So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

[Shota]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Squeenix should just add another dedicated, main healer class! Nothing that would rival the WHM, but just as good and a little more fun than than just standing there clicking heal!

Maybe a more melee style and the more dmg ur doing adds to how much more healing you can do per spell! [just an idea]

[Raydeus]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

The problem with support jobs in FFXI is not endemic to the support jobs themselves.

The problem is that the game was designed around a demographic balance that simply does not exist in any MMO playerbase

I quote this because that's pretty much what this is all about.

Pair that with the individualist attitude of players (specially within the NA community) and you'll see why there's such an imbalance in job choices.

In the end the amount of (active) support/healer players is minimal compared to that of DD players out there, so the burn style of playing (be it mana or tp) seems much more apropiate for the reality of the community. I wouldn't be surprised if one day we would see a 5DD + 1 healer/support becoming the standard manaburn-like.

After all, looking at the jobs available you'll find (only considering party value):

Starting jobs:
4 DD (WAR, MNK, BLM, THF)
2 H/S (WHM, RDM)

Advanced jobs:
2 S (BRD, COR)
2 T/DD (PLD, NIN)
1 Unknown, maybe DD/S (SMN)
7 DD (BST, BLU, DRK, DRG, PUP, RNG, SAM)

That means the party setup considering an equal distribution ratio among players/jobs available would have to be with 4-5 out of 6 spots filled by DD, which could or could not include a tank, and only 1 or 2 spots filled by a support and/or healer job.

Not counting BST and maybe PUP and considering the lack of popularity of support/healer jobs you'll fall under the 5-1 formation, so just going by the numbers alone the game seems like it was designed for a burn setup.

I wonder if WotG will change that.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Let's say they make another healing class, and techincally they did with BLU, what happens to another class that's a dedicated healer?

The same people don't play it that didn't play WHM. Unless said job brings a totally different dynamic to the table - as Chemist possibly could - nothing is going to change. Chemist would be a temp-item/tool based healer, totally unhindered by MP, which changes things a little in terms of endurace. But if you do that, cost could be come a factor for the job and make it unattractive to other players.

We can have people pick up a new healer or tank class, but ultimately, more people will still play DD classes and the problem persists.

You'd think DD + Buffs would make COR attractive and it does for those dedicated to the job, but its cost and the responsibility COR has to a PT that makes it less attractive. Support classes take on an added dose of responsibility with PTs that melees don't have to deal with. Buffing, pulling, possibly backup curing all take a degree of priority depending on your sub. COR, RDM and BRD are easy to play and invite, but they are not autoattack-and-go-AFK jobs. They're constantly moving

Seriously, I'm so wired on how busy RDM, BRD, COR, RNG and BLU are that I can't stand levelling many other jobs because they feel so slow. I don't know how SAMs and WARs stay awake. BST is the exception because BST has to watch every little thing they do or they'll end up dead with no one to raise them. BST gets the added effect of "paranoia."

It makes me sit back and laugh at all the melees kicking around fTP and DPS equations as if auto attacking and a WS macro is rocket science.

[Armando]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

It makes me sit back and laugh at all the melees kicking around fTP and DPS equations as if auto attacking and a WS macro is rocket science.

In all fairness, those melees doing research are the ones that actually give a fuck about what they're doing in a party and are also the ones that don't suck so hard they make you want to rant about how stupid they are in the Pet Peeves thread.

Sorry, but I found that comment a bit out of place considering the main complaint about anything in this game boils down to "people are stupid." Don't be a player hater bbq, a good player is still a good player regardless of how stupidly simple his favorite job is ;o

[Malacite]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Squeenix should just add another dedicated, main healer class! Nothing that would rival the WHM, but just as good and a little more fun than than just standing there clicking heal!

Maybe a more melee style and the more dmg ur doing adds to how much more healing you can do per spell! [just an idea]

So basically RDM >_ >

[Icemage]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

To counter the idea that support jobs are rare, go talk to ANY HNMLS member, and ask them how many people in their LS have a support job levelled to 75. Then ask them how often those support jobs actually appear when people gather for an event.

The answer will typically be: Majority of HNMLS members will have a support job levelled. Only a small minority will actually bring those jobs to an event if given the choice.

Most players consider playing support a chore. Even the Bards and Red Mages that I generally run into are doing it because it's easier to get merits or XP on those jobs as opposed to a damage or tank job.

If DD and tank jobs were more self-sufficient, you'd see almost no one playing RDM, BRD, or WHM. It is only because demand is so high that any number of people have these jobs levelled.


Icemage

[Shota]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

So basically RDM >_ >

No not even close to what I'm thinking!

[Raydeus]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

No not even close to what I'm thinking!

But it is, just change RDM's sword/dagger rating to A-, enhance Enspell dmg and/or add tier II Enspells (bye bye MTK ) and that's what you get.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I think one important part you're missing is the whole "the more damage you deal, the more damage you heal" concept, which could work out to be an interesting healer class, if all the details are handled well.

But, everything else, Red Mage.

[Silent Howler]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

For me, Rdm isn't what comes to mind, but rather Pld with Spirit Taker.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Sorry, but I found that comment a bit out of place considering the main complaint about anything in this game boils down to "people are stupid." Don't be a player hater bbq, a good player is still a good player regardless of how stupidly simple his favorite job is ;o

Well, I didn't mean you per se. You and VZX will take those numbers and break them down in a way all can understand. I should have made the distinction that there are those that take those numbers seriously and make them useful and then there's those that talk loudly with numbers and don't cover all the angles.

I saw a rather amusing thread today on KI talking about DPS with Joyeuse, Jambiya, Suppa, Brutal while using /NIN in meripo. The OP was going on and on about how it was a great option then Darus (probably the first NA COR to 75, if not the very first) came in to back the data.

I think at some point the assertion was even made that with Haste this was all better than using a gun. Um, sure, if you don't have /RNG and a Joyeuse.

But the data wasn't even weighed against /RNG, the DPS didn't even consider the delays Phantom Roll and Double Up would create. Oh and Darus doesn't have a Joyeuse. So basically all this data boiled down to was the justification to sub /NIN in merit for no useful reason as opposed to pulling. Unless we want to consider COR not getting hit useful.

Anyway, I took my original point too far, I apologize.

To counter the idea that support jobs are rare, go talk to ANY HNMLS member, and ask them how many people in their LS have a support job levelled to 75. Then ask them how often those support jobs actually appear when people gather for an event.

The answer will typically be: Majority of HNMLS members will have a support job levelled. Only a small minority will actually bring those jobs to an event if given the choice.

Most players consider playing support a chore. Even the Bards and Red Mages that I generally run into are doing it because it's easier to get merits or XP on those jobs as opposed to a damage or tank job

EXACTLY.

To put it another way, let me tell you just about everyone of my Limbus runs so far. To sum them all up, since I play COR and enjoy it, I have no problem coming as COR. But there are 3 of 4 people at these events I know have a 75 BRD, they see my COR and they go gear thier MNK or BLU. Meanwhile there's a whole PT full of melees that could use a March or Minuet song during Limbus and there's a WHM who we couldn't fit into my mage PT.

But they come as thier melee job anyway. So SMNs and WHMs are having to rest and I'm now having to be passed around the alliance. Its bloody annoying because its easy to trot off to to MH in Port Jeuno and fix that.

Meanwhile, I can honestly see the annoyance of coming all the way out to somewhere like, say, Dragon's Aery as you WAR and being told to come back WHM. Deep down, most people don't want to camp this shit to start with, much less trot accross all the zones required as a job they dislike playing.

I'm pondering a server tranfer and considering not ever bring up my BRD in a conversation ever again because I know the moment someone knows Foobar is a BRD that his BST would never see endgame activity. Its not that I dislike BRD itself, it was as fun as COR from 1-75, its more to the end that as loved as the job is, some people can't see it as more than a manabucket at endgame. If all the job is going to be is a merit monkey and manabucket, its not fun.

BRD got to tank for a little while, but now its back to where it was at endgame. And with CORs not exactly infiltrating endgame, BRD is still the BLM or SMN's manabitch. Oh look, there's RDM kiting, enfeebling, Curing and CS/Stunning. I think I'll play ballad again and hope elegy sticks this time.

Is it any wonder I prefer COR? I get to buff, shoot stuff, enhance enfeebles and help sleep stuff. COR doesn't lose versatility at endgame, it gains it. I get to put all those mage subs to work and /RNG is still useful.

For BRD and WHM particulary, there's no growth. BRD only loses versatility, WHM never really changes. BRD/NIN was great for a while outside of merits, BRD could tank endgame mobs. Of course, people MPKed with it and that's why it stopped.

I think BRD and WHM, in particular, just need a little something to break the monotony and make thier roles interesting at endgame. Maybe the answer lies in the forthcoming expansion jobs, that's always possible, but we only really got a good sub with BLU in ToA.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

... the lack of BRD, RDM and COR. ... something needs to be done to get more out there, in addtion to more WHM.

To counter the idea that support jobs are rare, go talk to ANY HNMLS member, ...

The answer will typically be: Majority of HNMLS members will have a support job levelled. Only a small minority will actually bring those jobs to an event if given the choice.

Most players consider playing support a chore.

If I may, then, the problem is not really that there are insufficient number of "BRD, RDM and COR" and WHM, but actually:
1. Lack of LS coordination on who is suppose to be on support role jobs.
2. Support role jobs are draining to play, so people often avoid it.
3. Many people do not want to be locked into support role only (since it's tiring), so try to take opportunity to use other jobs.
4. Players like to do damage above all. (Not from Icemage's posting, but from what others have said.)

#1 is to up Linkshells to fix. Just because your LS can't coordinate well enough to ensure the right number of right jobs are available when the LS has many people with multiple Lv.75 jobs, it does not make it S-E's fault.

#2 may not be fixable; support role jobs are busy (when played right) because they can do a lot of useful things for the party/alliance. Is anyone serious suggesting we take their usefulness away to make them less busy? I think not. And, if as Icemage suggests, S-E make DD's and tanks more self-sufficent, then what would be the point of having support role jobs at all?

Making an assumption here, but I doubt BBQ (the OP) would want S-E to make support role jobs obsolete.

#3 still looks like it's up to LS to fix; rotate the support players, so no one gets burned out too fast.

#4 is likely the symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. People want to be heros--to be the someone who receive praises and accolades.

A good RDM in party is nearly invisible--things magically turn out OK, be it your PLD's and WHM's MP pools, the link/pop/add sleeping soundly, that Haste icon that's on screen 98% of the time, or an IT- monster so enfeebled that it feels like a T+ to the tank.

Compared that to brash three-some who just pulled off a huge SC+MB which took 80% of the monster's HP and lit the entire screen with pretty special effects. That's easy to notice, and easy to praise.

And, the RDM who hasted the melee's and refreshed the BLM? He only gets to be yelled at, when haste or refresh dropped for more than 5 seconds.

DD has a chance to be hero every WS, every big nuke. Support... Well, you'd have to go pretty extreme, like single-handily sleep multiple monsters for 15 minutes while others in party recover from KO and weakness--if they don't blame you for the party wipe to begin with.

* * *

I remember an LS THF player (rather newbie at the time), suffered the typical "No one wants to set up SATA for me. /cry" during Promyvion and Minotaur runs. He felt useless. Ended up leveling his WAR for quite a bit, and loved the damage he could do on WAR.

Well, CoP 3.5 came around for him, and I made him go as THF/NIN to kite two Mammets at once. He never kited before that night, but did an awesome job for us. EVERYONE noticed.

He stop neglecting his THF, and leveled it to 61--his highest level job to date. Not only that, he volunteered his THF to kite just about every Mammet fight since. I'd say all the praises and cheers for him helped with that decision to keep leveling THF, and well as provide us with an able and willing Mammet kiter for all times. ^_-

* * *

You want more people to show up as BRDs, RDMs, and WHMs? Praise them. Flatter them. Lick their boots. (Well, OK, not that last one.)

If you are determined, though, to keep them invisible, don't be surprised when your BRD showed up as WAR/NIN and protests "But, you didn't make it absolutely clear I cannot bring WAR instead!"

Of course, we can just all learn to appreciate everyone and give praise generously... Oh, what am I saying?! Slap me, Mhurron!

[Yellow Mage]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Stuff about respect.

The world needs more people like Ita. Seriously.

[Icemage]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

If I may, then, the problem is not really that there are insufficient number of "BRD, RDM and COR" and WHM, but actually:
1. Lack of LS coordination on who is suppose to be on support role jobs.

No. This has nothing to do with coordination.

This is about what people want to bring - not what they are willing to bring. Good linkshells will bring whatever is necessary. Most of the members of my HNMLS have at least 3 jobs at level 75, and will generally switch to any job needed to reach the configuration necessary to execute our strategy. We configure our job mix to match an activity; only in cases where we have more people than we we need do we generally shrug and let some people bring favored jobs, and we try to mix it up to let people flex their skills from time to time.

2. Support role jobs are draining to play, so people often avoid it.

Is that a fault of the support jobs, though, or is it because the DD jobs are so mind-numbingly simple that the support jobs look complex by comparison?

3. Many people do not want to be locked into support role only (since it's tiring), so try to take opportunity to use other jobs.

It's not tiring to play WHM or BRD at endgame, yet hardly anyone one wants to bring those jobs even when they have them levelled. The only jobs I consider to be tiring at endgame are Red Mage, Ninja, Paladin and Corsair.

4. Players like to do damage above all. (Not from Icemage's posting, but from what others have said.)

True. Not everyone's into big numbers, but a lot of people are.

You want more people to show up as BRDs, RDMs, and WHMs? Praise them. Flatter them. Lick their boots. (Well, OK, not that last one.)

If you are determined, though, to keep them invisible, don't be surprised when your BRD showed up as WAR/NIN and protests "But, you didn't make it absolutely clear I cannot bring WAR instead!"

Of course, we can just all learn to appreciate everyone and give praise generously... Oh, what am I saying?! Slap me, Mhurron!

This advice falls on deaf ears. I rarely get commentary about my performance on WHM, RDM, or BRD, but I do hear a lot of "Wow that was a great party/fight" afterwards, which is good enough for me. I can understand why it's not sufficient to feed the ego of most players though.

EDIT: Something else occurs to me. If you go watch any major public battle (any Wyrm fight, anything in sea or sky, etc.), look at the balance of power of jobs present. If more than 4 out of an 18 alliance is non-BLM DDs, it would be shocking.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Honestly, I don't even remember the last time i merrited on whm, rdm or thf >_>; Yet its a wonder I can still keep my exp close to cap on thf considering all the sac pulls i do in dynamis.

Merit parties here, its just tiring. Honestly, its either wait for a phailed invite on thf(e.g. get an invite to mire) or get a damn ddx4 + brd invite on rdm, or just a sucky n00b merit party on whm. On smn, its just soloing goblins for me when my zone of choice is empty(40-46 woot!). Monk and paladin, I just stop cause when ever I feel in a major need to level either, 3-5 others are lfp too --; .

Nothing seems worth the effort in trying anymore these days to me. Just so easy to get overshadowed by the war/nin or sam/thf craze its, brain killing meh. Just once when lfp as rdm/war or whm/nin I get to have some fun being a support/dd at the same time in a classic 3/3 setup. v.v ugh, one can dream.