Fleshed-out Job Concepts

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

The demand for "pirate" was silly, too, SE merely fashioned that request to suit the role of Gambler - and Setzer kinda was a pirate, he just after a different kind of booty.

Thank God they based it on Gambler, I wouldn't have touched COR were it otherwise.

[Mhurron]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

So if anything it should be even less of a worry that they'll be screwing up Dancer, an older job, or any other potential classes they could still add, including Time Mage, Geomancer, Mystic Knight and hell even Mime.

Depends on who designed it, SE or the players. If the players, be afraid, be very afraid. If SE, well they at least might actually think.

The problem with dancer is that it was the opposite of Bard. Which already exists in a job that was shoehorned into it. Though even that has been pushed aside most situations.

FFXI is running into the same problems that V had. Lots and lots of supposedly different jobs, but only a few real differences. A lot of the jobs just ended up doing the same thing as other jobs with the only differences being the names of the abilities.

honestly I don't even know why Pup is involved in the discussion right now. Regardless of any past jobs, SE will always add more as long as FFXI runs.
So...yeah

It happened, just go with it.

[SHADOBI]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

The demand for "pirate" was silly, too, SE merely fashioned that request to suit the role of Gambler - and Setzer kinda was a pirate, he just after a different kind of booty.

Thank God they based it on Gambler, I wouldn't have touched COR were it otherwise.

The English "pirate" is derived from the Latin term pirata, and ultimately from Greek peira (πεῖρα) "attempt, experience", implicitly "to find luck on the sea". So it was a given to have luck gambler trait =), but SE always surprises me so who knows they might come out with a complete new job like hmmm.... green knight!In King Arthur and King Cornwall, The Green Knight appears as Bredbeddle, and is depicted as one of Arthur's knights. He offers to help Arthur fight a mysterious sprite (under the control of the magician, King Cornwall) which has entered his chamber. When physical attacks fail, Bredbeddle uses a sacred text to subdue it. The Green Knight eventually gains so much control over the sprite through this text that he convinces it to take a sword and strike off its master's head. just something i read Omgwtfbbqkitten

[Wiseman40]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

he same problems that V had. Lots and lots of supposedly different jobs, but only a few real differences. A lot of the jobs just ended up doing the same thing as other jobs with the only differences being the names of the abilities.

This isn't necessarily a problem. In my opinion, having multiple jobs that do the same role, or a variety of practically similar jobs is alright when they have different thematic concepts.

I play summoner for example not because of any particular practical role of the summoner (and definitely not because I love casting Cure III), but because the concept of the summoner is great, and my favorite addition in previous FF games.

If someone absolutely loved mimes in previous FF games they would likely play it in FFXI regardless of its defined role (or lack thereof).

[Ziero]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

The demand for "pirate" was silly, too, SE merely fashioned that request to suit the role of Gambler - and Setzer kinda was a pirate, he just after a different kind of booty.
Thank God they based it on Gambler, I wouldn't have touched COR were it otherwise.

There's nothing here I disagree with.

Depends on who designed it, SE or the players. If the players, be afraid, be very afraid. If SE, well they at least might actually think.

I dunno, I seen some pretty good concepts in some random thread I read once
(though in all seriousness, other then the 'idea' for the job, the playerbase has very little affect on how a job is made. i.e. most people who seriously wanted 'pirate' wanted it to be a pure DD job)

The problem with dancer is that it was the opposite of Bard. Which already exists in a job that was shoehorned into it. Though even that has been pushed aside most situations.
FFXI is running into the same problems that V had. Lots and lots of supposedly different jobs, but only a few real differences. A lot of the jobs just ended up doing the same thing as other jobs with the only differences being the names of the abilities.

Running into? That's been an apsect of the game since it first started. War, Mnk, Thf, Drk, Rng and Blm all do the same exact thing, deal damage. Whm, Rdm and Brd support while Pld and War tank. This is all from the first group of jobs. It's not what a job is supposed to do that makes it different, it's how it does it. Jobs are supposed to be mainly interchangable with other jobs on most events.

Unless it's a very specific quest or mission, as long as a job can accomplish XX task it's invited to do so. In the end there is only three real roles in a party in this game, either you're there to kill, there to defend or there to support. Some jobs can cross between the roles, but none of them ever superceed them.

Yes they may make Dancer an expert enfeebler similar to Rdm, but nin can enfeeble just as well as Rdm too, so can Blu and even Blms and Whms can enfeeble decently when equiped right. But despite that, Rdm can still accomplish tasks and fill needs in certain events and circumstances that no other job can. It's not the big things that make a job different, it's the little things.

And this is coming from someone who plays *the* most interchangable role in the game, that of melee DDs.

[Lmnop]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Wow, I can understand just pointing to my name instead of quoting to save space or out of laziness (though you might as well say "Lmnop:") but 2 people in a row who didn't think my words worthy of quote tags? Harsh. Very.

The point is it is absolutely ridiculous to worry about jobs being "rushed" ...

It's absolutely ridiculous to have 15 pages of forum posts devoted to job concepts that S-E won't listen to. Yet here we are. =) I indulge in this exercise in imagination (though that stopped 2 pages back), and I also indulge myself in thinking about game balance. And realism.

Going back to our "7 new jobs introduced" concept (this is more in response to Ziero), if they were all wonderfully balanced, you bet they'd be loved. But if they decided to release a huge number of jobs like that, what are you willing to bet that they'll all work out wonderfully and that everyone will be happy? Remember, I'm hiding behind the "I'm entitled to think about game balance as if I worked at S-E" clause. I don't hate more jobs for being more jobs. I like job interchangeability as long as it's approached differently and meshes well.

But we all know that the more jobs that get added, the higher the probability of suck.

Tired of all this "woe is PUP" crap

More of a "woe was PUP" but to be even more precise, "woe is PUP's reputation." We'd like to think Reputation doesn't mean much; that this isn't middle school. But let's face it. If the guy with the best gear in the party who's doing half the party's damage says that DRGs suck, people listen. And we know there's a very high concentration of assholes who're actually good at this game (and more importantly, have great gear). Sorry, those are the people who build BG and KI and give us reps to try to destroy. Tough. Don't blame me.

One more thing: Dancer is already doomed.
/point pink frilly AF.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

If the guy with the best gear in the party who's doing half the party's damage says that DRGs suck, people listen. And we know there's a very high concentration of assholes who're actually good at this game (and more importantly, have great gear). Sorry, those are the people who build BG and KI and give us reps to try to destroy

And yet they wonder why the rest of the world "hates" them.

Anywho... let's get this thread back on track, I'm gonna move on to my concept of Chemist in a little while - tonight or tomorrow, though I have business tonight. I'd like to see some concepts on that

[Karinya]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

(though in all seriousness, other then the 'idea' for the job, the playerbase has very little affect on how a job is made. i.e. most people who seriously wanted 'pirate' wanted it to be a pure DD job)

And most people who play BLU now want it to be a pure DD job. That's not the design of the job, but it's how it is currently played (sort of the opposite of what happened to NIN - players ignored some of the job's intended roles).

Yes they may make Dancer an expert enfeebler similar to Rdm, but nin can enfeeble just as well as Rdm too, so can Blu and even Blms and Whms can enfeeble decently when equiped right. But despite that, Rdm can still accomplish tasks and fill needs in certain events and circumstances that no other job can. It's not the big things that make a job different, it's the little things.

NIN don't enfeeble as well as RDM. RDM have every enfeeble NIN has - plus gravity, bind, silence, dispel, sleep, dia, bio. And that's not even counting level ranges where NIN doesn't have all of theirs yet. BLU has most of those (although I'm not sure they can get them all at once) but is very rarely actually *played* as an enfeebler (I think it would be decent at it if you did) - however BLU has very limited ability to buff others; RDM can debuff and buff quite well and heal pretty well too.


I think dancer will be the mirror image of COR - few if any buffs, extensive selection of debuffs, some DD ability but not as much as dedicated DD jobs. (Why show a dancer using Evisceration in the trailer if SE didn't intend them to fight?) It may enfeeble as well as RDM but have some DD ability instead of RDM's enhancing and healing ability. Dancing has never used MP before and probably still won't; jobs without native MP-based magic have never before had base MP so dancers probably won't either. (Of course they can still combine a mage sub with +MP gear like old-school bards.) SE tried to make an enfeebler-DD once before; if this is their second attempt I'll be interested to see what they do with it.

It may or may not be able to effectively pull with dances (probably won't have any ranged weapon abilities). NIN will probably be a popular SJ initially (since it uses mainly/only 1 handed weapons and may have pulling potential), but may or may not be the best choice once players have tried some different things. Non-SATA dagger weaponskills are kind of negligible, unless they have Sword Dance or something - but subbed SATA won't help that much either.

If dances' effectiveness is CHR based, hopefully they will get access to a lot of bard's CHR gear. Gleeman's belt seems particularly nice for a CHR using job that also melees; opo-opo crown would come in handy too if the AF hat (well, flower) isn't superior.

It looks from the trailer like dances will be something with a "casting time" that takes effect when they are finished (that pose at the end of the dance that is shown several times), not FFT/FFX-2 style "while dancing" effects. This will probably mean dances will have a duration and possibly stackability.

I'll also guess that dancing is a skill of its own, which will limit the effectiveness of Dancer as a subjob - but that's just based on guesses about how SE does things in general, not on any particular evidence in the trailers or website.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Thank you for your wonderful input. I can never say the right thing, can I? I knew this would happen and it's why I told Malacite that I didn't feel like arguing. Any time someone mentions not wanting jobs, they get burned at the stake by righteous freedom-lovers.

. . .

Then I will take the stance that S-E will do their best not to fuck up their own game. They're in the business of making money. Making money means keeping a quality product. A quality product means not introducing something to said product that will ruin it for everyone.

Let me recap, before the next to posts of retorts:
1) I'll happily take 3 jobs.
2) I won't deny kinda wanting 2 just because it'd be a change of pace and well, I don't want something rushed out the door (I think PUP should have level reqs to attachments, but it's too late to make that change now that it's in the game, eh?)
3) If they made 7 new jobs, I'd honestly see how it plays out (unless any of them were Necromancer. Ugh) but frankly, I bet I'd have quit within a month. And most of the RDM population with me, it seems...
4) If they made 30 new jobs, one of which had "LOL" as an abbreviation, I'd fly to Japan to punch someone in the face.

It's absolutely ridiculous to have 15 pages of forum posts devoted to job concepts that S-E won't listen to. Yet here we are. =) I indulge in this exercise in imagination (though that stopped 2 pages back), and I also indulge myself in thinking about game balance. And realism.

Going back to our "7 new jobs introduced" concept (this is more in response to Ziero), if they were all wonderfully balanced, you bet they'd be loved. But if they decided to release a huge number of jobs like that, what are you willing to bet that they'll all work out wonderfully and that everyone will be happy? Remember, I'm hiding behind the "I'm entitled to think about game balance as if I worked at S-E" clause. I don't hate more jobs for being more jobs. I like job interchangeability as long as it's approached differently and meshes well.

But we all know that the more jobs that get added, the higher the probability of suck.

So much win, thanking you wouldn't be enough. Quoted for truth!

[Lmnop]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

First off, thank you YM.

Karinya, you may be right about Dancer and I haven't actually watched any of the trailers yet. But the more that I think about it, the more I think about what I mentioned a few pages back: the weakness of enfeebling.

There's pretty much 1 method of making an enfeeble last multiple mobs. And that would be an "aura" concept. And Dancer is one of the few job concepts that could comfortably pull that off. I'm thinking it will probably have a base casting time where it's interruptable, but after success... who knows? The idea of say... having a "dance pallet" that you continue to add effects to (sorta like doubling up affects the current buff of Phantom Roll, but additional effects instead of numbers) and simply a fast use job ability or spell that applies entire pallet to target.

I actually think Dancer will be very interesting. I'll probably like it a lot... and will still never level it.

[Wiseman40]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

it's possible that enfeebles in general will be looked at in a different light after this expansion. Support jobs in general have been buffing/healing in nature more than enfeebling. Enfeebles have gone as a secondary characteristic of DD and support thus far. Although it certainly helps, I don't think anyone chooses which job to invite based on the enfeebles they have.

There has been a need for new ways of supporting in parties in my opinion, and I believe that Dancer and possibly Time Mage are SE's solutions to this: support through the alternative (enfeebles).

I'm sure buffing is also going to be used by both Dancer and Time Mage, but what will set them apart will be enfeebles.

[Lmnop]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

I know it's insanity, but I've always thought RDMs needed better Debuffs. But nevermind, I want to focus on something else: the evolution of enfeebles.

I don't have a lot of experience with other MMOGs, but for old platform RPGs (obviously, the model on which FFXI was built), enfeebles were largely useless. In any previous FF game, the only mobs that weren't immune to the enfeebles you wanted to use on them were mobs you that would be killed via normal attacks. E.g. regular encounters. In FFXI, they wanted to make them useful and took some valiant steps to ensure it. The "6 people required to take down each and every beast of a regular pull" really helped. But with a higher paced exp environment, I fear that enfeebles are quickly beginning to look as useful as nuking in FF8.

Ahh, humorously enough, nuking's been largely useless in past games too. The more you perfect your characters, the more melee shines through. I do believe this is what FFXI is doing too. High end melee get more bang for their buck than any BLM.

Sorry for the random thoughts. I guess I just wanted to state some things to give an idea of where the game is now and things that jobs like Dancer will have to do to overcome said problems. Though if what Karinya said comes to pass - that RDM's focus is buff/debuff while dancer is dd/debuff - then it'd all be good and well unless RDM cannot keep up debuffing. Just tossing out Dia 2 every fight isn't cutting it. Oh, and I still think Carnage Elegy is overpowered. :3

Anxiously awaiting Chemist concepts, 'bbq.

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

I think dancer will be the mirror image of BRD

Fixed.

[Karinya]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

But the more that I think about it, the more I think about what I mentioned a few pages back: the weakness of enfeebling.

I think that either SE doesn't realize how big a problem this is, or they think that they will be able to fix it with other changes to the game and/or monsters in WotG or with the patch that comes at the same time as WotG release.

Maybe they're even right.

But it's quite possible (IMO) that dancer will come out and be cool and useful up to around level 60, and then once everyone moves to the Empire and the TP-burn 30-second-kill style picks up, dancers won't be wanted. To say nothing of what dancers' HNM role would be. Enfeeble the thing that's immune to enfeebling, do damage but not as well as 20 other people here, or...?

Maybe SE will manage to avoid this problem somehow, or maybe dancer's design is something quite different than I'm guessing (although the description on the WotG site certainly suggests an enfeebling focus, and it's consistent with past games).


P.S. If dances have a casting time and duration but cost 0 MP, like bard songs, I bet SE will be tempted to balance their lack of MP cost with more casting time than the average spell, like bard songs. An evasion down dance could have basically the same effect as Madrigal, so why shouldn't it take just as long to cast? The implications for a job that's trying to also DD are pretty obvious, and also what happens if fights are shorter than the designed duration of the effect (bard songs start lasting multiple fights, dances... wouldn't.)

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Is everyone forgetting what SE said a while back?

They told the guys at 1UP that when wings launches, they would -

A) Come up with new ways to EXP and

B) Adjust the difficulty of mobs.


Now, that last 1 was a little vague. Most people believe that the TP burns in Aht Urhgan are in for a nerf. Personally, I don't think that's what SE's going to do. More than likely, they're going to town down Middle Lands mobs (in the present) and possibly make EXP on mobs in the past high enough that a classic-styled PT can chain them for about the same EXP.

At least that's what I hope they're planing. SE said before that they're not going to nerf TP burns as they feel it's perfectly acceptable (Even though they saw fit to nerf BLM and RNG for doing the exact same thing -.-)