it up, so as not to rival RNG or COR in terms of DD. The main purpose would be to act as a substitute for WHM/RDM who can also do some damage on the side if s/he isn't busy.

This job would be ideal in a TP burn setting I think, and best of all it would drive up the demand for medicines and give all us starving alchemists a nice cash flow. It would also give SE an excuse to make potions cheap and/or stack to 99 and finally add Phoenix downs as an item (usable only by CHM)

If you wana do Chemist/alchemist you forgot about the "mix" command(used in many an FF game). Instead of just medicines(although I can see using things like poision pots and Anima) you just have this as a JA with a recast time of like say a cure spell. Then you can just have tools and/or special items that stack to 99. A smart chemist would mix up some fun combination effects such as casting 2 buffs at once or even mix up thing like Anima with tools to hurt the mob. A mix list would be neccary to learn the right combinations, but I would also put level limits on certain combos...say a lvl 1 chemist can't mix up the same killer combos as a 75 chemist...but that's entirely posible ^^



For the rest of you: fun discussion ^^(I need to come up with weird stuff more often)

[Ziero]

Re: Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

First off, in answer to the OPs question, yes Time Mage is a possibility. Right now everything is possible because we know so little. Time Mage being probable is another story all together.

To those who say it's 'not needed', well Blu isn't needed, Cor isn't needed, Smn isn't needed, Sam and Drg weren't needed. And yet, here they all are. Because they were *wanted*. There's absolutely no reason not to add new jobs into this game because being able to be every job with one character is one of it's biggest features. Not adding new jobs over time is basically ignoring that feature while telling it's players, who are specifically asking for these jobs, to f' off. There will be new jobs in time, whether it's this update or the next, it's all a matter of time.

And to the one who said new spells didn't make a job unique, Blm, Whm and Rdm all work the same *except* they each have unique spells to let them do something different then the others. Having a few spells overlap, and really the only spell I see causing any trouble towards having a Time Mage in game is slow II, does not mean a new job who focuses and excels in said type of spells can't exist. Every job added will fall into only so many categories, it will either cause large amounts of damage, keep the monsters attention to protect other classes or support the other jobs. Some classes may overlap between those three functions, but every job does at least one of those things.

Melee DDs are interchangable, a Drg can replace a Sam who can replace a War. Mages have a bit more desirability because there are so few who can replace each other, but if need be a Whm can be replaced by a Smn who can be replaced by a Rdm who can even be replaced by a willing Blm if need be. Because there are only so many functions needed in a party to be filled, and far more jobs that can fill that slot, overlapping of functions is gaurenteed to happen. So in that sense, not being 'unique' in function does not automatically disgard a job's viability to be added in this game.

And though it hasn't been said yet, it's almost inevitable that it will be in topics like this, current in game job imbalances should not prevent new jobs from being added. If a perfect measure of job balance were needed before adding a new job, then we would never get any new jobs because they can never be perfectly balanced. There will always be a 'better' class and there will always be a 'worst' class as determined by the players themselves. Even if it's only by a slight margin, players will always be able to tell which is the strongest and which is the weakest.