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  • #16
    Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

    Well maybe if that was involved with a series of Dances, such as the threnody series, and not be the main deal for all the dances. Then you could also give them other, directly controlled Dances to fill in for where the elemental Dance's randomness kicks in. Like say the Fire Dance could do a number of effects randomly providing one at first but slowly growing stronger over time. Like it could have either a DoT, Str down or paralyze like effect and when used at lower lvls would only have one effect proc, but at higher lvls or zones with strong fire unfluence, would have two, three or even more effects of that one dance go off. It would certainly be unique in it's implimentation and effect while still reflecting the Dancers elemental origins.

    Originally posted by Jugil View Post
    Here's my idea
    Geomancer (GEO)
    A hybrid class that harnesses the power of the terrain to enhance, enfeeble foes, and devastate enemies through manipulation of the terrain. Abilities influenced by a particular element are strengthened on the day of the week associated with that particular element. Additionally, weather effects that correspond to the element of an ability affect the strength of that ability.
    Abilities/Spells/Etc.

    Traditionally, geomancers were offensive spell casters, focusing on magic DD and enfeebling. Contrary to most mage jobs their spells are governed by the terrain in which they fight in. With respect to FFXI, this would hinder the GEO since only a limited number of spells would be available at a given time. This type of dependence would exile the GEO class from the start and lead to a lolGEO mentality. Another related issue is that in many areas, the mobs you find are strong to the element of the terrain (e.g. leveling on Anticans in Quicksand: Ants are strong to earth, which would predominantly be the element of QC’s terrain).
    Due to these limitations, I propose that the GEO have access to all spells in the GEO arsenal. However, spells of a given element are cumulatively enhanced based upon the day’s element and weather effects. Much like BLU, spells are learned instead of purchased; however, unlike BLU, the GEO learns his spells from the terrain/weather.
    The procedure by which spells are learned, has some similarities to gaining the effects for Carbuncle’s Ruby. This procedure entails having a bell (GEO only) equipped in the ranged slot, and having a crystal of the desired element you wish to acquire in your inventory. Then, the GEO must travel to a zone where the weather effect associated with the desired element is present, much like the Carby Ruby. The crystal will become “energized” when exposed to the weather effect, and can now be used to obtain a spell. It is important to note that the effect can be gathered at any level, but the energized crystal cannot be used until the GEO is the appropriate level. It is also useful to note that these energized crystals are Exclusive, but not Rare. Therefore, it is possible to collect stacks of energized crystals at one time.
    Example:
    Suppose I’m a level 10 GEO from San d’Oria, but want to go ahead and gather energized water crystals. I can equip my bell and head out to La Thiene, ensuring I have water crystals in my inventory. Now I zone in to La Thiene and wait for rain (water weather), then quickly zone back out and in to obtain an energized water crystal. I, however, have to wait until level 18 before I can use the crystal to learn Torrent.
    This class is intended to primarily be a tank with its Defense Bonus traits, enmity generating spells, and damage mitigation spells. In the early levels, the GEO only has virtually no spells, but has a decent rating in Great Axe (B-). Thus, the GEO can use his physical damage to muscle his way through levels 5-10. At level 10, the GEO gains the spell Enrage, which is basically Provoke, but uses MP to cast. Through his teens, the GEO can use Enrage, a Great Axe (much like a WAR), and the various elemental spells (similar to NIN tanks) they learn to maintain hate.
    With level 20 comes the first in the line of the GEO’s damage mitigation spells: Earthen Mail. This sort of gives the GEO the effect of Stoneskin, thus negating physical damage for a set amount. Additionally, throughout the 20’s, GEO obtains a Blink/Utsusemi ability (Zephyr Cloak) and another zero damage buff that negates magical damage (Bubble Field). At level 24, the GEO will receive 2 shadows from Zephyr Cloak, 3 at 48, and 4 at 72 (with capped Geomancy).
    Through the 30’s the GEO gets access to elemental enfeebling spells that lower enemy attributes (much like the BLM elemental enfeebles). These enfeebles follow the same rules of application that the BLM enfeebles do in that only certain spells can be stacked on a mob. Additionally, in the 30’s, the GEO gains the ability to enhance his attributes, but only two of these spells can be active at the same time with a bell equipped, much like BRD songs. Also, like BRD songs, only one of these spells can be active if no bell is equiped.
    At higher levels, the GEO gets access to Protect/Shell/Phalanx type abilities, additional enhancing magic (Fortify, Accelerate, etc.), and more offensive/enfeebling spells (Spirit Talker).
    With regards to GEO as a support job, I see it being capable of enhancing PLD quite a bit. For EXP, PLD typically subs WAR for Provoke; however, with a GEO sub a PLD has access to Enrage at level 20; Earthen Mail, Zephyr Cloak, and Bubble Field from 40-60; and Entrench at 66. Additionally, the PLD can benefit from having more MP since the GEO has natural MP, whereas WAR doesn’t.
    No offense, but a lot of that seems rather familiar O.-
    "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

      Originally posted by Ziero View Post
      No offense, but a lot of that seems rather familiar O.-
      Great Minds think alike

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

        ...I can live with that >_>
        "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

          I've enjoyed reading this thread, and I keep checking it periodically. And although I've taken this month off from FFXI, I have become completely preoccupied with the idea of this thread and building a pretty full job idea.

          That being said, I am here to issue a warning: this will be the first in a series of replies to this thread, wherein I may become quite boring and long winded. Hopefully, my series of replies can culminate in a reasonable build for Geomancer. After the last two GEO concepts by Ziero and Jugil (which were very well thought out and presented ) this may seem like beating a dead horse, but my whole basis for GEO stems from a different feeling about the origins and traditions of the class than what has been presented so far.

          But before we get into any of that, I want to talk about something that seems to have a good deal to do with most of the posts here: Mog.

          ------------------------------------------------------------------
          Mog (FFVI) has been mentioned quite a bit here, all in reference to his precedent concerning not only Geomancer, but Dancer as well. As most of you here have done with your particular job of choice, I have been reviewing Geomancers throughout the series to try to nail down their specific feel and function in order to understand where they could fit in FFXI. And let me say, Mog is such a damned anomoly. Let's look at all different aspects of Mog and hopefully walk away with a more clear definition of who he is, and who Geomancers and Dancers are as well so we can avoid stepping on each others' toes.

          Appearance: Well, we didn't get any visual help here. He's a damn moogle and doesn't look markedly like a GEO or a DNC (or however you wanna abbreviate).

          Weapon Choice: Mog liked spears and daggers. Neither GEO nor DNC used spears at any time, but both have used daggers/knives as their main weapons in different games. Not a lot of help here either.

          Abilities: This is the real doodoo. Mog is officially classified as a Dancer. His moves are called 'Dances.' But arguably, he seems to use Geomancy spells and effects exclusively. We all know this already.

          ---How Mog functions like a Dancer: The only Dancer class before Mog was in FF5. They equipped knives, and their "Dance" command would randomly produce one of four effects. Mog functions in the same way, except that he gets to select a set of four based on terrain. But at this point in the series, Dancer was like a magical Berserker. They just danced and danced, choosing their moves willy-nilly. Mog did the same. He would keep dancing his selected set and cycle through those moves on autopilot. The elemental nature of Mog's dances seem to have nothing to do with Dancers. Even after FF6, Dancers never again had their dances based in an elemental nature. They have traditionally had debuffs of various sorts and the occasional direct damage dance, but never again of an elemental basis.

          ---How Mog functions like a Geomancer: Mog had a set of 4 different spells generated from each terrain style. Geomancers in FF5 acted similarly, drawing one random effect from the four for that terrain (sounds similar to Dancer already). {GEOs in FF3 had only one effect for each terrain, so there had been no random <not counting blasting yourself with a Backfire> nature to the job originally. This aspect of GEO returned in FFT, with the distinction of having many more types of terrain to attach to each move.} Anyway, Mog generated elemental attacks, buffs or debuffs, in true GEO fashion.

          ---How Mog functions like a Hunter?!? (FF5)
          If you look at the specific geomancies that Mog produces, you'll see something very nonelemental in each terrain set. One of the four moves for each terrain was an animal that popped out and did something strange. With the exception of Antlion (which never actually appeared, only a swirly vortex did) and Harvester (which seems to be a being of light or some such crap) they were: Cockatrice (which looks like a cockatoo), Wombat, Kitty (more like a meerkat really), Tapir (they pee backwards! yay), Whump (arguably it's a grizzly bear's testicle with eyes), Wild Bear, Poison Frog, and that ol' Ice Rabbit. I don't need to explain how this is like a FF5 Hunter. If they hollered "Critt!" a seemingly useless woodland creature would swoop in and make an ass of himself. Truly a key move for any self-depricating Dancer/Geomancer hybrid warrior of light.

          ---How Mog functions like no other...
          None of the jobs that Mog borrowed from ever got a chance to choose what set of moves they used. Geomancer got crapped on if he was standing in the wrong terrain, and Dancer always just went nuts with the few moves they had. Once these jobs made their way into Tactics the whole thing was rectified. Well, for Dancers anyway.

          That's all the hair splitting I do on Mog for now. I will continue to work on that GEO build and hopefully return before too long to take a detailed look at the history of GEO in particular. I'll shut up now.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

            Originally posted by Ziero
            No offense, but a lot of that seems rather familiar O.-
            None taken .

            Bells/Axes/Daggers/Spears have been traditionally used by Geo's in FF games: Geomancer. So, kind of hard to get away from that. I chose Staves for the GEO's main as a replacement for Polearms due mainly to the elemental staves (a major focus being Earth/Terra staff).

            I selected GEO to be a tank, because that's what FFXI needs: we have an overabundance of direct DD, a handful of support/healing jobs, and only two dedicated tanks that rely on their sub for a major aspect of the tank job. I feel creating another job that relies heavily on a WAR sub to tank is pointless. And to be honest, the idea of a GEO tank has been bouncing around on forums for quite awhile.

            PLD focuses on damage mitigation and healing, while NIN focuses on dealing damage and completely negating damage. I tried to strike a balance with these two methods, as well as give PLD a sub that would further enhance its own abilities (MP and VIT/Defense boosts). Additionally, I've given GEO little healing capabilities and focused on magic DD/enfeebling to help keep hate (much in the way NIN uses powders). Everyone complains how expensive NIN is; so, instead of using gil, GEO uses MP .

            Just my thoughts on the job: What if RDM could tank

            Edit: Also, I got a lot of my names (Dowsing Rod/Ritual/Spirit Talker/etc.) for Abilities/Traits/Spells from the real world interpretation of Geomancy being a divination/occultism tradition.
            Last edited by Jugil; 01-18-2007, 01:27 PM.
            BST66

            Have you hugged your Taru today =)

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

              Originally posted by Jugil View Post
              Just my thoughts on the job: What if RDM could tank
              I don't know if any of what you just said was directed at me, but I'll go ahead and assure you that I agree with many of the aspects of your and Ziero's ideas. I think the details of where my idea differs from yours is in the JAs, JTs, spells, etc.

              And I'm really with you on the piece I quoted here. To oversimplify, PLD always seemed like a WAR+WHM, and NIN seemed like a WAR+BLM. I was approaching it from the aspect of a tank that didn't focus on curative abilities like PLD or elemental/enfeebling like a NIN, but purely on self-enhancing skills. If I could just come up with 2-3 more really solid abilities, I'd just post the damn thing and get it over with.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                Originally posted by Jugil View Post
                None taken .
                Bells/Axes/Daggers/Spears have been traditionally used by Geo's in FF games: Geomancer. So, kind of hard to get away from that. I chose Staves for the GEO's main as a replacement for Polearms due mainly to the elemental staves (a major focus being Earth/Terra staff).
                I selected GEO to be a tank, because that's what FFXI needs: we have an overabundance of direct DD, a handful of support/healing jobs, and only two dedicated tanks that rely on their sub for a major aspect of the tank job. I feel creating another job that relies heavily on a WAR sub to tank is pointless. And to be honest, the idea of a GEO tank has been bouncing around on forums for quite awhile.
                PLD focuses on damage mitigation and healing, while NIN focuses on dealing damage and completely negating damage. I tried to strike a balance with these two methods, as well as give PLD a sub that would further enhance its own abilities (MP and VIT/Defense boosts). Additionally, I've given GEO little healing capabilities and focused on magic DD/enfeebling to help keep hate (much in the way NIN uses powders). Everyone complains how expensive NIN is; so, instead of using gil, GEO uses MP .
                Just my thoughts on the job: What if RDM could tank
                Edit: Also, I got a lot of my names (Dowsing Rod/Ritual/Spirit Talker/etc.) for Abilities/Traits/Spells from the real world interpretation of Geomancy being a divination/occultism tradition.
                Actually, my comment was about how similar your ideas were to mine that I posted in this very same topic, similar names and all. Guess that means I'm not the only crazy mofo who thinks staff wielding Geos would be good tanks.
                "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                  Originally posted by Ziero
                  Actually, my comment was about how similar your ideas were to mine that I posted in this very same topic, similar names and all. Guess that means I'm not the only crazy mofo who thinks staff wielding Geos would be good tanks.
                  I just like the idea of tanking with an Earth/Terra's Staff (+4/5VIT, -20%DMG taken), and getting a nice chunk of MP back on Spirit Taker :D.
                  BST66

                  Have you hugged your Taru today =)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                    OK, I must keep my word. I promised to give a detailed lead up to my own GEO build, and I shall deliver. For this entry, I will tackle the bare information of...

                    The History of Geomancer

                    Let's take this one section at at time. I'm not getting into how x or y would need to change for an FFXI GEO. Just the facts.

                    Weapons: A rundown of what they've used and when.

                    Bells: This weapon is often cited as a true Geomancer hallmark, being that when it has appeared, only Geomancers were able to use them. In the tradition of old-school FF abstract weapons, similar to harps, bells weren't used to run up and conk a goblin in the head; a stream of music notes would fly out and harm the enemy. Maybe it has something to do with the old belief that the sound of bells repels evil spirits. Maybe it's supposed to remind the enemy of Christmas time, the time of year with the highest number of suicides, and prompt the monster to take his own life. The world may never know.

                    Bells first appeared as a Geomancer weapon in FF3 where they were the only weapon type GEO could use.

                    In FF5, bells appeared again, though they weren't the only weapon usable by GEOs. I can't remember if there was a 'Legendary' bell in the sealed castle or not. Hmmph. There was a Giyaman Bell, Earth Bell, Rune Bell, and...TinkerBell. >.<

                    Total times featured: 2
                    ---------------------------------------

                    Knife/Dagger: Boring. Many jobs can use, have used, and will use again, knives.

                    GEO used knives in FF5, and in FF6 in the form of Mog, though it had no exclusivity or special significance to the Geomancer.

                    Total times featured: 2
                    ---------------------------------------

                    Spear: Wow, that's a bit more in line with manly toughness. Sadly it was only weilded in FF6 by the enigma Mog. Maybe he's just a little rougher than a standard, pure-blood GEO. Maybe he's just show-boating.

                    Total times featured: 1
                    ----------------------------------------

                    Axes: Here is the one standard weapon type that people seem to think is the most trusted weapon of the Geomancer. That's probably because the FFTactics GEO used it well. FFT also happened to be the first time we in the states actually saw a GEO at all, barring any fan-translated emulated versions of older FFs that we never had. That's probably the reason for all the nostalgic feelings people have for axe-weilding Geomancers. Sadly, it seems that axes are not even as favored by GEO as a puny dagger is.

                    Total times featured: 1
                    -----------------------------------------

                    Swords: Go back to the axes section and read it again, this time replacing the word "axe" with "sword." FFT again. Kind of oddly thrown in. The FFT GEO wasn't a sword master; other classes gained access to stronger sword types. But all in all, it's better than swinging your tinkerbells in a monsters face.
                    It might be worth mentioning the FFTA Elementalist here. While similar to GEO, it's not exactly a GEO. Anyway, they used rapier type swords, so if you're feeling froggy, bump that total to 2 appearances.

                    Total times featured: 1
                    ----------------------------------------------------------

                    Summary: So in the long run, GEOs love them some bells and knives. Maybe love isn't the right term. They get along OK. But the GEO has had fleeting romances with axes, spears, and swords. Well, enough of that. On to the next.
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Armor: Not much to say here really. GEOs have traditionally worn light armors, comparable to a mage's gear. FFT GEOs could actually use shields, along with vests, leather crap, and mage robes.

                    Uhhhh.....

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Appearance:
                    Here we go. Let's get a good look at this weirdo, cuz the GEO rarely looks the same. This would probably be relevant to FFXI in terms of AF gear, but I won't go into it in this post.

                    FF3: This is the first time GEO reared its funky head, and honestly, it's a little hard to see what Square was going for. He's got a sombrero with a long, floppy night-cap type hat and a loose, Roman wizard looking blue robe. He also seems to have been stricken with the common BLM affliction, "Gun-shot cartoon soot face."

                    How bizarre (cue the song. NO WAIT!)....


                    I like how SE has this whole revisionist view of their own games history. With the release of FF3 DS, we get to see how they try to tie the GEO to a more iconic image meant to encompass all the looks it's had over the year. In this form, it has the basic look of the original, but tightened up a bit. The floppy hat has been changed to a hood with a bobble on top, reminiscent of FF5's mountain-climber look. The colors have been changed to reflect the blue and white scheme featured by the FFT male-version GEO. All in all, I think it's a pretty good summary of the GEO style.

                    I couldn't find a good screen, so here's the art.

                    FF5: With better graphics came a little clarification. The GEOs looked similar to the FF3 version, but with better detail. It's a little less hodge-podge, and a little more ice climber. The problem with making each character look different in every damn job, is that you still get a kind of scattershot view of what the job quintessentially looks like. The colors were all over the place, but seemed to feature green and teal mostly.

                    The FF5 crew sets out to climb the mountain and grab onto the feet of a pteradactyl....


                    ...I hope they picked up some eggplants and lettuce with faces along the way.

                    FF6: It's Mog. He's a moogle. He looks like a moogle.

                    FFTactics: Now where did this hard-ass come from? Of course, neither the male nor the female GEO looked very tough, but they were way tougher than the old beddy-bye time GEO. The art looked quite different from the actual characters in-game. According to the art, the male was an arian Aztec hippy, and the female was decked out some ass-stomping boots and a nice friar-meets-wizard shirt, with no pants! Look:

                    Artistic interpretation I would say...


                    But the tiny character models didn't show as much detail. The male looked more like a Trojan soldier in some nice blue & white duds, and the poor female looked like somebody stuffed her into a potato sack.

                    ..but I play a GEO on TV!.....


                    and for the sake of argument, I will include-

                    FFTA Elementalist: What would happen if you took away the GEO's reliance on the terrain? You could practically just cast your earthen magic anytime, anywhere. That sounds like a doodoo version of BLM! But it's called the Elementalist, a psuedonym used by GEO in some translations of some games...somewhere. Don't ask.

                    Go go Dragon-Rabbit Zord!
                    Blim- Blam.
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Special Skills:
                    Oh, Geomancer, you. Some people hate you because they think you'd be "just another BLM" if you were here in FFXI. Some people hate you because they think you're job is not useful in any facet. Nobody hates you for being beautiful. Let's look at the geomancy behind GEOs' unique place in the FF universe.

                    It's almost common knowledge that GEOs used a spell-type ability that was based on the element/theme of the different types of terrain in the game. Without going into too much detail, we'll have a look-see at the way GEO worked in the past.

                    FF3: In this version of GEO, each terrain only had one corresponding effect attached to it. There were 7 types of terrain, and 8 total "spells" (they didn't use MP, so they aren't really spells). I don't know why I put that into parentheses; that is an important aspect of geomancy. Although it looks like a spell, it didn't cost MP to use. This puts "Terrain" more in line with physical job skills than it does magic per se. In modern terms, it would be like a Job Ability than anything else. The 8th effect was "Backfire" and it wasn't attached to any terrain. It would happen randomly and it hurt the GEO. How crappy.

                    FF5: "Terrain" got a lot better in this game. Now for each terrain, you would randomly use one of four different skills attributed to it. There were some skills that would appear in more than one setting, so some skills overlapped. Again, there were 7 terrain types in this game, and a total of 23 different effects generated. This game included Job Traits for each job as well, so GEO got a few new skills not associated with battle. "Pitfall" let you see holes and trap-doors that would normally wreak havoc on your dungeon exploring. "DmgFloor" let you move over lava, spikes, and the like, without taking damage from them. This helped flesh out the concept of GEO as less of an elemental mage type, and moved them closer to an explorer/outdoorsman type.

                    FF6: I've already explained the Mog/GEO relationship earlier in this thread, so I'll keep it short. This game had 8 different terrain types, with a total 24 different spells. Again, some overlapped to be included in more than one terrain. It may be worth noting that until FF6, geomancy only attacked. This game included many healing and curative geomancy effects.

                    FFT: Geomancy was a little backwards in this game. You would learn a certain spell, then to actually use it, you had to be on the correct type of panel. There were 12 spells, but there were many types of terrain to use. Of all the different things you could possibly be standing on, these were grouped into smaller categories and attributed to a spell. This sounds confusing. You only chose "Elemental" from your menu, and if you had learned the spell for that ground type, you would use it. If not, you got nothing. After learning a butt-load of spells, you would just roam around and use them willy-nilly, much more akin to the other versions of GEO. Some cool additions in this game were "Counterflood" where you would react to being attacked by using geomancy from the tile you were attacked on. You could also walk on lava, and your movement wasn't limited while moving on rough terrain.
                    One special thing here is that one of the support abilities for the GEO was "AttackUp." For GEO to get an attack boost, that was even further movement away from GEO as a mage class and into a more physical role.


                    That's it for now. Not much else to say about the history of Geomancers in FF. Next time I post in this thread, we'll take a look at how FFXI differs from old FFs, and what GEO would have to abandon/adopt to actually survive in such a game. If you read it all up to here, you are about to fall asleep. I'll leave you to it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                      Hantz totally broke the table (for himself). Interesting background info tho.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                        Originally posted by Murphie View Post
                        Hantz totally broke the table (for himself). Interesting background info tho.
                        I'm a moron. Please explain "broke the table."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                          You're all squished up there. But it's still within the constraints of the page, so I should have used a different term. Anyway, I was just saying nice info! You focused on the wrong part. XD

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                            Oops! Thank you Murphie. I couldn't tell if "Broke the table" was like "jump the shark." So I was a little sheepish about accepting a complement. But Never Again!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                              Now let's think about something useful to the specific purpose of this thread: How a job changes when translated to FFXI. This would be a good topic of thought for anyone that wanted to draw up a job concept for this game, no matter what class it is. Now, I am not, by any means suggesting that I am some kind of expert on the topic, but I have done a bit of reflection on the subject. If anyone here can think of other evidence/examples that I don't hit upon, feel free to bring it to my attention. I think there should only be 3 or 4 big changes that jobs undergo to fit into FFXI, so this shouldn't take too long.

                              1. Fundamental Changes to Role
                              I think the most glaring change a job class can undergo when brought into FFXI, is the role a job plays in a group. Pretty self explanatory, but let's look at some specific examples. Tanking is a good example. I've heard people say that they played FFBlah over again, and they had so and so tank, but c'mon. In those older games, all you could do is stick the punies in the back row and pray that they didn't get annihilated. So back in the day, a PLD like Cecil could knock the crap out of things AND have killer defense and cures. PLD has been made all about pure survival in FFXI.

                              BST may be the best example. This "never meant to solo" back-tracking doesn't fool anybody. Old BSTs were marginally useful in older games (IMHO). All the 'adjustments' to BST put them more in line with old role. But undeniably, BST is very different in FFXI than it was in days of yore. Gambler underwent pretty massive changes to find its way here. Random effects of all sorts needed to be refined to fit some kind of reason. So when the dust settled, COR was a support job. I would never have thought of a job that could wipe out your entire party as support, but we all know how valuable a COR can be to a party. Which leads us to....

                              2-A. Fundamental Changes to Actions
                              COR is the best example, for the reasons given above. Some things just don't make sense in the context of an MMORPG. Kicking your own ass and the asses of your PT makes absolutely no sense in FFXI. So the entire way that the Gambler class worked needed to be changed. You're still playing a baby casino game to get your job done, but not like before. DRK needed to be fattened up to be useful as well, gaining black magic and some unique spells along the way. DRG just hopping up and down is pretty one dimensional. That's all fine and good in a game like FF4. But if you want to be something that stands on its own two feet in a game where everybody needs the tools to do more than just stand there and fight, then you get a wyvern. This aspect of the game is common knowledge and a pretty common topic of discussion. Balance is a huge issue in this game and games similar to it. Just look at any PLD vs. NIN discussion. Balance probably summarizes rules 1 and 2 pretty well in one fell statement. A job has to operate well but not too well, regardless if it has to undergo some fairly large changes from what it was. Period.

                              2-B. Avoiding Difficult Concepts
                              When the last expansion was being leaked to us, piece by piece, just about a year ago, speculation on the new classes was high. Threads like this were popping up everywhere, with any FF job you can imagine, no matter how obscure. But 90% of us could look at a job concept and tell you that there was no way in high hell job X could make it into our game. Some things just don't translate, and if you can't twist a job using rule 1 and/or 2A, then you'd probably end up here.
                              Prime example: Mime. As much as I loved me some Gogo, this just would not work in FFXI. First off, it's probably overly complicated to program a guy using a JA or spell from the full arsenal of either (maybe not?). And secondly, this class would basically supercede and rules of balance and usefulness. He could range from overpowered to completely useless at any given time.
                              A Geomancer needing input for every inch of terrain he/she was standing on, for every effing zone in the entire world is insane. It would never work. But jobs like Geomancer, Dancer, or Chemist could probably use a bit of rules 1 and 2A and come out pretty well as long as they had a little of 2B going on first. This rule is a tool, not used solely to exclude jobs, but to make some more viable in the long run. If you're sitting around scribbling job ideas on a legal pad just to show us andSE how feasible it could be, and you've got the word "MIME" scrawled hugely across the top of the page, I suggest you look pretty heavily at the way SE has used 2B in the past. If you're left with just a skeleton of a job, might I suggest trying....

                              3. Absorbing Other Jobs.
                              Another reason some jobs get shot down before they start, is that they have been nearly completely encased in a job we already have. Usually, this is for a good reason too. Some jobs' definitive aspects are just paper thin. In older games, you could get away with giving any old fighter one unique move and make that a class of its own. That's not fooling anybody these days. "But Hantz, I love the Berserker, I think blahblahblah." I'm sorry to break it to you, but every aspect of Berserkers has already been included in FFXI. Berserk was given to WAR, and since we all auto-attack anyway, the attack boost that went with it is what it gives. WAR may have used all kinds of weapons in the past (they still do), but instead of focusing on swords, the Berserkers mastery of axes was attributed to WARs. What's left; the sabertoothed cat-skin unitard? Well, we have that covered too. Really, there's not even a scrap at the table left for a Berserker to gobble down.
                              Something like Time Mage *might* have a hind teet to suckle on, but it would be a tight squeeze. Haste, Slow, Gravity, Teleport- all job defining spells of the Time Mage- are already used by existing jobs. Higher tiers of those spells might be perfect fodder for a Time Mage, but they would just as likely be damn near game breaking.
                              But as far as rule 3 being inclusive, if you have a job that is almost reasonable, but just a little on the thin side, absorbing a more minor job would be a boon. Let's look at COR again (I love COR, OK?). The gambling abilities are pretty cool, and a good basis for a job. "But what do they do while they aren't gambling? Hmmm, use darts and crap like Setzer? Nah. Oh, let's add in the aspects of the wafer-thin Gunner class. They used guns, and, uh, well they used guns. Let the Gambler suck up the useful part of Gunner and we'll call the whole thing Corsair. Booya."
                              Likewise, RDM took the best of Magic Knight (En-spells). Time Mage was drawn and quatered, then split amongst RDM, WHM, and BLM (one oculd argue that Time Mage was originally just given a group of spells that had belonged to these classes anyway). PUP took the basic concept of a Necromancer (humanoid type pet that fulfills similar roles to jobs we already have) and given aspects suspiciously similar to classses like Edgar's (FF6) machinist (a crapload of tools and mechanisms).
                              There are many jobs in older FFs that are ripe for the picking. If we do get new jobs in the future, I would put money on SE giving them at least 1 or 2 JAs from some job that has fallen by the wayside.

                              4. Defining Theme of the Job
                              Lastly, whatever SE does to a job, they are going to wrap it up in a tidy, pretty package. All the things the job has going for it need to make sense. This is where the AF gear, JAs, JTs, weapon specialization, and background info all come together to form an underlying theme behind the job. Look at any job we have, and you'll see it. I promise. I think this is a huge part of "fleshing-out" a job. It's the sales pitch SE uses to make the job appealing to us. These themes are usually very specific as well. RNG, for instance, isn't just "I gots a bow. I'm Legolas! I'ma gonna surf down that Marid's nose!" No, no. It is set up to be like an outdoorsy, survivalist type. Tracking, hunting, scavenging, conserving, camouflage. And they get a woodsman style outfit. Hell, they even main-hand an axe. It all makes sense.
                              We're not going to see a guy who turns into a chainsaw maniac in this game. Just as how BLU aren't running around weilding a giant fork. In this game, they have a middle-eastern flair, use scimitars, etc. because they have one unifying theme applied to them. I think any reasonable "Fleshed-out Job Concept" should have one.

                              Okay. I think I'm done. That's about all I can come up with in regards to how a job should be shaped to fit into a FFXI-shaped hole. I'll get right on to posting my GEO concept so everyone can tell me how bad it is.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

                                I have to agree with the 4 basic rules Hantz described while talking about creating a new job class, though I do disagree that Mime and Time Mage wouldn't work, but that's another discussion which I'll address at a later date.
                                But just to compare my concept of Geo with the 4 rules:

                                1) Fundamental Changes to Role:
                                In previous FFs, Geo was always a semi random, elemental DD/supporter. This means that the majority of their actions were out of reach of their full control and were intended to deal damage and weaken monsters. In FFXI, having your damage be based on such random abilities is fully considered to be a bad idea. Making it into a DD or even a debuffer would severly limit it's potential if it couldn't control it's own effects. Thus why I felt a auto-self-buffing tank concept would work so well with them. It keeps their classic randomness without hindering their usefulness as the elemental corrilation of mobs has very little, if any, effect on self buffs and defensive actions.

                                2) Fundamental Changes to Actions and Avoiding Difficult Concepts:
                                The main change is that their main ability would occur naturally without their input, it would just happen like DA or Counter. They would also get a list of 'full time' MP dependent, weak elemental spells, which is another thing they've never had(except Elementalist from FFTA). Though they would have a JA to simulate the 'Elemental' ability from FFT, it would be no more then a sort of nod to the past. And with their main ability happening naturally, based on current in game mathmatics and zone effects, and other abilities being similar to other jobs, nothing about this concept is too difficult to implament or ustilize.

                                3) Absorbing Other Jobs:
                                This doesn't happen so much with my concept, rather it's more a big blend of all classic concepts of Geo rolled into a tanking job. Their random elemental nature, the debuffs from 5 and Tactics, Bells and Axes from all their previous lives etc. Everything else about the idea is more or less FFXI based 'original' concepts.

                                4) Defining Theme of the Job:
                                To me, the defining theme of Geomancer is that of a rugged, outdoors-ey, type 'mountainman' who is spiritually linked with nature itself. And as a buff and rugged character, his vit and HP should be high enough to take hits and just shrug them off, but as one who lives with nature would be wise enough to use magical arts. A class that can mix melee and magic type stats in perfect harmoney. Unlike Rdm or Blu, who's magic clearly surpasses their melee or Drk who's melee clearly surpasses their magic, Geo can use both styles fairly well but not be outstanding in either. Their main weapons, Staves and G Axes, would reflect their outdoors-ey, physical nature while their JSE style weapon, the Bell, would assist in their 'spirit of nature' style. Though the main basis for this concept can be found in FFT's take on the class, I tried to incorporate concepts from other versions as well.


                                As for the aforementioned Mime and Time Mage classes, I can and will be posting what i feel would be decent working versions for both jobs. Time Mage is obviously the easier of the two, but I feel i have a great idea to make a useful, balanced and unique version of Mime for this game.
                                "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

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