So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

See title.

I'd like to see some genuine ideas outside of "let them be more capable DDs" or "make COR less expensive" because I don't think those are good reasons or addtions. I don't want to hear new job suggestions either, that's another topic.

People complain about the lack of BRD, RDM and COR. RDMs outnumber the others by a wide margin, BRD is more populatated than it used to be - I'd say there was a 25-33% increase as of ToA. COR is expensive, so that scares people away those that want to be a super DD that buffs.

In fact, I think COR is starting to fall behind PUP in population.

They all have refresh and dispel. RDM is a great soloist. BRD and CORs are rolling in merits like a happy pig in the mud. So I'm not seeing why they should get more than what they have now (COR Group 2 merits notwithstanding).

But apparently something needs to be done to get more out there, in addtion to more WHM. I like COR as is, no competition in sight for endgame right now >.>

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Visually notable exp bonus (as in "You received 15 _Corsair_ bonus experience points!" after battle) for under populated jobs. So, if you're the only PUP or DRG or RDM or something within LV.49-51, you get 100 extra exp per kill. Or something.

No one will ever complain about a his job being unpopular again.

(Note: I'm not serious.)

[Feba]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

The thing is, most people just don't want to play support. They want to be the one pumping out big numbers, or taking punches like a boxer. They want their work to show up on a parser, something concrete, or say 'here look, I own.'

I bet if SE removed Player->Mob damage numbers (or at least, the ones in the text log, keeping the popups MAYBE) DDs would be less popular, simply because of e-peen deflation.

[Necropolis]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

While I think the majority prefer to play a DD role, I believe there are plenty of people who play support. Really all you need is 2 support for every 4 DD/tank jobs.

Most parties will be functional with a Cor & Rdm, Rdm & Whm, or Whm & Cor, Brd & Cor, Brd & whm, Brd & Whm. The problem lies in that support roles in general level much faster than DD classes. While a DD will often take any party they get invited to, a Support class can be more selective because they know another invite is right around the corner.

A lot of the issues come from an elitism attitude from support role players. They know they are needed, and there for they can dictate what jobs they will play with. While it's a players choice, it still leaves the lolpup, loldrg, loldrk, lolflavor-of-the-week LFP.

I don't think that any particular class should be favorable over another, but that is not the case. A bard, no matter what level, just has to log in to get an invite. While a pup will go days without so much as a /tell.

Perhaps a solution lies in permiting varients to party setups that were not typical in the past. A pup perhaps having control to set his pet to be main healer for the whole party. Or Drg's Healing Breath being more of a curaga. That way a party could be just as sufficient with a fewer number of support classes avaliable.

As to a way to make Support Jobs themselves more desireable, I'm not sure there is a way. There is nothing wrong with the jobs themselves, but rather people's view of them. If you can level Mnk or War and make the same great exp/hr without having to put in the effort that a brd, cor, whm, or rdm put in, why would you?

Of course there are players that enjoy that role (myself being one of them), and short of making things easier, so that even a cave man could do it type easy, I don't see a way of changing a person's outlook on a job.

If I could just cast parlynaga, instead of paralyna X4, or Hastega instead of Haste X4, or Refreshga, instead of Refresh X4, perhaps that would change people's view. If Cors and Brds could have 4 rolls/songs up at a time, and didn't have to worry about positioning players, that could appeal to the masses. But you would likely take away the challenge from players that enjoy their rolls as is.

I'm sleepy and starting to ramble, but I hope what I said made some sentient logic to at least one person.

[Murphie]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

The only way to make them more attractive to players is to change the players themselves. Aversion to support classes isn't unique to FFXI. Some players just don't want to be the one providing less tangible benefit to the party. Damage done is measurable. Of course, so is damage healed. But the benefits that other jobs provide? Not so much.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Visually notable exp bonus (as in "You received 15 _Corsair_ bonus experience points!" after battle) for under populated jobs. So, if you're the only PUP or DRG or RDM or something within LV.49-51, you get 100 extra exp per kill. Or something.

No one will ever complain about a his job being unpopular again.

(Note: I'm not serious.)

I sometimes wish SE would have just made Corsair Roll a job trait so the noobs would stop asking me for the gimmick buff and not the good ones that actually rake in more EXP per hour. Call it "Luck of the Corsair" or something. Give it an activation rate based on when they hit Lucky Numbers.

I'm not rolling it unless I'm in a really killer manaburn where I can warrant dropping another buff due to killspeed. 5 BLMs are usually pretty easy to hit, they don't wander til after chain #3. Plus they got dicked on invites for at least 25 levels of their career.

[Vyuru]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

They want their work to show up on a parser, something concrete, or say 'here look, I own.'

I dunno, I took pride in the fact that as rdm so long as I never ran out of mp the party never had any down time, I own so much as rdm I don't need no stinking parser to show how much I owned

More seriously, what if some of the other jobs got refresh/+hmp abilities?

Like Summoner for instance, what if Leviathan's Healing Spring is it? Also gave a refresh effect as well as restored hp? Maybe another summon could give +hhp/hmp effects.

Why not give Chakra a similar effect? Make it AoE, restores X amount of hp/mp, and gives +hhp/hmp. Sure it is only on a 10 minute timer, but every bit helps, and honestly I never see monks use Chakra or Chi Blast in parties, ever, even when they are hurt and we're just twiddling our thumbs waiting for the whm to regain mp to heal us.

I would like it if dragoon gained a few more support ability tweaks so that with the right subjob perhaps, it could be played like Corsair, but I don't know how well that would work, and hey I'm just a big Freya fan boy (Kain who? )

What if instead of making support classes more interesting, we improved or added new job abilities to the already existing ones in an effort to make support jobs just that, support. Right now rdm is a support job, but most mages and paladins consider refresh so crucial that any job with refresh is considered mandatory. With all of the new +refresh gear, sanction bonuses, and signet bonuses, this may change, it's too soon to tell I think, but this need refresh mentality may be too far inbred to ever root it out.

Hmm, just thinking aloud here.

Rdm, brd, and cor are all wanted for their refresh.

Rdm is also wanted for haste/healing, and sometimes enfeebling. However with the new kill T-VT mobs as fast as possible most rdm nowadays don't bother enfeebling, this is especially true lvl 60+.

Bards are highly desired for TP burn parties for their various stat boosting songs.

Corsairs I haven't played much with, so I can't really say, I don't know that much about how their rolls work or what they do. I have noticed that Warrior's Role is ungodly powerful, and that in general I think I would much rather have a Corsair than a Bard in my parties any day of the week. Links are few so who really cares if the Corsair may or may not be able to crowd control as well as a bard?

Where am I going with this? I'm not entirely sure, I'm mostly trying to figure out just what abilities people like about them so much, and if it would be possible to get other jobs to do that. I'll have to come back to this after my last final tomorrow.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Links are few so who really cares if the Corsair may or may not be able to crowd control as well as a bard?

"Crowd control" is a overly-generous term for "greed." I've had plenty of high-chain PTs where BRDs never once held more than one mob outside of the current fight. COR and pull and sleep one at a time as good as any BRD could, we just don't have a second tier to fall back on. But that's what Random Deal and Wild Card are there for.

Anyway, people spend so very little time trying to learn what these support classes do outside of refresh, buffing and dispel. A THF is going to shrug off Rouge's Roll as though it were nothing special, but that's not why I roll it, I roll it so everyone can get a bonus to their critical hit rate because the THF was there. I could give a damn if he notices a difference. Anyone who's subbing /THF is going to notice Fighter's Roll allowing them to double attack even if the Warrior doesn't.

I don't think support roles are very complex, just busier than others. If a melee job doesn't have some degree of diverse function, I usually think its a boring job.

[Feba]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Crowd control is usually more "sleep that crab so we don't all die horrible flaming deaths" than "greed".

[Raydeus]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

I think the issue with Support jobs (like many other issues) goes beyond SE's reach, simply because it has to do with player mentality/psychology.

There's a reason why not many want to be true support players, and many of those "support" players spend 3/4 of the time bragging about how much they contribute to the party and stuff, in a very "I'm the one making things happen, the rest of the party are just my pawns" kinda way. Or worse, just playing a support job (even though they hate it) just because they are easier to level up and to get the leet gear with it (and I wouldn't be surprised if all the sucky support players thought that way).

We've all been told we are special since we were kinds, we are the heroes in every game we play, and in most stories you'll never see a support character becoming the hero. Support characters are just sidekicks who may or may not play a crucial part in the plot but who will never be the hero either way.

This is specially true in the NA playerbase, and we all know how individualist NAs are. So to expect players to suddenly want to become the support of the team without having a good chance of becoming "the star" is kinda too much to expect, specially with younger players.

So, until we learn to think of the party as a "We" instead of 6 separate "Me" I don't see the job balance changing much at all, and besides...



Does it really matter? This is just a game after all, the story always tells us we are the heroes who saved Vana and stuff (even though it says the same to each and every player <.<).

So what the heck, let's give RDM Refresh II Refreshga and A++ Sword and Dagger rating, also give us all the tier II Enspells Phalanx III and stuff like that. I guarantee if RDM does the big dmg numbers we'll see everyone leveling this awesome job and supporting many many parties!

(We could give COR and BRD similar boosts but that would break the game's balance so better not )


Aaaand I think that's what I think about all this mess called Game Balanceâ„¢ for tonight.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Crowd control is usually more "sleep that crab so we don't all die horrible flaming deaths" than "greed".

In that regard, COR and BRDs are equal then But both can count on a melee to play hero and smack it awake again.

There's a reason why not many want to be true support players, and many of those "support" players spend 3/4 of the time bragging about how much they contribute to the party and stuff, in a very "I'm the one making things happen, the rest of the party are just my pawns"

But its true. Those attack buffs didn't come out of nowhere and when the DRK lands that huge 2k weaponskill, he thanks not the BRD, but pats his own back. But when the BRD leaves, Space Ace reverts to Dexter and Kimberly no longer wants him.

Or worse, just playing a support job (even though they hate it) just because they are easier to level up and to get the leet gear with it (and I wouldn't be surprised if all the sucky support players thought that way).

BRD and RDM are easier to level, COR not so much, but it does attracts some with the gil but not the skill. I wouldn't consider a COR a job people levelled purely for merits like people would RDM or BRD.

But I've seen my fair share of "Bards." They're usally defeated THFs, DRGs or DRKs without merit invites. I went to BRD with the interest of filling a missing role in my LS and I repeated that error with RDM later. I'm nice to a fault and, when burned, become cynical and evil. Not fun to level stuff for the benefit of friends only to have then screw you over.

I should have just stuck with DRG. Thankfully, BRD and RDM did prepare me for the one of the jobs I enjoyed more than DRG or BST - Corsair. Gambler outranked those jobs as a series favorite, I had always wondered why it was missing from FFXI. But I do have the BRD to fall back on for merits for those other jobs on my original character.

Not a total loss, but I'm not planning to advertise my BRD to any HNMLS in the future, I'll leave that to the wannaBRDs and career ones. I'm not soaking up gear I don't need.

[Sevv]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

The thing is, most people just don't want to play support. They want to be the one pumping out big numbers, or taking punches like a boxer. They want their work to show up on a parser, something concrete, or say 'here look, I own.'
I bet if SE removed Player->Mob damage numbers (or at least, the ones in the text log, keeping the popups MAYBE) DDs would be less popular, simply because of e-peen deflation.

lol im mainly a dd job i dont think i have had my damage on since level 30 drg lmao, every now and then i turn it on to tweak gear sets to max out DoT and ws, but after that filter on again. I leveled drg cuz i loved it and every job since then is what my ls needs at the time.

But mainly feba again is right, hell people sell friends out for digital gear for thier e-peen.

[Aeni]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

My take on this ...

You can make the horse to go the stream, but you can't make him drink it.

There are those who like to play support class jobs and there are those who don't. Nothing in the world can change this fact. It's just unfortunate that the number of people that play support jobs are outnumbered by a lot of people who don't and it's because of the stereotypes that is still evident even in an online game such as this...

...comes down to that little thing called gender stereotyping.

[DakAttack]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

Support jobs aren't easy to play, they're usually a lot more repetitive than others. Offense just whack away and throw out a WS when it's time. They don't miss a second of Scrubs. Support on the other hand have their hands full before the fight, during the fight, and after the fight.

It's probably an issue of identity as well. Swinging fancy weapons at angry monsters is as cool as awesome. Support jobs don't exactly have an awesome background or look.

It's about time SE made playing offensive as hard as it is playing support.

[Sevv]

Re: So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

necro is not a good thing...