So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

[Murphie]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Hmm. I'll take Occam's Razor, if you don't mind; the simplest and most likely explanation that bunch of people are WHMs and RDMs on S-E's census is that quite a few people played those jobs at some point.

With a couple of small adjustments, I'm totally with you.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Funny, Murphie. >_>

Well, if you really want to know what's currently available, we can just use /search ...

/sea all 38-72 WHM
/sea all 38-72 RDM
/sea all 38-72

Will give you the non-anon, at least, of percentage of the population as WHM or RDM. Then, we can compare with less controversial jobs known to be popular, like WAR and MNK.

Or, we can all just keep reiterating and spinning each of our favorite theory on why WHMs are not WHMs, and why RDMs are not RDMs. Or, why they were, but not any longer, etc.

[Murphie]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I realize my evidence is anecdotal, but your random /sea isn't much more valid than that. And I wasn't trying to be funny. That's how I honestly feel about the situation.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I realize my evidence is anecdotal, but your random /sea isn't much more valid than that.

I've seen that argument before, and dislike it greatly. If a theory is true, there's a good chance a random sampling should not contradict the theory. Though each sample by itself cannot be used to prove or disprove a theory, samplings should meaningfully increase or decrease the confidence level we have in any relevant theory, even if the change in confidence level is small.

Or, put it another way, if I keep seeing a fair number of WHMs and RDMs on /search, I must doubt the idea that not many people play them.

/search gives precise information, across an entire server. It's true that it doesn't prove S-E's data is good by itself, and I readily acknowledge this. However, to say the usual anecdotal evidence is as valid (or more valid, according to some others) is silly. Plus, many people seem to confuse "anecdotal evidence" with "how I feel about a subject," and take most often repeated testimony as strong evidence without a serious thought on why it should be considered strong.

In absence of better evidence, to invent complicated reasoning why the majority of WHMs aren't WHMs at all is an exercise in absurdity.

[Pteryx]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Also consider this: if a RDM, BRD, or COR goes LFG, they tend to be invited very quickly, and then are not available for other parties. Furthermore, they're in such demand that if they aren't LFG, they often have to go /anon to avoid unsolicited invites. Together, these can easily lead to a perception of a lack of support jobs, which is the wrong subtype of unavailability of support jobs to be asserting the existence of if SE's numbers are to be believed. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

In absence of better evidence, to invent complicated reasoning why the majority of WHMs aren't WHMs at all is an exercise in absurdity.

Your Occram's Razor theory has a lot of holes in it and I don't know why you insist on hanging on the feeble notion that there are lots of WHMs out there.

If there were lots of WHMs:

Why are they still hotly desired in endgame linkshells?
Why do they have the highest turnover rate in said endgame linkshells?
Why does that WHM job vanish after the WHM gains gear for their other job?
Why are WHMs hard to get for PTs even at pre-burn levels?
Why do people groan when you ask them to come WHM over thier melee job?

Because its either not fun to most people or it gets old to the ones that levelled it. Or they got what they needed out of WHM and quit.

Also, consider this:

Time Zones.

Time Zones can affect how you play. Most EU players complain that since they play much closer to JP peak hours that to get any kind of invite attention you have to play a support class. I know of quite a few EU BSTs and PUPs out there, and a ton of EU WHM, RDM and BRDs.

That's a rather distinct polarization in job choices. BST and PUP don't require invites (though they're welcomed) and BRD and RDM can't not get invites. There are EUs that get melee jobs to 75 but take a wild guess which they have to merit on. I've also noticed EU players have a greater tendancy to cap thier EXP than NAs. Hmmmm, can't imagine why >.>

I can go deeper with that, but I think thats a sufficent example of how some jobs aren't represented truely. Think about it a bit more globally, though, and you'll see why the numbers are fudged.

And I can really attest to what EUs experiences because I've played on EU prime hours. I've levelled BRD, COR and RDM over the last three and a half years, care to guess which one got the lionshare of JP invites?

[Murphie]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

/search is going to provide information at that moment, on your server only. It's as anecdotal as the evidence the rest of us are providing, really. Just because it's an actual number doesn't really prove much of anything.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Yet more elaborate theories, and on even smaller data sets. Why is "endgame linkshell players" testimonies with WHMs/RDMs so important? Do they represent the majority of people? BBQ, you thought sampling with /search was worthless data--why would sampling experiences in these endgame linkshells, with their highly skewed, self-selected sub-population of the players, be better?

BTW, I've never said majority of people enjoy WHM or RDM; I've merely pointed out evidence that they are a significant portion of the population, and the data indicate they are not rare. As for time zone, what of it? Whatever the motivations to play support role jobs, if people play them, they are available.

Do check out Pteryx's argument on why people may think there are a fewer RDMs than there really are. That's a much saner argument (find theory which fits the data) there.

* * *

If a job is needed, and there lack enough players, that imbalance itself would act a corrective force. It really is much more reasonable to suppose there are roughly enough WHMs and RDMs than the other way around, since the game has been around for such a long time. Doubly more reasonable, when that supposition aligns with data.

* * *

Thought experiment

Say, a species of beetles can live in both grassy and light forest area within a climate zone. Furthermore, they carry genes for both greenish coloration (good for hiding in grass), and brownish coloration (good for hiding on forest floor).

Also, 30% of the climate zone is forested, and 70% is grassy.

In absent of other selection factor differentials (e.g. They don't eat better or worse in grass or forest), what percentage of the beetles would you expect to be green? What percentage be brown?

Would it matter if the beetles were originally mostly green or brown?

The answer is obvious; over time, the population will evolve to close to optimal fit--squeeze as many beetle into both forest and grass as they can support. And, if both environment support equal density, then the total population should be roughly 30% brown and 70% brown.

* * *

The lesson to take away? If more WHMs are needed, more players will play WHMs. Same goes for any job.

Of course, BRD being an extra job, has more barrier to entry, so it's no surprise RDMs are far more popular, as they are seen to fill approximately the same role for most levels. At least, historically that has been so.

In any case, it's unreasonable to assume very needed jobs would be very rare and stay that way over time, since the environment favor their selection (i.e. easier to level).

[Saren]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Slight derail back to the original topic.


What SE could do to help though credit to them, the new updates certainly look like they are trying:

Cor :The update to cor is really nice. Cor hasn’t been pushed into support healing really so it has more appeal for DD players and if the update makes it more popular then great.


Pup: the update to pup is another step in the right direction. It looks like they are trying to make it so that the puppet can be pushed further into one of the defined party roles so that pup fits into parties a little better.


Time mage: may help a lot depending on how it’s done. It looks like it will be a dedicated support role job and so should fit fairly easily into how players put parties together which is a good thing and there is the chance it could be a good sub.


Smn: Soup up the buffing side of smn to make it a viable and balanced buffer/dd especially with regards to melee buffs, the durations of most of them are just way too short. Attack +15% for 30 seconds with each skill level over cap (only obtainable through gear) gets you an extra second....is pathetic especially for 80mp. Ecliptic Howl is nice but only in the right moon phase. Bard should not be the only job with effective and consistent accuracy and attack buffs because those buffs are just in too much demand.


Adjust bard: Every job has a limitation, bards main one is the casting time of it’s songs. At the moment it’s the only job that is tailored to buffing melees the long casting times are way more than offset by that and by the fact that it doesn’t use mp so it doesn’t have to worry about endurance like most other back line jobs have to. Omgwtfbbqkitten is right, making the gear more relevant to the strength of the buffs with noticeable penalties as well as bonuses would be more fair, won’t hurt the bards that care about their job and got the relevant gear but will make it so that a gimped bard isn’t a powerful player anymore. No job should be an automatic party slot.


Give /whm some competition: Cor doesn’t really have a problem because it usually done with a melee sub and melee subs generally give a lot more added utility to the main job than any mage sub does but whm.

If we are talking useful things from subjobs for exp parties: /blm gives you elemental seal + sleep for emergencies and MABII for rdm main, /smn gives you auto refresh, /rdm gives you bupkiss really, /brd gives a self refresh buff but no mp , /cor gives you a hmp+ buff but no mp, /blu gives you a weaker whm variation with the right spells equipped but with less mp.

/whm on the other hand, gives you every status cure but stona, protectra II, Shellra II and up to cure 3 which will be at least capped and is still a useful cure spell at level 75.

If you are a back line mage then /whm is such a massive step up on any other subjob it’s ridiculous. Status cures and protect/shell give an effect independent of any skill or stat and because of how healing skill works the amount you can get with a /whm is enough for you to cap out on a cure 3.

If other mage jobs were tweaked to make them more attractive as subs I think it might help a lot. More people might play support roles if they could play a buff/dd role (like cor or how smn was supposed to be) or debuff/dd role wilthint being forced into /whm and support healing.




SE have to work around player prejudices and the fact that it takes a while for new things to filter down to common knowledge. You aren’t going to stop people having their playing preferences or finding the easiest way to do something and then repeating it into the ground or from pigeon holing jobs but I think the above would help, particularly the last one.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

The chart doesn't even account for who's taken WHM (or any job) all the way, just what level everyone's highest job is versus thier other jobs and how many have levelled similar jobs to a comprable level. So 16% (or whatever) have probably taken WHM to at least 37. That would mean most people who level jobs that can make use of WHM do so.

That's all it means.

And that's why the headcount is superficial. Actual availability, player trends, time zones, job popularity and such are all factors afterward that influence player perception. To those building PTs or seeking PT or even those who plan endgame events availability is reality.

[Lmnop]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I feel compelled to mention that in Icemage's post, he pointed at how we still try to adhere to "the formula" even in merit parties, but the line is blurred. The big change is that our Tank is also a DD slot and our Support is also a healer. So yeah, we still haven't changed all that much.

Itazura, I see what you've been trying to say. But I think you and everyone arguing against your point need to change your focus a bit.

Sure, WHM is 16% of players. Maybe it's just that easy. But the fact is, barely anyone enjoys taking their rdms to merit parties. Not many seem to enjoy spending time on their WHM. Especially once they get rdm or brd to 75 as well.

The point of this thread is just that: no one wants to stare at life bars for 4 hours, thinking of nothing but where they are in the haste/regen cycle and making sure those life bars stay white.

Corsair is very interesting in that they perform best with melee subs. I really like that S-E did this and I hope they never do anything that makes cor/whm or *gasp* cor/brd the ultimate combo. Really, I'm not sure why COR's not more popular. 'kitten will say cost, but I don't think that could be the only reason. I think the ranged attack positioning thing is just too much of a hassle for most people, as we tend to take the path of least resistance (and if you're going for a buffing class, that means BRD).

I think I'm glad Aeni breathed life back into this thread because it's obvious people had a lot to say (2 pages in a day?). That said, I don't really agree with her reasoning. The reason we don't play Support jobs really is because it's not very fun for most of us to have to work the hardest and get praised the least. Honestly, playing melee jobs isn't that fun either, but at least you look cool and it's easy.

[Mhurron]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Thought experiment

Say, a species of beetles can live in both grassy and light forest area within a climate zone. Furthermore, they carry genes for both greenish coloration (good for hiding in grass), and brownish coloration (good for hiding on forest floor).
Also, 30% of the climate zone is forested, and 70% is grassy.
In absent of other selection factor differentials (e.g. They don't eat better or worse in grass or forest), what percentage of the beetles would you expect to be green? What percentage be brown?
Would it matter if the beetles were originally mostly green or brown?
The answer is obvious; over time, the population will evolve to close to optimal fit--squeeze as many beetle into both forest and grass as they can support. And, if both environment support equal density, then the total population should be roughly 30% brown and 70% brown.
* * *
The lesson to take away? If more WHMs are needed, more players will play WHMs. Same goes for any job.
Of course, BRD being an extra job, has more barrier to entry, so it's no surprise RDMs are far more popular, as they are seen to fill approximately the same role for most levels. At least, historically that has been so.
In any case, it's unreasonable to assume very needed jobs would be very rare and stay that way over time, since the environment favor their selection (i.e. easier to level).

Wrong. Evolutionary theory is not applicable here since players are not completely mindless. This is a game that people do for enjoyment, they are only going to play what they want to play, not what others need.

16% of anything is not a significant portion of anything.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

16% of anything is not a significant portion of anything.

Then, at 9% (WAR) and 3% (BRD), those WARs and BRDs must mean nothing.

What constitute "significant portion" changes with context, and the current context is that S-E's numbers say largest slice of the pie is 16%...

* * *

Giving up for now; I seem to be unable to get my ideas across to most posters. While I still maintain there's no real shortage of healer and support role players (at least no evidence of that), Lmnop is right in that there wouldn't necessarily be harm done if they are made more enjoyable for larger portion of the player population.

I just don't want huge buffs to those jobs; every job buff is potentially a nerf to the game, and possibly breaking the balance a little (more).

[Yellow Mage]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I personally think that the problem is that the -only- dedicated Healer job is White Mage, with only Red Mage and Paladin as the only other jobs with native curative magics. Compare it to your obscenely wide array of Damage Dealers: -any- Job could be a DD, technically. Even the White Mage job itself has a small share of front-liners (hello, Hexa Strike).

Note, when I say WHM is the only dedicated Healer class, that also includes jobs who can only get in as /WHM, because they are nothing more than a WHM at half-leveled White Mage in a party, without the EXP problems. Summoner comes to mind when saying this, because, when somebody says "Summoner Main Healer," I don't think whoever's saying it has "Healing Breeze" and "Spring Water" in thier mind. Might as well call Onion Knight a Healer, too, because, if such a job existed, the only way they're getting in a party at mid-levels is by subbing White Mage, or maybe Red Mage, if they want to go against the grain. This also has links to the whole "lack of variety in Healing jobs" thing.

But, if you wanted to be a typical melee DD, you have far more options! Warrior, Dark Knight, Ranger, Dragoon, Monk, Thief, Blue Mage, Samurai, and you can even make cases for Beastmaster, Corsair, Puppetmaster, Ninja, and even White Mage itself! Even if you wanted a refresher/support, you -still- have more choices, with Red Mage, Bard, and Corsair. Healing, you're with either a White Mage, a /WHM, or, in some cases, a Red Mage or /RDM.

So, while lack of motivation to be stuck as a healer may be a factor, a lack of variety in actual healing jobs just can't be ignored. Why else is White Mage so demanded a job? I doubt it's for the Hexa-Strikers.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

'kitten will say cost, but I don't think that could be the only reason. I think the ranged attack positioning thing is just too much of a hassle for most people, as we tend to take the path of least resistance (and if you're going for a buffing class, that means BRD).

BRD is every bit about positioning as COR is. Hell, even moreso because they don't have the buff cycle restrictions COR does. If a COR rolls one buff, its locked for a full two minutes and the third buff has to be a new buff or it won't overwrite at all.

As such, BRDs can spam their songs and if they know thier buff radius well, they can hit almost anyone with a unique buff. The third song will overwrite the first song on a BRD no matter what that song is.

And positioning for ranged attacks is much ado about nothing. Gun range is by far the most forgiving of all ranged weapons, you stand just a bit outside of melee ranged to get your best damage and if you're high on attack/STR gear with a fair Ranged Accuracy build, that's not even neccessary. Positioning for ranged is much more in the forefront of RNG's mind than it is COR's

The issue for most is cost.

Why?

Because each time I hear "I would level COR, but..." it always ends with "its too expensive."

Just how many posts have there been with people trying to nickel and dime thier way through the job? How many have said they wish to avoid levelling RNG or NIN subs to avoid further cost?

Almost so many I want to throw up. They may as well just say "I'm levelling this because I saw Pirates of the Carribean and want to collect the AF."

You know what I tell them about the AF?

"You'll have to pay for that, too."