So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

[Raydeus]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Tell that to the deceased Umbrella Corp.

[Icemage]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

The problem with support jobs in FFXI is not endemic to the support jobs themselves.

The problem is that the game was designed around a demographic balance that simply does not exist in any MMO playerbase:

1 tank
2 damage dealers
1 healer
1 support
+ 1 optional of any type

The core mechanics in the game revolve heavily around this idea, and they were inherited from the Final Fantasy single player dynamics. The playerbase has adapted and pushed the definition far away from this ideal in many circumstances, particularly closer to level 75, but it still doesn't get away from the core design. The pressure still remains because none of the jobs in the game, aside from Beastmaster, is self-sufficient enough to handle the pressure of prolonged XP grinding without assistance or significant downtime.

We don't really need more support jobs (though I'd welcome more personally as I enjoy playing them).

What we need is better game mechanics that more closely resemble the breakdown of what real players want to do.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I thought WHM is the most popular job, followed by RDM (and BLM)?

Where exactly is the mismatch between the core mechanism and the player base? Lack of tanks?

[Karinya]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Too many DDs. But I disagree with Icemage: we've seen the mostly-DD party (for the last couple of years in fact) and it sucks. It alleviated demographic pressures, but at the cost of ruining gameplay for the parties that *are* there. Teamwork is more fun and more challenging, even though it requires people to play DIFFERENT jobs. (Of course if DD-heavy parties made about the same exp as old-school parties, not 2-3x as much, then both types could coexist. That's probably what SE should be aiming for with job and monster rebalances.)

Unfortunately way too much of the playerbase bears a strong resemblance to 8-Bit Theater's Fighter. They just like to hit things and they're not interested in jobs that don't hit things.

[Murphie]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I thought WHM is the most popular job, followed by RDM (and BLM)?

Where exactly is the mismatch between the core mechanism and the player base? Lack of tanks?

Didn't someone (I want to say BBQ) point out that WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, and likely the reason for that particular statistic? I don't know about you, but I don't honestly see that many WHMs out and about. I'm sure folks have them leveled, but that doesn't translate into the reality of what people are playing right now.

[Mhurron]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Didn't someone (I want to say BBQ) point out that WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, and likely the reason for that particular statistic? I don't know about you, but I don't honestly see that many WHMs out and about. I'm sure folks have them leveled, but that doesn't translate into the reality of what people are playing right now.

There is also the fact that leveling WHM, RDM and BLM was one of the fastest ways to get into an end game ls.

Lots of reasons that support jobs are leveled, but never played.

[Ziero]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

A party only needs one Whm but can have up to four of a single DD job to be successful. The reason there isn't as many support jobs being played is that there's not enough need for them. Every party needs two different ones and that's it, some can even make due with just one. There's also the fact that there's only four(five if you count Smn) pure support classes while there's at least ten pure DD classes (twelve if you count pimped out DD nin and endgame Smn, thirteen if you include Pup).

The reason we see more DDs then support is because there *is* more DD classes then support. There's also more *need* for DDs then support classes. Go put five Rdms or five Brds together in one pt and see how fast they kill.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Didn't someone (I want to say BBQ) point out that WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, and likely the reason for that particular statistic? I don't know about you, but I don't honestly see that many WHMs out and about. I'm sure folks have them leveled, but that doesn't translate into the reality of what people are playing right now.

Yes, BBQ was one person. Here are a couple of things to consider on the topic:
1. Likely, S-E counts the highest job a person has as his "main". Don't tell me a person who consider his WAR as main job typically would have WHM as the highest level job.
2. If S-E just took snap shots of which jobs people online were on, it then actually means PEOPLE ARE USING THE WHITE MAGE JOB. (Seems logical to assume people spend more time on their main job than others, no? Takes 143,250 EXP to go from Lv.1 to Lv.37, but 658,100 EXP to get from Lv.37 to Lv.75, after all.)

Either way, I've never seen credible evidence that WHM and RDM are unpopular jobs, just people stating opinions such as "People hate to play healer" and "There are never RDMs around" as facts.

[Jethreal]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Another thing to consider with the X job is never available, is simply that we have a tendancy to remember negative/frustrating circumstances far more than positive ones.

IE I remember not be able to form a pt because there was no tank available, but don't remember that I had a Rdm or Whm in my group of 5 that disbanded. My own job by it's nature determines what I'm looking for, I would not be surprised at all to hear that the Whms think no-one plays tanks and the tanks think there are no healers around.

[Mhurron]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I've never seen credible evidence that WHM and RDM are unpopular jobs, just people stating opinions such as "People hate to play healer" and "There are never RDMs around" as facts.

Really? It's right in front of you.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...3main_job.html

WHM - 16% Rare? Maybe not in the strictest sense, but 84% of the population doesn't play WHM
RDM - 13% Yes, apparently it's going to be harder to find a RDM then a WHM.

Put them together, and throw in SMN for the hell of it as healing classes and you have 31% of people play some sort of healing job, meaning 59% of people do not want to play a healing job. Now assuming you are right, and it's a good assumption, that SE is counting jobs to 75 as main, then a number of those RDM and WHM are the same person. I think its safe to say that the majority of players do not want to play healers.

Lets look at support, BRD (3), RDM (13), COR(1) and you have 83% of players do not want to play support jobs.

Tanks? They make up 13% of players.

DD? Not including BLM - 39% Including BLM - 52%. I think it's safe to say that most people want to hurt things. And again, this is ignoring healers and support players that also have DD jobs leveled because they also like to hit things.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Hmm. How about I say that there's a popular notion that "Too few people want to play support and healer", and that notion is wrong?

In a party of six, Icemage stated the core setup needs one tank, one healer, one support.

Well, one divided by six is 16.7%; that means we need roughly 16-17% of the population as tank, and the same for healer, and the same for support role jobs.

Tank (PLD + NIN): ~13%
Support Role (RDM + BRD + COR): ~17%
Healer (WHM): ~16% (~18% if counting SMN)

Mhurron, we can quibble about what is the percentage means a job can be called popular or rare, but I hope you can agree that the numbers seem to show overall, there are enough support role and healer players.

* * *

If I had written "WAR and MNK are popular jobs," I doubt few would have disagreed with me or pick on the statement by stating "Well, there are more people who play WHM or RDM than WAR or MNK."

Why is it so controversial to say WHM and RDM are popular jobs? It just seem to hit a collective nerve...

[Ziero]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Really? It's right in front of you.
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...3main_job.html
WHM - 16% Rare? Maybe not in the strictest sense, but 84% of the population doesn't play WHM
RDM - 13% Yes, apparently it's going to be harder to find a RDM then a WHM.
Put them together, and throw in SMN for the hell of it as healing classes and you have 31% of people play some sort of healing job, meaning 59% of people do not want to play a healing job. Now assuming you are right, and it's a good assumption, that SE is counting jobs to 75 as main, then a number of those RDM and WHM are the same person. I think its safe to say that the majority of players do not want to play healers.
Lets look at support, BRD (3), RDM (13), COR(1) and you have 83% of players do not want to play support jobs.
Tanks? They make up 13% of players.
DD? Not including BLM - 39% Including BLM - 52%. I think it's safe to say that most people want to hurt things. And again, this is ignoring healers and support players that also have DD jobs leveled because they also like to hit things.

I think this is more due to the fact that there are 2 to 3 times more offensive job choices then the actual desire to play the job. But then again any statistical survey of this games current in game job status quo is going to be difficult to obtain with that handy dandy Job Change ability. I mean, if someone lvls both War and Whm to 75, does that make them a healer or a melee?

It's not lack of desire, it's lack of options. We don't need as many support jobs being played because there's no room for those support jobs. Hence why hybrid classes like Cor and Blu seem to be the best way to add new jobs.

[Mhurron]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Mhurron, we can quibble about what is the percentage means a job can be called popular or rare, but I hope you can agree that the numbers seem to show overall, there are enough support role and healer players.

Thats assuming those 16% of players are on, currently WHM, the level you want and want to party. Even with 52% of the population being DD, personally I only ever see at most 20 or so lfg.

There's also the question of how many have WHM or RDM leveled to 75 but pretty much hate the job so much they will never touch it again. Numerous people who have a lvl75 job have retired it, but it will still show up in those statistics.

They seem to be very popular to have leveled, but that is not translating to being very popular to play. WHM, RDM and BLM (especially) were a number of peoples tickets into end game LS's.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Hmm. I'll take Occam's Razor, if you don't mind; the simplest and most likely explanation that bunch of people are WHMs and RDMs on S-E's census is that quite a few people play those jobs.

[Celeal]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

To be honest, I think we do lack of desire and lack of options... using the ToAU jobs as an example: BLU/WHM as main healer or BLU/WAR as tank, vs DD BLU, the later one is more popular and easiler to achieve. Look at COR/RNG ~ COR/NIN vs COR/WHM ~ COR/BRD, in the game mechanics COR/RNG ~ COR/NIN is "completed" while COR/WHM ~ COR/BRD have "something" missing.

More option will be opened up if S-E do something like make DRG/WHM pet trigger healing breath at 80% hp....better mp ratio on BLU's nuke or debuff... re-work monk's guarding, counterattack, lower the timer of Chakra.... There are things for existing job that can tweak better for non-DD role in party, instead of adding new support jobs.

With the upcoming PUP's healer head, we can wait and see how well it can main/backup heal in party with Mana Tank I+II (3 MP Auto-Refresh per tick with one Dark Maneuver, more MP per tick when more Dark Maneuver is up)