Fleshed-out Job Concepts

[Wiseman40]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

You may be right Mal. I would like to see that as well. It may be that considering such things we may see a revisiting of blm and rng power. Although you know, those jobs can do it from far away. That just doesn't sit well with some developers.

[Karinya]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

At least that's what I hope they're planing. SE said before that they're not going to nerf TP burns as they feel it's perfectly acceptable (Even though they saw fit to nerf BLM and RNG for doing the exact same thing -.-)

I think they said they weren't planning to *eliminate* TP burns. That doesn't mean that they won't nerf their exp/hr to be the same as that of a traditional party. (BTW, when were manaburns ever nerfed? Except BCNM manaburning, which isn't really the same thing... and which is still viable anyway.)

I don't care whether they raise the exp/hr of some parties, lower the exp/hr of others, or meet in the middle somewhere, but I would like to see a wider variety of party setups have about equal performance to each other (if each party is in a camp and playstyle suited to that party). Right now we don't have that. Whether everyone makes 10k/hr or everyone makes 20k/hr really only affects how easy it is to rack up more merits - the major issues affecting enjoyability of the game (IMO) are relative job desirability and playstyles that are excessively repetitive/unskilled/no teamwork. There will probably be 20-21 jobs after WotG - none of them should be an automatic exp cut to your party just for inviting one.

I've said before and I'll say again that the fundamental basis for true exp reform (for 60+ - below that the game doesn't really have a balance problem, just an "idiots imitating the tactics of merit parties even though they don't apply at this level" problem) needs to be new exp tables for high level PCs, that reward going after monsters of a higher relative level *at least* proportionally to mean time between kills and the chain multiplier, possibly even a little more as a "difficulty bonus".

Low level monsters make DDs, especially melee, do *way* more damage, making hate holding hard to nonexistent; BLMs' ability to penetrate defense and evasion useless; skillchains pointless overkill; and low level monsters also aren't that dangerous when they attack the party, making tanks, enfeeblers and healers less important (to the point that in some modern parties there is no tank at all and the healer also doubles as support and sometimes puller, doing 3 roles at once so the party can cram in more DD - all melee, of course). All this works together to undermine the principles of party design and teamwork that FFXI was founded on.

When the rewards are so greatly in favor of the lower level monsters, that's where the players will gather, adjusting their playstyles accordingly.

A few monster types seem to be abnormally weak for their rated level and Sanction gives a sizable advantage to people who party in areas where it works; but those factors alone aren't the whole story. Mostly it comes back to level, and I think SE knows it. What they will do about it, I don't know, but I hope it works.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

At least that's what I hope they're planing. SE said before that they're not going to nerf TP burns as they feel it's perfectly acceptable (Even though they saw fit to nerf BLM and RNG for doing the exact same thing -.-)

Given: Meleeburns exist; Arrow/Manaburns aren't as abundant

Prove: Meleeburns won't be Nerfed



1. Meleeburns exist; Arrow/Manaburns aren't as abundant - Given

2. Arrowburn = RNG; Manaburn = BLM - Definition of Arrow/Manaburn

3. Meleeburn = {WAR, SAM, NIN, DRG, DRK, BLU} - Definition of Meleeburn

4. Arrowburn = 1; Manaburn = 1; Meleeburn = 6 - Jobs Involved Postulate

5. Square-Enix will not Nerf anything with a large number of Jobs Involved - Anti-Mass-Nerfing Postulate

6. Meleeburns won't be Nerfed - Substitution Property of Common Sense



It doesn't take a Mathematician to point it out.

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Exclusive or not, it's the same basic strategy but with a few of the jobs changed. SE is basically saying "It's okay for X job(s) to do it, but not for Y job(s)".


Also, I hate to nit pick but Skill chains being "pointless overkill" is something of a joke given the bull crap resist rate mobs have against them. That's another big issue SE needs to address, making skill chains worth while (regardless of having someone to MB or not. While I'm at it, how about giving DRK some damn MAB traits so they can put that B+ elemental skill to use?)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Given: Meleeburns exist; Arrow/Manaburns aren't as abundant

Prove: Meleeburns won't be Nerfed



1. Meleeburns exist; Arrow/Manaburns aren't as abundant - Given

2. Arrowburn = RNG; Manaburn = BLM - Definition of Arrow/Manaburn

3. Meleeburn = {WAR, SAM, NIN, DRG, DRK, BLU} - Definition of Meleeburn

4. Arrowburn = 1; Manaburn = 1; Meleeburn = 6 - Jobs Involved Postulate

5. Square-Enix will not Nerf anything with a large number of Jobs Involved - Anti-Mass-Nerfing Postulate

6. Meleeburns won't be Nerfed - Substitution Property of Common Sense

#1 fails because lack of abundance now doesn't justify overkill nerfs when it was popular. BLM was nerfed by favored EXP targets by PTs, not so much the job itself. RNG has been "adjusted" but continues to get nerfed by proxy of other job updates.

#2 fails because RNG no longer holds domain over ranged attacks. COR and PUP also have the ability to do ranged and can participate in arrowburn setups. Hence, its no longer exclusive and you're technically punishing THREE jobs for the past sins of the COMMUNITY, not just the RNG class itself.

I knew plenty of arrowburn RNGs that would gladly bring a MNK or PLD along to PT, it was the playerbase that didn't leave Jeuno without RNGx3 in PT at minimum and the community took advantage of the damage RNG could do to thier benefit, at the expense of other jobs.

#3 and #4 fail because most melee burns tend to be exclusive and require jobs. There are a lot of pseudo melee burn PTs, but true ones had consisted of WAR, MNK, BRD and RDM until recently. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise. If you are a RDM, BRD or COR you always saw multiples of the same melee classes more often than not. Meleeburn is no more or less about exclusivity than Arrow or Manaburns were.

Or do you commonly leave for merit camps without a COR or BRD? I don't think you do. Nor do I think that you do now. I don't see THFs and RNGs out pulling anymore becuse they can't do what COR and BRD can.

RDM and BRD have been a fixture in "burn" since arrowburn PTs. And they moved right on to Rampage PTs right after the nerf. BRD and RDM are no strangers to said exclusivity of either form of melee-type burn PTs, though they're pretty much both a joke now for Manaburn.

#5 fails because SE has mass-nerfed jobs in that past.

March 2004 TP nerf - DRG, MNK signifigantly damaged from this change. SAM and DRK not fareing much better. SE didn't want jobs getting near-full TP returns on multi-hit weaponskills. Penta-Thrust was pretty much the one thing DRG had going for it at the time and SE took it away, but it still affected other jobs with multi-hit WS.

DRGs have always spun it to sound like SE singled them out in that update, but that's never been the case.

SE has stated something is going to be changing with the camps that exist now. It could very well be that these updates are just a preparation for the scaling up of mobs that is to come either in ToA or the WotG zones, or all of them.

Now, I humbly request you stop derailing the thread, Yellow. Not only do you prove time and again how little experience you have with the game, you constantly derail this topic with these pseudo-corrections. I was a BRD when Arrowburn was at its peak and one of the few BRDs that didn't tether himself to to a fucking RNG to get his EXP, I always went for diverse PTs if there was one available to me.

As a RNG and COR now, I see the issues of the job even more clearly than I once did, I don't just look from the outside at RNG anymore.

The topic is "Fleshed-Out Job Concepts." Either we're being creative here and discussing possible future potentials or we're not. Inane crabbing and complaining about the existing balance of the game has plenty of discussion elsewhere, it doesn't need to be here.

[Lmnop]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

No, YM is right on the money. Whether or not I agree with the sentiment, it's a good reason for TP burns not to get nerfed.

I really wanted to go w/out saying anything more, but I just couldn't resist.

#2 fails because RNG no longer holds domain over ranged attacks. COR and PUP also have the ability to do ranged and can participate in arrowburn setups. Hence, its no longer exclusive and you're technically punishing THREE jobs for the past sins of the COMMUNITY, not just the RNG class itself.

Those jobs didn't exist when RNG nerf swept through. That's like writing laws stating it's illegal to teleport into someone's house when teleportation hasn't even been invented yet. Granted, I understand that they're "suffering" for what RNGs -did- but it's not like those changes are going to get rolled back. Their existence has nothing to do with why RNGs got nerfed. It's completely unrelated to the proof.

But you derail as much as we do so... how 'bout that Chemist?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

#1 fails because lack of abundance now doesn't justify overkill nerfs when it was popular. BLM was nerfed by favored EXP targets by PTs, not so much the job itself. RNG has been "adjusted" but continues to get nerfed by proxy of other job updates.

I may not have been around very long, but if I've read up on my history of the game correctly, the logic of that last sentence would imply that RDM has been "nerfed by proxy" itself to a greater extent than RNG with its sheer lack of updates.

#3 and #4 fail because most melee burns tend to be exclusive and require jobs. There are a lot of pseudo melee burn PTs, but true ones had consisted of WAR, MNK, BRD and RDM until recently. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise. If you are a RDM, BRD or COR you always saw multiples of the same melee classes more often than not. Meleeburn is no more or less about exclusivity than Arrow or Manaburns were.

This arguement is also faulty, because even if a party is MNK-only, SAM-only, or BLU-only, it's still a Meleeburn. My arguement stems from the sheer number of jobs that can Meleeburn, and not to mention its sheer simplicity, makes it a difficult thing to nerf, if you even want to nerf them all in the first place.

#5 fails because SE has mass-nerfed jobs in that past.

March 2004 TP nerf - DRG, MNK signifigantly damaged from this change. SAM and DRK not fareing much better. SE didn't want jobs getting near-full TP returns on multi-hit weaponskills. Penta-Thrust was pretty much the one thing DRG had going for it at the time and SE took it away, but it still affected other jobs with multi-hit WS.

DRGs have always spun it to sound like SE singled them out in that update, but that's never been the case.

Melees still managed to function well after the multi-hit nerf, did they not?

Now, I humbly request you stop derailing the thread, Yellow. Not only do you prove time and again how little experience you have with the game, you constantly derail this topic with these pseudo-corrections. I was a BRD when Arrowburn was at its peak and one of the few BRDs that didn't tether himself to to a fucking RNG to get his EXP, I always went for diverse PTs if there was one available to me.

I humbly accept your request: even if you counter-point each and every one of the arguements in this post, and I have a counter-arguement for each of those arguements, I will simply not respond for the sake of your request to stop argueing and staying on topic.

You have contributed much to the community, 'bbq, and I simply do not like argueing with you.

Also, your morality as a Bard during Arrowburns is not at question here, and is totally irrelevant to even the derailment at hand.

As a RNG and COR now, I see the issues of the job even more clearly than I once did, I don't just look from the outside at RNG anymore.

The topic is "Fleshed-Out Job Concepts." Either we're being creative here and discussing possible future potentials or we're not. Inane crabbing and complaining about the existing balance of the game has plenty of discussion elsewhere, it doesn't need to be here.

Totally agreed. Which brings me to . . .

so... how 'bout that <insert job here>?

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

The multi-hit nerf is what lead to the age of RNG (followed thereafter by BLM) in the first place.


Again, I agree with BBQ here in that the nerf was unfair because it punished the job rather than the people abusing it. Now we have people doing the same crap but with a different job set... and this makes it right? Seems like a double standard to me. Let's not forget that BRD RDM and NIN have all been getting a free ride off these parties from Day 1, and yet no one ever complains about that.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

No, YM is right on the money. Whether or not I agree with the sentiment, it's a good reason for TP burns not to get nerfed.

TP burns should not have existed in the first place, the fact that they continue to persist is because SE is afraid to change it now that it is so popular. I'd respect SE a lot of the at least un-did what they did to RNG OR simply scale up mobs LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE to kill the trend in the first place.

What was done to RNG was done because of the climate of RoZ and CoP. The only viable merit camps back then were (1) Weapons in Sky (2) Lufaise Meadows (3) Kindred Demons in Ule Range or (4) Tigers, Cockatrice and Dragons in Kuftal Tunnel.

Did you ever merit in those camps back then? A single roaming PT of RNGs could destroy your PT's EXP per hour in any of them and then your PT probably wouldn't get better than 3k an hour the whole evening.

That was why the nerf happened, but the climate of the game has changed and those camps are no longer our only options, regardless of how lazy players actually are, we have other camps now and the RNG nerf should have been lifted for this fact alone. We're not exactly EXPing on RDM and PLD mobs anymore, either.

Those jobs didn't exist when RNG nerf swept through. That's like writing laws stating it's illegal to teleport into someone's house when teleportation hasn't even been invented yet. Granted, I understand that they're "suffering" for what RNGs -did- but it's not like those changes are going to get rolled back. Their existence has nothing to do with why RNGs got nerfed. It's completely unrelated to the proof.

Whoooooooossssh. Totally missed the point.

"Rangers" didn't do it, that's your old chip on the shoulder telling you that. THE PLAYER BASE pushed arrowburns to the forefront, just like they so TP Burns now. Its the same song we heard in RoZ and CoP/ its just different jobs singing it. Just because those jobs are in the majority does not make it right.

It is sheer hypocrisy for SE to leave RNG as it is now. If they're not going to fix mob defense, they need to give RNG everything they had back. Either burns are bad or they're good and SE needs to decide which it is and balance accordingly instead of punishing players for the past actions of other players.

Chemist concept is in the works, PC is feeling is being a pain today.

[Lmnop]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Whoooooooossssh. Totally missed the point.

Correct. You did totally miss the point (sic). Nothing was ever about jobs that didn't exist. I don't care about what you said because it was missing the point higher up.

Hmm. Starting this post, I'm recycling these words as my own:

I humbly accept your request: even if you counter-point each and every one of the arguements in this post, and I have a counter-arguement for each of those arguements, I will simply not respond for the sake of your request to stop argueing and staying on topic.

You have contributed much to the community, 'bbq, and I simply do not like argueing with you.

No more Malacite + 'Bbq vs. YM + me, kids. Just shut up about it.

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

let's not tear each other's throats out here.

But I think we can all agree that it certainly is unfair of SE to uphold this double standard of theirs. How they solve it is entirely up to them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Still working on the chemist thing.

But the more I look at dancer, I have this odd feeling that there's some tank potential in there. I think such a class would have a high evasion rating as a given and I remember reading that Dancer was seen "charming" the enemy (probably not in the BST sense, more like entrancing/captivating the mob's attention) in Elmer's translation of the Famitsu article. The Charm/Tantalize ability has been used by Dancer before to confuse the enemy and I could only assume, if implemented, it would be a job ability and not a spell.

[Wiseman40]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Still working on the chemist thing.

But the more I look at dancer, I have this odd feeling that there's some tank potential in there. I think such a class would have a high evasion rating as a given and I remember reading that Dancer was seen "charming" the enemy (probably not in the BST sense, more like entrancing/captivating the mob's attention) in Elmer's translation of the Famitsu article. The Charm/Tantalize ability has been used by Dancer before to confuse the enemy and I could only assume, if implemented, it would be a job ability and not a spell.

These seem more like CC abilities than tanking, which would put them in the support category as well. High evasion plus CC would be much less effective than having a PLD or NIN do the tanking while the DAN uses CC abilities on the enemy from the site while doing some melee.

I would expect in fact to have more CC from Time Mage (if that ends up being confirmed). We would have to see things like Slow II, Slow III, Stop, Stop II, etc. It would be difficult to compete with those.

[Lord Nat]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Was sleepy and randomly ranting in my head about a more combat centered random based class so in my half asleep state I wrote this up:

Gambler

Gambler:
The Gambler is to the Corsair like the Dark Knight is to the Paladin. It plays the roll of DD with random effects that range for powerful to useless. Fitting with the idea of the Gambler the main power of the class is Slots that take Gill to use. For weapons they use the new throwing weapon know as Dice.

Weapon: Dice - A thrown weapon that stacks to 99, each level of Dice has a damage range (starter dice being 0-5) and it randomly rolls it’s damage bonus each time you use it.

2 Hour: GP Rain: Slots can be used with out draining Gill for 1 min

Level 1: Slot
Casting Time: 0:10
Recast Time: 0:30
To use slot to have to have a Slot item in your offhand (can still use a one handed weapon along with it). Slots are Rare/Ex items that are only gained from quests.
Using a slot takes a set number of Gill away from you based on the Slot used. Using a slot will give you 3 spinners in front of you (can be seen in 3rd or 1st person few) that randomly give 3 results. Based on the results an effect is made.
The effects damage/power is based on your Cha stat, So while most slots can be gained at low levels (or even level 1 with help) it is still more a matter of using the slot that is needed at the time then having the most powerful one.

Slots are:

Chocobo Slot (Based on Serzer from FF6)
Cost: 10 Gill
This slot is gained in the Job Flag quest.
The effects are mostly damage based with one healing.
Any 3 not matching (Other then Joker Doom): Lagomorph - Cure Effect on self
3 Lights: Flash - Blind Effect with small amount of damage
3 Chocobos: Chocobop - as Blue Magic Foot Kick
3 Crystals: Magicite - Random Avatar attack at 1/4th your level.
3 Bombs: H-Bomb - As a Physical damage Bomb Toss
3 Bahamuts: Mega Flate - good Non-Elemental magical damage to one target.
2 7s and 1 other: Joker Doom - Slot fails and recast time is set to 3:00
3 7s: 7-Flash: Blind and high damage over good area.

Mog Slot: (Based on Cait Sith from FF7)
Cost: 50 Gill
Gain from a new Mog House quest.
The effects are based more around boosting your self in combat.
Any 3 not matching: Unlucky - You are given random “Attribute Down” status effect
3 Moogles: Mog Dance - Heals small amount (around 15%) of partys HP/MP
3 Toys: Toy Soldier - 6 weak hits on target
3 Monsters: Pet - Gain a random Pet (off a small list of about 3-5) for 2:00 (acts on it’s own to defend you)
3 Large Moogles: Transform - Gain all the Ability Up effects for 1:00
2 Moogle Faces, 1 Other: Death - Effected by Weakness for 0:30
3 Moogle Faces: Victory - Next kill (time limit of 5:00) gives 100% extra EXP.

Attack Slot: (Based of FF10's Attack Reels)
Cost: 20 Gill
Gained from quest ending in Solo NM fight with a Hume War
Gives 3 random numbers (0-10) and deals damage by multiplying the 3 numbers.
3-5-10 = 150 Damage
1-2-3 = 6 Damage
10-10-0 = 0 Damage
10-10-10 = 1,000 Damage
This gains upgrades as you level that boosts the damage as well:
level 25: x2 (1-2-3 = 16 Damage)
level 50: x5 (1-2-3 = 30 Damage)
level 75: x10 (1-2-3 = 60 Damage)

Magic Slots (Based off FF10's Magic Reels)
Cost: 500
Gained Gained from quest ending in Solo NM fight with a Tart Blm
Gives 3 random colors (one for each element), casts the basic level spell for that colors element (I.E. Red = Fire). This effect is based on your Int unlike other Slots (Int not being a high stat for Gambler makes the spells weak and such balances the fact you are casting 3)
So Red-Blue-Brown = a casting of Fire, Water, and Stone
If you get more of the same color it upgrades the spell.
Such as: Red-Red-Blue = Fire 2, Ice, or like: Red-Red-Red = Fire 3

A few other slots based on the other roles as well like a Healing based Slot, Slots based on the monster types that give powers like those monsters (a little Blue Mageish but based around more of the idea of the monster then the Blue Magic.) I.E. Goblin Slot giving the none blue magic Goblin/Moblin attacks (Goblin Rush, Paralysis Shower, Etc)
Will write them out of people want me too.

Job Traits:
Level 5: Gill Finder
Level 25: Treasure Hunter
Level 60: Treasure Hunter II

Needs to be rounded out a little, and flavor worked on some (I have some ideas for it tho)...
But ya, thought I might as well post it before I goto bed

[Dymlos]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Lord Nat, we already have Gambler job, it's called Corsair. And if they used that concept no one would use it unless they had 999,999,999 Gil.