Fleshed-out Job Concepts

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

What's up with all the hate? I'm just defending a point, is all. Now, one at a time . . .

I really don't know how to explain it any simpler. If you're so smart, tell me what the difference between enfire and meleeing with Fire IV in place of your regular melee (but still factoring in weapon damage and other factors) is.

Your method is far more broken. Auto-attack with a spell which normally requires a recast of about 35 seconds, and with good reason? Unless there's something in those "other factors" that you've conveniently excluded, that's pretty much the only difference.

Now then, much as I would love to see Time Mage added to the game, SE can't.

Why? It's because they shot themselves in the foot (or rather TIM in the foot) when they created category 2 merits. They can't make Time Mage without giving it Slow II (and at a lower level than RDM no less) but it's already a merit for RDM.

RDM's everywhere would cry fowl (and rightly so) which really points out just how stupid merit spells are. I hope SE gets it in their heads to never pull this kind of BS again and just make the scrolls harder to get. Not to mention RDM's would be a lot more versatile if all those spells could be learned and not have to blow merits upgrading them either.

Now, unless SE plans to make a new scroll anyway (and refund RDM's the merit points spent, or change the system so undoing merits gives back points spent) then Time Mage is utterly screwed.

Or they could just make it and not give it slow 2, but that would be really really lame. Good job SE...

On this matter, you win.

RDM is never going to get to melee in parties. You know it. I know it. To this end, why the fuck do you care if a job comes out that does get to?

To that end, how would you feel if Provoke was taken away from you, as well as all of your heavy armor, and your Defender Ability, and it was all given to a new Tank job, let's say, Barbarian?

"WAR is never going to get to tank in parties (/NINs notwithstanding). You know it. I know it. To this end, why do you care if a job comes out that does get to?" (Note how I stayed above the unecessary curse.)

RDM's are never given the chance to Melee, and in later levels, it really starts showing that even S-E doesn't want our Melee to overshadow our Magic, to the point where they force the other way around. A job which essentially shows "A Meleeing Red Mage the way it could have been" would be the final stab in the back.

In fact, it's (meleeing) its only job.

Ask yourself this: do we need any more Melees? Heck, I don't want Red Mage as an all-out DD, but I at least want our capabilities to be more competent than the alleged "feeble pokes giving the mob TP."

Our healing isn't as good as a White Mage's, nor our nuking as powerful as a Black Mage's, but neitherof our skills in those are so entirely "gimped." Why should it be any different in Melee?

If this came as a huge boost to the RDM job instead of making a whole new one, (not only would they not get sales for having a new job, but) it'd be incredibly hard to implement it in a way that's simultaneously useful to the modern RDM (read: mostly idiots who're capable of 30% of it's maximum functionality) and not overpowered.

Okay, now you're just not making sense. First off, how on Vana'Diel would S-E lose money if they don't specifically have "Mystic Knight" in it? Malacite would buy the expansion, anyways, even if S-E blatantly stated that Mystic Knight would never work in the game.

Second off, I think your support for Mystic Knight only comes at a gurdge against Red Mages concerning your statement against them. Make Enspells more useful, though not exactly Malacite's "Sword + Fire IV every 3 seconds," give us scrolled Enspells II, and Meritable Enspells II.

In fact, drawing from Malacite's idea, it would be nice it the Enspells would act more like thier namesakes. "Enfire" would imbue a Sword with "Fire," "Enstone" with "Stone," "Enthunder II" with Thunder II, and, drawing from Dak's idea earlier "Ensilence" with Silence (though they all would probably have to be somewhat weaker in order to not outdo thier Spell counterparts). What Malacite wants is now in the game, and everybody's happy, nobody disappointed.

That said, I know what you mean about aesthetics. However, no one seems to care that Blue mages have better Skillchain ability than Samurai. No one seems to care that PLDs have Auto-Refresh but not RDMs.

Ah, Blue Mage . . . really, it upset more Red Mages than Samurai. Plus, nowadays, fewer people appear to be caring about skillchains, anyways.

Plus, Red Mages can Refresh themselves, and PLDs needed that Refresh, anyways. (I plan on subbing Paladin, anyways, so I guess I'd be a little non-caring on that issue.)

Would we all be happy if we looked at it like this?:


WHM BLM
.....\ /
.....RDM
...../ \
PLD DRK

Why, yes, yes we would be more happy if it looked like that. But now, it's something like this . . .

..............BLM
WHM RDM
........../\
........./..\
......../....\
......./......\
....../........\
PLD...........\
..................\
...............DRK

Let me be blunt: Yellow Mage, the only one that really cares about this is you. Enspelling has never been RDM's thing. Not in previous games, and not in FFXI. It's a useful and powerful soloing tool that happens to belong exclusively to RDMs.

Oh wait, SMN is stealing your thunder. Let's e-mail S-E!

Red Mages were always Mageknights: a "Mystic Knight" would be a horrednously blunt blow to that title.

And, honestly, what SMN uses "Rolling Thunder" to aid thier Staff attacks? It's a party-wide buff, and should be treated as such. That last part of yours, in all honesty, was a bit immature.

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Wasn't the male dancer outfit in FFV kinda flamboyant and latino-looking?

Yes it was.

= ????

And Yellow Mage, RDM isn't mystic knight. The two jobs have always existed separately. IMO SE just got lazy and decided to do a lame tribute to them by giving RDM enspells. I would have much rather seen RDM get their classic double cast ability, but that got changed into fast cast since it's no longer turn based combat (well, it still is but different)


As Armando sugested (pretty sure it was him) the spellblade model for nukes would provide an elemental damage bonus that gets added along with base weapon damage (based on spell tier) to determine the final outcome.


The biggest problem lies in balancing the damage output. I just had an idea on that though; 1 of either 2 of these (both would be really harsh) could be done to keep the job in line at least for end game.


1) Since it's still a spell, the same rules for dealing magic damage to NMs apply. This means that constant swinging of a spell will jack up a monster's resistance, which is not good.


2) Because it's also a melee attack, level based penalties could factor in. You'd still be doing more damage than other melee jobs, but still can't match the spike damage of a BLM due to the level penalties.


That's all I can think of at this hour for balancing the job. Really, I'd rather leave it up to SE. I'd be happier than a pig in shit if they just put it into the game.

ME LIKEY SPELLBLADE! > - > (Family Guy on the brain... "Me likey bread sticks! Me likey bread sticks!")

Red Mages were always Mageknights: a "Mystic Knight" would be a horrednously blunt blow to that title.

Given that the basis for enspells and the job that used it came out in 1992 I'd have to say no to that statement. Enspells IMO were a mistake on SE's part. Yeah, I know that's going to tick off a lot of you RDM lovers, but it's not something the job did originally.


I'm not trying to bash RDM here either, it's one of my favorite FF classes ever. I just don't like the direction SE has given the job in 11. I much prefer the FF1/5 versions to be honest.


What RDM could use are some honest melee traits (and really why don't they have any? RDM is the model hybrid job) and some better gear selection for it. Obviously not Haub, but maybe something decent (that isn't impossible to obtain >. >)


A- sword skill to match BLU would be a good start too.


Oh and Armando:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/D...l_Fantasy_V%29




http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Knight

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/R...l_Fantasy_V%29

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Mage

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/R..._Fantasy_XI%29

RED MAGE: Able to learn both white and black magic spells, red mages can wield blades as well, making them versatile fighters.

Mystic Knights enchant blades with different spells. They can also create a barrier to weaken enemy magic attacks.

Both of the above quoted straight from FFV Advance Manual.

[Aeni]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Perfectly balanced.

You realize that my attempts promoting time mage in this thread was folly at best? I was just entertaining myself with a list of things that a time mage could have, but would more than likely not get. It's all silly banter anyway.

While we're at a discussion on balance, you should've criticized X-Zone and Doom instead. Now that's game breaking if that was ever to be implemented (Would be cool to X-Zone players during Ballista though...)

I like the art from FFT better:

http://www.ffshrine.org/fft/scans/Fi..._ntsc-back.jpg

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

If they do GEO, I'd much prefer it be GEO from FFT or Mog's Geomancer/Dancer hybrid. But I somewhat loathe the idea of making the job totally dependant on terrain to do its work, I think it would ultimately restrict the job more than help it, which is why more and more I skew to the Mog version.

Similar to BLU, you'd just learn thier magic under a specific enviromental or weather condition and then be able to use it anywhere and be subject to the usual rules of magic. This keeps it simple and doesn't restrict the job to terrain other than for learning. No bells (that's too hokey anyway) or having to stand on snow or in ice weather for an ice spell.

[Aeni]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

If they do GEO, I'd much prefer it be GEO from FFT or Mog's Geomancer/Dancer hybrid. But I somewhat loathe the idea of making the job totally dependant on terrain to do its work, I think it would ultimately restrict the job more than help it, which is why more and more I skew to the Mog version.

Not terrain dependant. But, maybe add in "bonus" to the effect of the abilities if used on the "proper" terrain?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Not terrain dependant. But, maybe add in "bonus" to the effect of the abilities if used on the "proper" terrain?

I think that would work, yes.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Deep down inside, I want them to add three jobs with absolutely no FFXI related origin. I would love to see some of the reactions.

[Armando]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

2) Because it's also a melee attack, level based penalties could factor in. You'd still be doing more damage than other melee jobs, but still can't match the spike damage of a BLM due to the level penalties.

This doesn't make any sense. It's a purely magical attack, so it wouldn't take a penalty in damage. Instead, it'd take a penalty in accuracy, like any nuke (including BLM's) does

While we're at a discussion on balance, you should've criticized X-Zone and Doom instead. Now that's game breaking if that was ever to be implemented (Would be cool to X-Zone players during Ballista though...)

Technically both those spells could work. X-Zone could have a high level requirement, eat a metric ton of MP and have a high resist rate (sorta like BLU's 1000 Needles, lol.) Doom could also have a hefty MP cost, and it could have a timer so long that killing the mob the old-fashioned way would be more efficient.

Also I hate to echo other people's posts but I agree that while GEO's ability selection shouldn't be restricted by terrain, the job would lose its theme if terrain didn't come into play. There's a couple of things you could give it, like turning terrain into a third form of day/weather bonus, and maybe even let them exploit day/weather bonuses 100% of the time, like sea obis do. Or perhaps give their spells an extra effect for being in the right terrain (like spells that are normally there just for damage turning into damage + an enfeeble.)

[Lmnop]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

To that end, how would you feel if Provoke was taken away from you, as well as all of your heavy armor, and your Defender Ability, and it was all given to a new Tank job, let's say, Barbarian?
"WAR is never going to get to tank in parties (/NINs notwithstanding). You know it. I know it. To this end, why do you care if a job comes out that does get to?"

It wouldn't be taking away anything from Warrior. It'd be more like making another job who has superior shield skill/access to defensive gear, more Defense Bonus traits, and more job abilities that negate damage -- sayyyyy something that gives rediculous damage reduction for 30 seconds. Doesn't even involve the broken defense formula. Oh ya, they already made Paladins.

(Note how I stayed above the unecessary curse.)

Yeah, sorry about that. I simply don't get enough chances to swear. Don't think it was implying enmity towards you.

RDM's are never given the chance to Melee, and in later levels, it really starts showing that even S-E doesn't want our Melee to overshadow our Magic, to the point where they force the other way around. A job which essentially shows "A Meleeing Red Mage the way it could have been" would be the final stab in the back.

Blue Mage. And yeah, everyone was so busy bitching about how BLUs are RDM+1 that they never stopped to realize just right I am on a "concept" level when I point out that BLU can self-SC 60x more often than Samurai can. Yeah yeah bla bla, SAMs close stronger SCs. My BLU friend regularly fires off 1k damage attacks in exp party. It takes /thf for my SAM friends to do that regularly.

Ask yourself this: do we need any more Melees? ...<points about RDM should get more melee stuff>

Second off, I think your support for Mystic Knight only comes at a gurdge against Red Mages concerning your statement against them.

Yeah, no. I don't even want Mystic Knight, we have too many sword users. I just don't like your stance as to why it's a terrible idea. My brother was a melee RDM. And worse, he was very very good at it. Parties just didn't like it. We're talking more money in melee gear than most melees as well as having top notch mage gear. Did all of his RDM roles but also contributed to DoT w/out wasting magic on nukes. You couldn't be more wrong about how I feel about RDMs. Everyone always says RDM are overpowered because they can solo soo well. No one likes to point out that it takes 10 minutes for a RDM to solo what a NIN soloes in 2 minutes tops. RDM won't be getting solo chain 4 any time soon. BLU will.

Okay, now you're just not making sense. First off, how on Vana'Diel would S-E lose money if they don't specifically have "Mystic Knight" in it?

I was humoring myself. That's why I made it parenthetic. It was a silly way of saying "we know there'll be a new job. And we know that no matter what, it'll step on someone's toes."

Make Enspells more useful, though not exactly Malacite's "Sword + Fire IV every 3 seconds,"

I don't think the intention is that they'd do BLM damage every 4 seconds. They'd just do higher-than-one-handed-melee damage.

In all honesty, I don't think Mystic Knight should/would be added. But that doesn't stop me from thinking about how it could be balanced. And I think "stealing RDM's thunder" isn't really a valid enough reason to bash the whole idea.

[Tokitoki]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Deep down inside, I want them to add three jobs with absolutely no FFXI related origin. I would love to see some of the reactions.

I hope so too.

[Ziero]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

BRP's idea on Geomancer makes heavy use of terrain

No, it doesn't. The only thing that uses terrain is the fact you have to enter a zone, use a bunch of items (which btw, how do we get one specific element when all zones have multiple elements?) and then use any spell of that element anywhere freely...until you run out of items and have to run across the world again.

However, I feel both job concepts are a bit lacking in one area: Elemental resistance (both player and monsterwise.)

Agreed, but there are other Geo ideas in this topic who accomplish that task.

Regarding tanking: Personally, I'd rather not see Geomancer depend on Stoneskin. We already have one job that depends on recast timers to nullify most damage taken. The stoneskins should be weak enough that a Geomancer isn't relying on them to not take damage, but absorb enough HP every so often to be useful (think Flash.)

Again, agreed, and again other ideas in this thread accomplish this.

I find Ziero's reasoning too weak to respond twice to.

Seeing as you completely missed the entire point of my not liking your concept, though I will admit I originally made the mistake of saying 'nin/blm' when I meant 'nin/rdm', I didn't really consider your 'counter argument' an actual response. But hey, it's ok, insults and flamebaiting work just as well.

Now then, much as I would love to see Time Mage added to the game, SE can't.
Why? It's because they shot themselves in the foot (or rather TIM in the foot) when they created category 2 merits. They can't make Time Mage without giving it Slow II (and at a lower level than RDM no less) but it's already a merit for RDM.
RDM's everywhere would cry fowl (and rightly so) which really points out just how stupid merit spells are. I hope SE gets it in their heads to never pull this kind of BS again and just make the scrolls harder to get. Not to mention RDM's would be a lot more versatile if all those spells could be learned and not have to blow merits upgrading them either.

SE has removed and altered spells currently ingame before, I don't see slow2 stopping them from adding Time Mage. Though I do agree it would have to be altered to a scrolled spell for Rdm, or removed and replaced by a different, unique debuff(i'd suggest amnesia) if Time Mage did get it. But other then that, the job is quite possible.

If they do GEO, I'd much prefer it be GEO from FFT or Mog's Geomancer/Dancer hybrid. But I somewhat loathe the idea of making the job totally dependant on terrain to do its work, I think it would ultimately restrict the job more than help it, which is why more and more I skew to the Mog version.
Similar to BLU, you'd just learn thier magic under a specific enviromental or weather condition and then be able to use it anywhere and be subject to the usual rules of magic. This keeps it simple and doesn't restrict the job to terrain other than for learning. No bells (that's too hokey anyway) or having to stand on snow or in ice weather for an ice spell.

Back to Geo! I'd prefer it if at lower lvls they had to 'depend' on it's enviornment, but as they grew higher and stronger they'd actually gain abilities to *alter* their environmental influences. Through equip(such as bells as a Ranged item that acts as nothing more then an enhancement piece), JAs, JTs and possibly self contained spells.

As for the Mystic Knight vs Redmage deal, a Redmage *never* had sword magic until this game. And when it was added, before refresh and dispel I believe, when Rdm weren't the awesome support they are now, but rather a weaker Whm, Blm and War combined, the job of Rdm was the 'worst' job in game. Even when Rdm had full capabilities to use their En-spells in party to their fullest extent they weren't that impressive. But taking that one concept, and modifying it for the class it was originally created for, while adding new abilities for a job to bring out the full attack power of the sword would be a very welcome addition imo.

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Similar to BLU, you'd just learn thier magic under a specific enviromental or weather condition and then be able to use it anywhere and be subject to the usual rules of magic.

Basically what I said a few posts ago. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks about GEO in this way though.

But taking that one concept, and modifying it for the class it was originally created for, while adding new abilities for a job to bring out the full attack power of the sword would be a very welcome addition imo.

Thank you ^^

Whether or not the job gets in the game I get warm fuzzies when people see the novelty of the job ^^

SE has removed and altered spells currently ingame before, I don't see slow2 stopping them from adding Time Mage. Though I do agree it would have to be altered to a scrolled spell for Rdm, or removed and replaced by a different, unique debuff(i'd suggest amnesia) if Time Mage did get it. But other then that, the job is quite possible.

True, and I would really love Time Mage to be in the game. However as I said, they'd have to tweak the merit system. You really can't have a time mage without slow 2. That's just a slap in the face to the job.

Personally I'd rather they do away with merited spells entirely and change the system so that people can get their points back when undo merits. It's always pissed me off that if I want to experiment with various merits I have to do a crap tonne of work to undo it all. It's nothing but an annoying time sink.

It would have been much better for RDM if SE had just made their merit spells scrolls at varying levels. Since they're higher tier, enfeebling skill magic could have been made to have a larger effect on them than the lower tier to make up for the lack of "boosting" you got from adding more merits.

[DakAttack]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Basically what I said a few posts ago. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks about GEO in this way though.

So the Geomancer would just be Blue Mage version two?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

So the Geomancer would just be Blue Mage version two?

No, its just the learning method of spells is kinda there with BLU right now, just imagine fighting under a particular set of weather/enviormental conditions to learn your magic. GEO would learn their spells of the course being in these conditions rather than learn magic from a specific enemy.

This is what made Mog more enjoyable to play than other Geomancers, he wasn't restricted to Terrain to perform his magic, only to learn his Geomancing "dances."

[DakAttack]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

In FFT the Geomancer's spells originated more in the ground than from the weather. I'm not sure how it was done with Mog, but learning your spells from the weather seems bland.