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  • So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

    WARNING: Long read. If you don't like reading, too freakin' bad.

    I remember myself once saying (along with a host of others) that BRD and RDM need nothing in the way of job adjustments and are fine as is. I didn't see the problem in that position when I levelled RDM in between both BRD and COR, but now that COR gave me a refresher (pardon the pun) in some of my qualms with BRD, I do see a common problem for all three jobs.

    Any of these three jobs loathe one common thing: The the jobs that use MP on the front line of battle. Even with things like Sanction Refresh, Vermillion/Black Cloak, Parade Gorget and Auto-Refresh Traits, jobs like BLU, PLD and DRK can still be annoying to deal with. Then there's other possible jobs like DRG/WHM and PUP/WHM that could also present a problem.

    But in the case of any job involved here, to work around this, people are forced to give up something that might help them play more efficently. For example, I'm pretty sure most PLD, DRK, and BLUs would love to get the sanction Food buff instead of Refresh, BLU might want to set other spells so they don't have to set up for Auto-Refresh.

    And BRDs and CORs don't want to drop a four buff cycle down to two or three just for the sake of hitting everyone with Ballad or Evoker's roll because it decreases how fast a PT may kill. And in the case of RDM, no RDM wants to deal with refreshing more than three other people on their own.

    So let's start with a solution for RDM. I think the best solution lies in a trait they're know for - Fast Cast. I've always been left with the impression Fast Cast was the online take of the main series ability, Double Cast. Sometimes Double Cast let the second cast follow the first in succession with no MP cost, but in FFX I think it drew the MP cost both times.

    So for the sake of argument, we'll Say Double Cast comes at level 35, has a 2 minute timer and that the second and same spell comes at no cost after the first. So RDM could eek out two Refreshes in a short span of time and then hit a third no too long after. I place this ability at sub level just due to the sheer usefulness it could offer other jobs. The applications for BLU, WHM, and BLU, and SMN should be obvious, but it would also allow NIN do get out an addition elemental spell or attempt to land again after a resist and for BRD, it would allow the to catch any straggler that miss a buff earlier. Just imagine what it could do for a job like PLD in some situations, two big cure IVs could draw some serious hate.

    But lets ante up and give RDM an exclusive in Triple Cast. Four minute timer, first spell at usual cost, second at half and third totally free. This would not only make refreshing multiple members quickly and more easily, but be less of a burden on a Haste cycle as well, or even main healing. And lets not overlook what either ability could do for soloists

    Moving on to BRD. I propose an ability to briefly shift to a state of single target buffing and back to the AOE buffs. We'll call the single target ability "Serenade" and the revert to the AoE state "Chorus." Both abilities would be at level 20 and only apply to songs. I place it at sub level just due to the fact most people use /BRD and I think that's a short-sighted crutch application for a subjob, /BRD could do more and be more viable with such an ability and the /BRD user would be able to boost melee out put without . In addition, it could make many jobs an attractive, if light, refresher.

    But you couldn't do that for those jobs without giving COR something as well and this could sound a bit complicated. So I propse a series of single target buffs under a one minute ability we'll call "Slight". This would be another gambling ability except its a simple 1-6 roll with no Double ups or Busts, but but since it is a single target buff and have the same duration as a Phantom roll, it will come at the cost of a combination of specific elemental cards and some gil. .

    A series of four support abilitys would come from Slight:

    Providence
    Single target Refresh
    Cost: one Light Card, two Water Cards, 500 gil.
    Refresh Values: 1-3 = 1 MP, 4-5 = 2 MP a tick, 6 = 3 MP a tick.

    Hurricane
    Single target Haste
    Cost: one Water Card, two Wind Cards, 200 gil.
    Haste Values - 1-3 = 3% Haste, 4-5 = 4%, 6 = 5% Haste

    Lightning Strike
    Single Target Accuracy buff
    Cost: one earth card, two lightning cards, 300 gil.
    Accuracy Values - 1-3 = +3% Accuracy, 4-5 = +4% Accuracy, 6 = +5% accuracy.

    Berzerker
    Single Target Attack buff
    Cost: one Dark Card, two Fire Cards, 400 gil.
    Attack values - 1-3 = +3% Attack, 4-5 = +4% Attack, 6 = +5% Attack

    Slight would overwrite a Phantom Roll on the Target, but would not stack with Hunter's, Chaos or Evoker's, their respective single targets could nly overwrite them purely for the sake of this not being overpowered. Slight would also be an umbrella ability just like Phantom Roll and Quick Draw, they could choose one of these buffs per minute.

    We'll put Slight of Hand at 35. And here's are my reasons for the way I've detailed it.

    First off, these abilities could be fairly potent for subjob use, and giving just any job a chance at a 3 MP a tick refresh for low cost would indeed take away from RDM, BRD and COR so Providence should come at a degree of expense, even with the varied results.

    As it stands, there is no job requirement for elemental Cards, yet COR is really the only one that can put them to use in battle. There are also some cards that see less play with Quick Draw than others, which is why I've paired them up with other elemental cards at the cost of 2. Fire, Water, Lightning and Wind don't see much action versus Light, Dark, Ice and Earth Shot, so with this ability, they'd see liberal use.

    Since the buffs last five minutes, the one minute recast would indeed accomodate multiple MP frontliners pretty fairly, so if wouldn't have to be a sucessive ability like

    COR also lacks a haste ability, so if we can't get a AoE version and we can get a single target version, it should cost us since we are, after all, gamblers.

    Anyway, long topic from me, but I think if these abilities were added it would make jobs like DRK, BLU and PLD more attractive for BRD, COR and RDM to work with more often. The nature of subjobs, positioning and melee classes that use MP make it hard for the BRD, RDM and COR to deal with them.

    And I think such a change would also allow for other jobs to use a greater range of subjobs. It would help things like DRG/Mage work better in a PT without being a needy refresh annoyance to support classes.

    I do see how some might think it would push these support classes further into a pure support function and make a job like COR busier than it already is (I still regard BRD and RDM to be a little busier, so tough luck), but that would still vary with PT setup. Things like Serenade and Slight would tie jobs down too much if only one MP user was on the front line.

    Such a change could also give a job like RDM a better justification for being a frontline fighter. Part of the reason I want one on the backline as COR or BRD is the frontline needs melee buffs and they kinda screw with that by going to the frontline.

  • #2
    Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

    I like the ideas on paper, but I think increasing the attractiveness of these three already-over-important jobs isn't really the pathway to gaming nirvana.

    Additionally, making the already-expensive Corsair job even more expensive isn't going to endear it to most players...


    Icemage

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    • #3
      Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

      I don't really have problem refreshing the entire party on RDM--it's the switching back and forth between Haste and Refresh which really throws me off and kill my MP pool.

      Then, again, in MP heavy parties, I'd sheepishly break out my gimpy /BRD30 and make sure everyone has some sort of Refresh/Ballad at all times, so no one would kill me for slipping up on Refresh for 10 seconds.

      I wouldn't be happy with any proposal to let BRD (and COR to an extend) get around the limitation of AoE buffs, though; their AoE buffs are quick to apply (think "time per beneficiary"), and cost no MP. The limitation of "hitting everyone in range at once" exists to balance that power.

      The balance to RDM's ability to precisely target each team member for buffs is the cost in time and MP; the balance to BRD's ability to blanket cover everyone in a few songs with 0 MP cost is limit on number of concurrent buffs and party's geometric formation vs. members' heterogeneous needs.

      Tossing those limits away is likely to make the game more unbalanced than to improve it.
      Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
      yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
      Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
      leaving no trace in the water.

      - Mugaku

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      • #4
        Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

        Originally posted by Icemage View Post
        I like the ideas on paper, but I think increasing the attractiveness of these three already-over-important jobs isn't really the pathway to gaming nirvana.

        Additionally, making the already-expensive Corsair job even more expensive isn't going to endear it to most players...


        Icemage
        I consider the expense of COR to be the idiot filter RDM and BRD both lack. Granted its not 100% effective, but even if it has been more like 50%, its cut down on the population enough for the good ones to stand out, where as with BRD the good are smothered by the terrible ones. People are just slaves to inviting a BRD or RDM even if they do know the person playing those jobs sucks at them.

        "Oh no, not him, but damn we need refresh and dispel."

        Everyone has thought this at somepoint, so no denying that

        My dual reasoning behind these concepts is to increase their subjob viability while making it easier to integrate BRD, COR and RDM into any possible PT setup. While we have all these great refresh options at our disposal, there are far too many players that don't take advantange of them out of sheer laziness.

        And when players refuse to adapt their jobs or adapt to certain setups, SE typically compensates for their ineptitude. Otherwise, I don't think Light and Dark Shot would have been altered for COR in the first place or that PLD would have been given Auto-Refresh and Parade Gorget.

        Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post

        I wouldn't be happy with any proposal to let BRD (and COR to an extend) get around the limitation of AoE buffs, though; their AoE buffs are quick to apply (think "time per beneficiary"), and cost no MP. The limitation of "hitting everyone in range at once" exists to balance that power.

        The balance to RDM's ability to precisely target each team member for buffs is the cost in time and MP; the balance to BRD's ability to blanket cover everyone in a few songs with 0 MP cost is limit on number of concurrent buffs and party's geometric formation vs. members' heterogeneous needs.
        I don't agree that these are balanced aspects, it may have been intended as a balance initally, but its proven that it just doesn't work as well as it could.

        SE has expressed on numerous occasions that they want players to explore a variety of PT setups and job/subjob combinations.

        Some of our most popular jobs totally thwart that design and desire for the game. BRDs and RDMs are looked upon as primadonnas because they won't work with various setups while CORs are just considered unreliable (and I won't deny that many are).

        There are setups that just don't work with BRD and COR and its not easy to always get BRD + RDM, COR + RDM, COR + BRD or, COR/BRD/RDM in a PT.

        I'm an all-or-nothing personality. I can't enjoy a PT if I have to cut down on my buff rotation just to compensate for a PLD's unwillingness to position himself for Evokers or Ballad. That's why I'll drop PT if I know a PLD isn't going to work with me based on prior experience. It may be rude as hell and seem like I'm being a primadonna, but I can't say I like doing it. But if they won't work with me, I will not work with them, period.
        Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 02-07-2007, 04:18 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

          I don't understand the need to buff RDM and BRD. They're already some of the most vitally needed jobs in a party, and RDM is one of the better soloing jobs. Adjustments should be given to jobs that have a hard time finding a role in a party.
          MisterCookie: Alla refugee since May 2006

          MisterCookie: Writing poor signatures since January 1999

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          • #6
            Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

            I like your ideas and would only change the Double and Triple Cast to 0 /recast time not 0MP. For me, having another MP user in the party to Refresh doesn't so much hurt me MP~wise, but it's the /recast that gets me. If I could use Triple Cast, and Refresh 3 people back-2-back-2-back I'd be much happier than if I used less MP. Having that extra time helps me MB more often (I know, not many RDMs bother with MBs, but some of us do, and take great pride in it.) and make sure I'm not in the middle of a Refresh when suddenly a huge crit hits somebody and they die before I can get off a Cure of any substance.

            I like your ideas for BRD. I'm leveling WAR with a LS buddy who's a PLD. He's a Taru and has a ton of MP, but he still need Refresh. At Lv.56 we're being forced into TP Burns, so BRD are ideal, just doesn't quite work so well with a PLD. If they could hit him w/ at least Ballad II, and still hit the rest of the melee with their songs, life would be easier.

            On the other hand, I do see Icemage's point. 3 of the most needed jobs don't really need anything to make them more popular. Do something to help out the other jobs. Auto Refresh for DRK, or more mobs that are Aspirable. They've done a lotta things for DRG to help their "popularity," but how about MNK before Asurian Fists? (Then again that could just be user education. People just don't see how amazing MNKs can be even before Raging Fists.)

            I only leveled COR to Lv.5 so I could get that Die outta my inventory, and I haven't leveled with many of them, so I don't have much of an opinion or feedback on your COR ideas. But just reading over your idea, sounds pretty good.
            Odude
            PS2 Beta tester - Cactaur - Rank 4
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            • #7
              Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

              Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
              I consider the expense of COR to be the idiot filter RDM and BRD both lack.
              Open your eyes next time you party. NIN, WAR/nin, any /nin, RNG all have no shortage of idiots playing. Any idiot can throw gil at a job, it's the easiest part of any job.
              I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are.

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              loose

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              • #8
                Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                I'm an all-or-nothing personality. I can't enjoy a PT if I have to cut down on my buff rotation just to compensate for a PLD's unwillingness to position himself for Evokers or Ballad.
                Let's explore this example. ^_^

                If I understand you correctly, you want to make it so COR and BRD can provide optimal support, at least equivalent to the PLD repositioning himself for Ballade/Evoker's.

                What I like about the current situation is precisely that the PLD has to position himself correctly for parties to be optimal--the system rewards working well with BRD or COR--the system rewards teamwork.

                To my eyes, your proposals would actually remove a reward from good teamwork, and that would be less fun.
                Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                leaving no trace in the water.

                - Mugaku

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                  Originally posted by Mhurron View Post
                  Open your eyes next time you party. NIN, WAR/nin, any /nin, RNG all have no shortage of idiots playing. Any idiot can throw gil at a job, it's the easiest part of any job.
                  Seriously. Lack of gil has never been an issue for idiots who want to play princess jobs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten
                    I'm an all-or-nothing personality. I can't enjoy a PT if I have to cut down on my buff rotation just to compensate for a PLD's unwillingness to position himself for Evokers or Ballad.
                    If the PLD is unwilling to do this, then he gets 2xMinuet with the rest of the front liners .
                    BST66

                    Have you hugged your Taru today =)

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                    • #11
                      Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                      I dont really understand enough of this to comment apart from the RDM part which I obviously think is great...but no comment XD

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                      • #12
                        Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                        Totally wasted time reading this. RDM and BRD (don't know about COR since I haven't touched it) dont need any upgrades at this time.


                        Slap Dat Ho! ^^

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                        • #13
                          Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                          The RDM suggestions are, frankly, insane. Doublecast tier III nukes would leave Tier IV in the dust; triplecast would be pretty close to AM2 damage, unless it's something that resists a lot. And the situation for WHMs is even worse. RDM is already one of the most versatile and powerful jobs in the game, making them better than BLM and WHM at those jobs' primary roles is not a good idea.

                          RDM's classic ability to cast several spells in a short time period is already in the game; it's so powerful that SE made it our 2hour.

                          Lowering the base recast and/or casting time of Refresh seems like a more sensible suggestion if this really is a problem - except it isn't. The recast of Refresh is already enough shorter than the duration that it's quite possible to refresh *six* people, as anyone who's ever been in a manaburn knows. Normal party setups will have maybe four. And if you're refreshing that many people, at least two of them should be capable of emergency heals if someone gets hit during a refresh. (You may need to smack your BLUs and BLMs around a little until they get used to the fact that they can and should heal in a crisis. And between fights if they have spare MP, too.)


                          The main problem with BRD and COR is that there aren't enough of them, but I don't think adding more abilities and making the jobs even busier will help that problem. The main reasons more people don't already play those jobs IMO are (1) they want to be the person doing the big damage, not the person helping someone else do the big damage, (2) those jobs are just too much work and too complicated to understand, and (3) COR is too expensive. Your suggestions won't help the first two problems (admittedly, the first is not fixable by SE at all) and actually worsen the third.

                          And the reason DRG/mage doesn't work well in a party has nothing to do with the scarcity of refreshers; it's the requirement for the target to be below 50% HP before you can heal them that's the main problem. Most people don't want to spend significant amounts of time at that low HP against VT-IT monsters, because it's not as safe as it is when you're soloing/duoing EM-Ts. Without Healing Breath, DRG/mage would be less useful than DRK/WHM, with or without refreshers.

                          The specific COR abilities are not necessarily bad, but the gil cost seems a needless insult. And the numbers need work - Haste (the spell) is something like 25-30% IIRC, a 3-5% haste is pretty much negligible (which is why you have to have 5 or 6 pieces of gear with that much haste EACH before you start noticing the benefit). The only one even arguably worth that cost is the refresh, and even then, the COR who has to use that will be cursing the idiot who won't line up for Evoker's up one side and down the other.


                          Anyway, I'd prefer to see new ways of restoring MP (or support abilities in general) available to jobs that *don't* already have them - a puppet attachment that allows the puppet to give MP to a party member, or a blood pact that restores MP to party members in range, or a DRK JA that gives your next attack a Spirit Taker-like property, etc. That would serve two purposes: those abilities in addition to whatever the RDM/BRD/COR is providing would reduce the dissatisfaction with not having perfect ballad/evoker's coverage all the time, and parties could form and function even without having one of those jobs at all (and not have excessive downtime; of course, the player perception that 10 seconds is excessive doesn't help).

                          It's true that people who refuse to work with the positioning needs of a BRD or COR can significantly reduce the effectiveness of that BRD or COR, but I think this is not a problem with the game but with the stupidity of certain players. In any case, THF has the same problem even more so - the death of teamwork greatly reduces the effectiveness of jobs that rely on proper teamwork for their effectiveness.


                          SE can't solve by themselves a problem created by the players, and the TAU jobs are the clearest possible example of this. We needed more tanks, healers and supporters; they gave us more jobs that can tank, heal and support (namely BLU, BLU and COR). The result? COR is rarer than BRD and SMN; 90% of BLUs only want to DD all the time; and the excess DD problem is as bad or worse than ever. Sure, the next expansion could introduce more support jobs, but if the players won't play them, or play them only as DDs, it won't do any good.
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                          • #14
                            Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                            Originally posted by Karinya View Post
                            The RDM suggestions are, frankly, insane. Doublecast tier III nukes would leave Tier IV in the dust; triplecast would be pretty close to AM2 damage, unless it's something that resists a lot. And the situation for WHMs is even worse. RDM is already one of the most versatile and powerful jobs in the game, making them better than BLM and WHM at those jobs' primary roles is not a good idea.
                            RDM Tier 3 nukes are a joke, not even two can stand up to a BLM Tier 4. BLM and WHM would in no way be left behind, either, as they would have access to Double Cast themselves. BLM's AMs would outmatch Triple Cast and AM2 even moreso.

                            WHM always has more restorative abilities than RDM could shake a stick at and is always needed.

                            If anything, we could arguably push up the recast for Double and Triple Cast, perhaps 5 and 10 minutes respectively, but that doesn't stop Refresh and Haste from being any more of of a manasink than before.

                            Lowering the base recast and/or casting time of Refresh seems like a more sensible suggestion if this really is a problem - except it isn't. The recast of Refresh is already enough shorter than the duration that it's quite possible to refresh *six* people as anyone who's ever been in a manaburn knows.
                            RDM isn't even needed for manaburn, they're settled for in manaburn, I hate to sound condecending toward RDM in that regard, but its the truth. Bards and Corsairs are invited to manaburn to maintain refresh and pull more than any RDM is. COR beats both jobs hands down for MP recovery with Healer's Roll, Evoker's Roll and then there is the Magic Attack Bonus from Wizard's Roll and even Corsair's Roll if the BLMs have AM2s already.

                            Refreshing six people is a strain on RDM's MP no matter how you cut it, especially so if a Haste cycle is required, which is often the case in EXP PT, in addition to sometimes having to handle status cures which just makes it worse.

                            Normal party setups will have maybe four. And if you're refreshing that many people, at least two of them should be capable of emergency heals if someone gets hit during a refresh. (You may need to smack your BLUs and BLMs around a little until they get used to the fact that they can and should heal in a crisis. And between fights if they have spare MP, too.)
                            Even with four Refreshes, that Haste is an MP killer, not to mention Cure III.


                            The main problem with BRD and COR is that there aren't enough of them, but I don't think adding more abilities and making the jobs even busier will help that problem. The main reasons more people don't already play those jobs IMO are (1) they want to be the person doing the big damage, not the person helping someone else do the big damage, (2) those jobs are just too much work and too complicated to understand, and (3) COR is too expensive. Your suggestions won't help the first two problems (admittedly, the first is not fixable by SE at all) and actually worsen the third.
                            (1) True

                            (2) Not true at all, you could get stack of bricks to play BRD. Its dreadfully easy to play and inexpensive to boot. The problem is people just see BRD as a means to an end and play it poorly, which is much easier than playing it well, which is still easy.

                            (3) Corsair is expensive, but its not that expensive. Elemental Card are dirt cheap, you shouldn't even be buying crafted ones when two NPCs sell them for less already. Bullets 22-49? Same thing, NPCs are cheaper for those. Iron Bullets are where the job gets more expensive and the only way to fix that issue is by spreading out COR's ammo options without taking away from RNG. That solution is simple - give COR access tocrossbows.

                            As for there not being enough BRDs, not true. There are more BRDs out there than you can shake a stick at. Fact of the matter is lots of people just play it to get into an HNM or horde away merits and never pull it out otherwise. Hell, I'm thinking about rebuilding my BRD just for meritting other jobs.

                            Not enough CORs? I'm actually fine with that, it fixes the above problem with BRDs. The only set of people that have tucked COR away never to play it again were the ones that bumrushed the job to 75 after release. Perhaps not all people who got to 75 fast did that,. but I don't see many of those types play COR now.

                            And the reason DRG/mage doesn't work well in a party has nothing to do with the scarcity of refreshers; it's the requirement for the target to be below 50% HP before you can heal them that's the main problem. Most people don't want to spend significant amounts of time at that low HP against VT-IT monsters, because it's not as safe as it is when you're soloing/duoing EM-Ts. Without Healing Breath, DRG/mage would be less useful than DRK/WHM, with or without refreshers.
                            DRG/WHM does not take that long to cure somone, if they did, then they wouldn't be able to solo as well as they do. They are the most MP effienct healers in the game when given the chance. T mobs are no more or less of a threat than VT and IT, especially so in solo.

                            Factor in the cost and recast of Power Attack from /BLU and they're even faster at getting a cure out.

                            The only one even arguably worth that cost is the refresh, and even then, the COR who has to use that will be cursing the idiot who won't line up for Evoker's up one side and down the other.
                            Hence the adjustment concept. People lining up would be no less annoying, but at least we'd have something to resolve it.

                            Anyway, I'd prefer to see new ways of restoring MP (or support abilities in general) available to jobs that *don't* already have them - a puppet attachment that allows the puppet to give MP to a party member, or a blood pact that restores MP to party members in range, or a DRK JA that gives your next attack a Spirit Taker-like property, etc.

                            That would serve two purposes: those abilities in addition to whatever the RDM/BRD/COR is providing would reduce the dissatisfaction with not having perfect ballad/evoker's coverage all the time, and parties could form and function even without having one of those jobs at all (and not have excessive downtime; of course, the player perception that 10 seconds is excessive doesn't help).
                            We already have a legion of MP gear and food options to cover refresh issues, the key problem is that people just don't use them, as I've stated. WHM already can sacrifice HP to give another PT member MP, albeit through the merit ability Devotion. PLD has Chivalry which does the same for TP to MP on the PLD. Givings PUP such a ability wouldn't be a terrible idea, but it wouldn't vastly improve the job either, especially so if they were invited in the light of no RDM, BRD and COR, it would just damage the PUP's reputation further.

                            Other jobs getting a main job MP-restoration ability is a bad idea on every possible level as it takes away from five other jobs.

                            DRKs are played to be damage dealers and, as you've already stated, that's what people play damage dealers. Its not a support class. If anything were to be added to DRK, its should be Dispel, which already fits into their theme of crippling an enemy. An MP drain ability, while thematically consistant as well, could serve to piss off BLMs rather well and by your reasoning my proposed RDM adjustment is already taking away from them.

                            It's true that people who refuse to work with the positioning needs of a BRD or COR can significantly reduce the effectiveness of that BRD or COR, but I think this is not a problem with the game but with the stupidity of certain players. In any case, THF has the same problem even more so - the death of teamwork greatly reduces the effectiveness of jobs that rely on proper teamwork for their effectiveness.
                            And since people are stupid, SE needs to fix the jobs to compensate for that. People wouldn't invite DRKs until they could Absorb TP, the playerbase actually needed that lightbulb shoved in their head to make them see DRK was good. SAM adjustment took that even further.

                            People invited COR with the assumption they were "just like" RDM and BRD, we were expected to Sleep and Dispel when we couldn't. SE had to give us those things because people were stupid.

                            SE has compensated for community stupidity, they just can't fix personal stupidity.


                            SE can't solve by themselves a problem created by the players, and the TAU jobs are the clearest possible example of this. We needed more tanks, healers and supporters; they gave us more jobs that can tank, heal and support (namely BLU, BLU and COR). The result? COR is rarer than BRD and SMN; 90% of BLUs only want to DD all the time; and the excess DD problem is as bad or worse than ever. Sure, the next expansion could introduce more support jobs, but if the players won't play them, or play them only as DDs, it won't do any good.
                            I won't disagree that SE can't fix the player base, in fact, I said it, too. I say that alot, actually. I don't think we need more healers or support classes, however, we just need ways to make them more attractive.

                            Scamming Rosa's ability to use Bow and Arrow might just be the thing WHM needs, as WHMs want in on the actio yet are insisted upon to stay in the backline. So long as it doesn't take away from RNG or COR and distract them too much from their duties, that is. I know it doesn't exactly fit into the cleric themes, but still, it is a historical nod to FFIV at the very least.

                            RDM enspell damage could use a fair boost. That alone would make them more worthy of the frontline than they already are. Enspells are nice for solo, but pretty weak otherwise.

                            BRDs don't get to deal damage with instruments, yet Edward did. He was a DD beast with Apollo's Harp - especially against the undead - though that was a recent addition in the rerelease of FFIV in 2005. I think an ability to do more sonic damage (more than Requiem) to a mob would be appropriate at least, though I'd make it a five minute job ability as to not deter BRD from main duties.

                            COR already gets to DD, so I don't see the need for more of that. However, they are the only job in the game that can refresh job abilities and the recast for Random Deal is horrible, even with merits. Knock it down to 10-12 minutes and you have something much more attractive. Before anyone goes as says that's overpowered, Random Deal can't reset Two Hour abilities, only Wild Card can and that's still totally chance.

                            BLU can be a healer when set up to do so, its a big interest for me and part of why I'm going to level up BLU beyond its DD and ability to solo, which are also appealing. RDM just doesn't interest me in the same way anymore. I can't think of one more thing to give BLU, if anything, they need to be toned down a bit.

                            PUP is actually designed to support already - even given gear that makes it rather obvious - people just refuse to play it as such. They could stand to get a bump up to B rating in H2H and they only stand to see more and more puppet attachments.

                            I've always seen PUP as the spiritual version of the Mime class as the automation can simulate the functions of various jobs, maybe giving PUP a Mime job ability (Mimic the previous job ability, spell or WS of another PT member) would be something. Though they'd have make it PUP-only, not stackable with another Mime and not reproduce two hours, lest we get into that Knights of the Round thing you could do in FFVII, which would be unbalancing in the online world.

                            Shiva does Double Slap. PUP does Double Slap.
                            MNK does Asuran Fists. PUP does Asuran Fists.
                            WHM Casts Cure III. PUP casts Cure III.

                            It would take some timing, but it could have practical applications.
                            Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 02-09-2007, 08:46 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: So you think BRD, COR and RDM don't need further adjustments, eh?

                              Some of my own thoughts on this.

                              For example, I'm pretty sure most PLD, DRK, and BLUs would love to get the sanction Food buff instead of Refresh, BLU might want to set other spells so they don't have to set up for Auto-Refresh.
                              Toe be honest, thats quite true, a lot of us DO want to use sanction food. My parties are never without an RDM in particular unless we're really stuck, but I always get food sanction. I dont really care, sanction refresh isnt very helpful for me and its not very noticable either, so I get food sanction and eat +1 sole sushi. As someone who is both an RDM and a DRK, I dont see the point in whinging about having to refresh DRKs and BLUs, I just dont refresh then as often as I will a PLD or a WHM because they don't need it that often. BLU spells arent too expensive and other then Stun, DRK spells are used once a fight (if even if you miss the right time for Absorb-TP). They dont need Refresh every cycle, they need it maybe every two unless they rip through Absorbs like theres no tomorrow, and a DRK that does that is just wasting his time when only 3 or 4 are useful at specific times.

                              I've never really noticed a BRD or COR giving everyone Ballad or Evoker's roll hurting the exp to be honest, its not that big of a deal in my opinion.

                              I like the idea about Double Cast. SE have been pushing RDM as "masters of MP use" for a long long time, giving them the better refresh, convert, fast cast, etc. Double Cast makes sense. It would even give more reason for some jobs (solo or exp depending on the job) to use the subjob instead of all mages automatically using WHM without a thought.

                              Although your post is about MP, RDM could do a lot then just be a Refresh whore, Double and Triple cast wouldnt solve the problem of RDM being an incredibly boring job at times with people levelling it just for end-game. Thats not a jack of all trait, thats a jack of one trait and its something that annoys me personally as an RDM that I'm frowned on if I pull out a sword, eat sushi and actually do decent damage while still doing my job. A lot more traits or job abilities could be given to RDM to help its melee ability which definetly exists and was intended to exist without having to sub NIN.

                              I cant really comment on BRD and COR, I've only begun to level COR and have no real interest in BRD. A single target buff would be fun for COR part, but the gil bit would have people not wanting to use it, you would get people complaining "i cant give you single target refresh, im not spending money on it" thus defeats the purpose. Technically people do it all the time, RNGs burn gil by shooting, CORs burn gil by shooting, NINs burn gil by tanking and we all burn gil by buying food, but because we arent actually throwing actual GIL at the mob it doesnt feel as bad.

                              I want RDM to be able to do a good backline job like it does, but I want RDM to be just as good on the frontlines. Picture an RDM doing good damage WSs reliably without having to spend millions on gear the way a DRK or WAR or BLU or SAM or DRG or MNK or NIN or whatever else can. And ofcourse while still being able to do its healing and buffing job. It doesnt sound over-powered, it sounds right for a job put across and made to be that way.

                              The RDM suggestions are, frankly, insane. Doublecast tier III nukes would leave Tier IV in the dust; triplecast would be pretty close to AM2 damage, unless it's something that resists a lot. And the situation for WHMs is even worse. RDM is already one of the most versatile and powerful jobs in the game, making them better than BLM and WHM at those jobs' primary roles is not a good idea.
                              Not exactly. If you've seen RDM (or maybe you are RDM) you'll kow that their elemental tier III nukes are a joke without Chainspell and even then its only really Fire III Thunder III and Blizard III. A BLM can outdamage that with Tier II and have a lot more MP to do it aswell. Besides dont mobs resist spells eventually like you just said? you arent going to pull off a lot of damage unless that mob is really effected by that element and even then you better have a lot of gear to pull off a whole lot of damage with it.

                              Besidges what RDM is going to waste even more MP on doing that when we have a hard time holding onto MP having to Cure, Haste and Refresh everyone as a standard?

                              But, I do agree 101% that we need more tanks.
                              We have plenty of DD's, so much that its sometimes impossible to find a party thus I static on my DRK to guarantee a party. We have plenty of buffers and healers and jobs that can do both, but we only have 2 tanks in the entire game and one of those jobs wasn't even meant to be a tank. I'm talking about NIN and PLD, because you won't often find WAR tanking Imps in Mire or Crabs in Kuftal, and when they do it normally takes two (or a drk/sam/other job with nin sub) and relies on the NIN sub, not its own abilities bar defender and provoke.

                              A new tank should be SE's #1 priority in my opinion.
                              Standablaze
                              Server: Ramuh
                              Jobs: Dark Knight, Red Mage
                              Level: Not stated, because I can't be bothered updating 5 signatures when I level. Lets say mid levels.

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