Fleshed-out Job Concepts

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

A one-handed weapon doesn't take long to attack. Before I had Triple Attack on THF I was able to get TP in around 50seconds.

-It's not my fault you cant gain TP quickly Try retweaking your gear. It is entirely possible.

Possible? Yes. Probable, as far as doing it consistently? Lets run the numbers.

Example 1: level 25 THF/NIN dual wielding dual Republic Daggers (highest DPS, lowest delay and good set of buffs, making it an ideal setup for quite a few levels). DWI reduces average delay to 151 (302 total delay). This makes TP per hit 4.7. Assuming you got 9.4 TP back from your previous WS, you'll need 20 more successful hits to break 100 TP. Assuming 95% hit rate, 10 attack rounds falls just short (you'll hit 19 out of the 20 attacks). So you'll need 11 attack rounds to break 100 TP. To get the needed 20 hits in 11 attack rounds, you only need 91% hit rate, which is doable. But any earlier than that requires 100% hit rate, which is not sustainable. 11 attack rounds for 302 total delay requires 55.4 seconds.

Example 2: level 34 THF/NIN, dual Windurstian Kukris (188 delay, very good DPS, good buffs). DWI: 169 average delay, 338 total delay. TP per hit: 4.9. 19 attacks more needed to break 100 TP, which requires 10 attack rounds at 95% hit rate. Total time: 56.3 seconds.

Example 3: level 50 THF/NIN, wielding Bone Knife +1 / Hornetneedle. DWII: 144.5 average delay, 289 total delay. TP per hit: 4.7. 20 attacks more needed to break 100 TP, which requires 11 attack rounds at 91~95% hit rate. Total time: 53.0 seconds.

Example 4: level 50 THF/NIN, wielding basically any dagger + Mercurial Kris. Not even going to touch this one. Probably going to break 50 seconds, but at a very big expense (both to your pocketbook, and to your DoT).

Example 5: some job without the benefit of DA, TA, or innate attack speed bonuses single wielding Centurion Sword (the de facto DD sword at level 30). 225 delay, 6.0 TP per hit. 16 attacks more needed to break 100 TP, which requires 17 attack rounds at ~94% hit rate. Total time: 63.8 seconds.

Example 6: same job as above, but add /NIN dual wielding Centurion Swords. 202.5 average delay, 405 total delay. 5.5 TP per hit. 17 attacks more needed to break 100 TP, which requires 9 attack rounds at ~94% hit rate. Total time: 60.8 seconds.

[Vyuru]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Meh, in response to all the drg comments by Tokitoki:

High Jump is a 3 minute timer and sheds roughly 33% of hate, while gaining TP and dealing damage.

As Omgwtfbbqkitten pointed out, Super Jump has been on a 3 minute timer for some time as well now and sheds all hate.

A drg can VERY easily do a WS + Meditate + Jump + High Jump for another WS, and probably not get large amounts of hate that is hard to rip off, notice however the difference though in the order I do things? A good dragoon will use High Jump at the end to shed the most hate possible, furthermore, while your Jump/High Jump animations are going off, Meditate is bringing in more TP giving you a better chance to self SC.

Furthermore, any arguement about drg/sam having a hate issue while having no defensive abilities is more or less null and void, I introduce you to.... Third Eye and Seigan! While alot of people complain that it's effects are random, I normally evade at least 3 hits and Third Eye goes down with about a 3-5 second wait on the recast, sometimes with no wait on the recast. Counter for added damage is far more unreliable BUT pretty damn cool when it happens, especially if the mob got off a double/triple attack and you counter them all.

And finally.....

-High Jump will not rid them of enough hate. I don't know where you got half from, but from playing with a friend of mine, he can High Jump and still ahve a substantially amount of hate. It is by no means hate-free.

1) Never said it got rid of all hate

and.....

2) Stop playing in TP burn parties where even the ninjas don't want to provoke anything and any SLIGHT hate issues a well equiped and well played dragoon may have are gone.

Quite frankly after being in more than a few TP burns I think 2 is more your friends issue. Everyone expects a ninja sub nowadays and no one is willing to tank, not even the jobs you brought in specifically FOR tanking, well, except for paladins, they still do their job

Do the NIN's debuffs do damage? No.

Actually they do, it is what makes nin/blm so appealing to some people.

Do the RDM's debuffs do damage? No.

The Bio and Dia line of spells come to mind, although I think those are the only ones to deal damage.

Do SMNs have the ability to use 3 BPs at once if they pleased? No.

They can do two kickass BP more or less at once..... Not sure why you're bringing that up.

But quite frankly Blue Mages CAN SC better than a samurai in most aspects, and they can do a self SC+MB by themselves, and when you are looking at being able to SC something like SATA+DS, and Sam kinda pale in comparison.

Oh, and:

RDM doesnt attack in PTs and doesn't have any of the better WS.

No they don't, but when they can MB on the SC who the heck cares if they melee or not?

Just for the heck of it they could two hour on the SC and get in 4-5 magic bursted nukes on ONE SC. So unless you're a melee rdm fanatic, who cares if rdm melee or not?

Also, def down from acid bolts does not stack, it's a flat up 12.5% def down unless something got changed that I didn't know about.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Also, def down from acid bolts does not stack, it's a flat up 12.5% def down unless something got changed that I didn't know about.

Yeah its a flat 12.5% Defense Down per bolt, shooting more doesn't change anything. Its why THF and RNG just use them before WS or at fight start. If the increase was cumalative, then that would be over powered. Dia, Wild Oats or choke would stack, but the bolts themselves can stack additional effects and Angon would just overwrite what acid bolts did.

[Tokitoki]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Lyon: TP floor

Other guy: He was the one that said they would not get hate. I was saying that it was not hate-free.

[Ziero]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Lyon: TP floor
Other guy: He was the one that said they would not get hate. I was saying that it was not hate-free.

TP floor does not exist anymore, thus it is entirely a moot point. Those methods also made heavy use of Dual Wield, which as noted repeatedly, gets hit with a lot of restrictions (half damage, increased delay, faster rate of resistance build up) when used in conjunction with Spellblades.

And I never said they wouldn't get hate I said they can *lose* hate. But as pointed out by BBQ, Superjump is now 3 minute recast which does lose all hate.

[Lmnop]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Most weapons naturally gain tp at around the same rate. If a 2-hander gets it in a minute, a 1-hander can too. Dual Wielding doesn't really help/hinder. These should technically be taken on a case-by-case basis since there's always something wacky at work (i.e. getting to 98 tp with a lance means you have to wait an extra 8 seconds for 100 tp, because that's just how the numbers work out), but in general all weapons gain TP at the same rate.

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

This is spellblade!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IGrkyFq6c8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anLli6LJabg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2g2m2QCj6E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vo_9sddPlo


Mystic Knight FTW ^^

[Dymlos]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Like I said in the Mystic Knight thread Ziero, I like some abilities you gave the Mystic Knight, like Barrier, but I feel that the giving the Sword Arts from Mystic Knight derives the job from what it's suppose to be.

I can see the Sword arts for a Swordmaster style job but I personally would like to keep Mystic Knight untouched from it's FFV views. Enchanting my blade to a specific element and do magical damage.

Now Ziero, do you have any idea on the MP cost/cast time for the Spellblade spells?

Dump the two-hour, it doesn't fit for what Mystic Knight is suppose to do. Malacite's version where it would gives the MKT+1 tier for MKT

Keep the Job Traits, they are fine the way they are.
Get rid of the Job Abilities except for Overcharge since Overcharge fits for the job. Since it might be MKT's only JA, decrease recast time to 3-5 minutes.

For the Spellblade list, the only buffs MKT should have is Barrier and the elemental resistances since those would work well with MKT if it plans to be an anti-magic tank. There are some Spellblades spells you forgot to add: Drain, Aspir, and Flare.

I'm not really sure if MKT should have Great Katana, they're not a far eastern style class, more like a near eastern from what I can tell by looking at their Job Armor in FFV.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Judgemaster



Judgemasters are masters of law and able to create and change law as they see fit on the battlefield. Whenever the allied forces were in dire situations, Judgemasters would help turn the tide of battle in thier favor by using enchanted cards to bend the law. These cards are not unlike the ones the lawless corsairs are known to employ.

Great Sword A+
Polearm B
Shield B
Club B+
Parrying C
Evasion D-

Magic Type - Advanced Law (Tool based, employing elemental cards)

Blunt Truth - Makes enemies weak to Blunt weapons. Cost 1 Earth, 1 Light Card
Piercing Justice - Makes enemies weak to Piercing weapons. Cost 1 Ice, 1 Dark Card
Cutting Law - Makes enemy weak to slashing weapons. Cost 1 Wind, 1 Ice card
Objection - Sends one detrimental effect cast on the Judgemaster or ally back to the enemy. Cost 2 Dark Cards
Reverse Ruling - A negative status ailment on any ally or judgemaster is changed to its opposite beneficial status. 2 Light Cards
Overrule - Returns the next attack made on Judgemaster to the enemy, be it magical or Physical. One light and one Dark card.
Turnabout - Weakens the target enemy to its own element, allies gain resistance to that element. 2 Light Cards + card of the enemy's Element.
Immunity - Allows an ally to ignore potential weather/day penalties. 2 Dark Cards.

Two Hour Ability - Death Penalty - Inflicts Doom status on the target enemy. Doom not effective on NMs. Additional effects: DEF down VIT down, Choke.

OK, the spells are semi-inspired by FFTA's Judgemaster and FFXII and I'd put most of the recasts up at 2 minutes due to power. Duration effects would be skill based - Law skill namely. In a way, this would be the yin to COR's yang. CORs play off the skills and spells of thier allies to turn the tide of battle, yet also bend the rules, giving some allies skills they wouldn't normally have. Judgemaster would change the playing field itself and reverse or null existing rules.

The weapon damage laws couldn't stack, you could only have one of the other and if the mob was already weak to a particular weapon type, the spell would not change anything for that mob. However, the application of another type would open up a new weakness for allies of a different weapon type.

Same thing for Turnabouts, the mob would only be weakened to its own element, something like Threnody or Elemental Ninjutsu could stack.

Objection is a sort of pseudo-Erase/Reflect while Overrule is a pseudo-Parry/Reflect. Reverse Ruling would turn Slow into Haste, DoTs to Regen, Blind to an Accuracy boost, etc. I guess you could say instead of a direct support class they're an indirect support/DD class. Indirect support spells I'd put at 1 minute recast.

I'll try to think of a few more spells and add them later, I didn't cover each elemental card.

[Ziero]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

Like I said in the Mystic Knight thread Ziero, I like some abilities you gave the Mystic Knight, like Barrier, but I feel that the giving the Sword Arts from Mystic Knight derives the job from what it's suppose to be.
I can see the Sword arts for a Swordmaster style job but I personally would like to keep Mystic Knight untouched from it's FFV views. Enchanting my blade to a specific element and do magical damage.
Now Ziero, do you have any idea on the MP cost/cast time for the Spellblade spells?
Dump the two-hour, it doesn't fit for what Mystic Knight is suppose to do. Malacite's version where it would gives the MKT+1 tier for MKT
Keep the Job Traits, they are fine the way they are.
Get rid of the Job Abilities except for Overcharge since Overcharge fits for the job. Since it might be MKT's only JA, decrease recast time to 3-5 minutes.
For the Spellblade list, the only buffs MKT should have is Barrier and the elemental resistances since those would work well with MKT if it plans to be an anti-magic tank. There are some Spellblades spells you forgot to add: Drain, Aspir, and Flare.
I'm not really sure if MKT should have Great Katana, they're not a far eastern style class, more like a near eastern from what I can tell by looking at their Job Armor in FFV.

As I said before, this concept came about from mixing the original Mystic Knight job with the various other Sword attacking knight jobs littered through out the FF universe, including Steiner from IX and the Holy Knight/Swordsmen from Tactics. As far as I'm concerned, Mystic Knight should be the Swordmaster class in FFXI, as it will be the only job to bring out the real offensive power of a one handed sword.

The 2 Hour is based on Steiner's and Beowolf's, both Sword using Knights, Shock ability that deals damage proportionate to ones missing HP. Currently no other player usable attack, outside of a possible Blu spell I don't know of, uses missing HP in calculating it's dmg. It's unique and useful at all lvls and can be used as a straight up offensive attack or a last ditch effort to win a fight. Simply raising a spell's affect a tier seems a bit too simple and weak to me.

The buffs are based on the 'Holy Knight' background used to inspire the class's abilities, as such all their spells are technically White Magics. I felt having a few simple damage mitigating buffs would break up the monotoney of their spell list while assisiting them in any short lived tanking roles they would take on.

As for MP costs and casting times, I can honestly say I don't know. Numerical balances have never really been my thing as I suck at math horribly. But I see the casting time of a spell irrevelant as the effects will have a timed duration and the MP costs wouldn't be substantially high as they would have a naturally small MP pool to begin with.

And I didn't forget Drain, Aspir or Flare. Feeling that the job would need changes to work within the realm of an MMO game, some things needed changes. Drain and Aspir abilities were each regulated to Sword Techniques as opposed to Spellblades. As techniques, Drain and Aspir could be noticibly effective as they're both one hit each attacks. If they were like other Spellblades, they would have to do reduced damage to not be overpowered. And Flare, along with the other Ancient Magics, were treated like Tier IV spells in that they were kept Blm specific.

And Gkatana are more of a 'eh why not' thing and far from a defining ability. Much like Sams and Plds can equip polearms a MSK *could* equip a Gkatana as to me it is a type of sword.

And Overcharge is basically Turbo MP, a Blm/Time Mage trait usually, that has been modified to affect a MSK's attacks.

[nanatsu]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

And Gkatana are more of a 'eh why not' thing and far from a defining ability. Much like Sams and Plds can equip polearms a MSK *could* equip a Gkatana as to me it is a type of sword.

Eh I know this isn't on topic but I couldn't just let this go >_> Polearms were a common weapon for Samurai so it fits in perfectly with the job. So it's not really an 'eh why not' thing. Sorry, I'm anal about samurai/ninja history ><

/end derail

Besides that, I think it's perfectly acceptable for a MSK to use a great katana, especially since SAM can use one-hand swords in the game. I'm saying this despite the fact that I hate MSK. :p But unless you wanna take away club and sword from Sam, I see no reason why MSK couldn't have g.katana.

[Malacite]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

@. @ yet more derailment, but on that note Samurai were also some of (if not the) best archers the world's ever seen. And yet they only get a C+ rank in it.

How about B+ SE? SAM can't even use any ranged WS past Sidewinder (Arching Arrow isn't showing up in my menu, nor is blasting arrow)

[Ziero]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

@. @ yet more derailment, but on that note Samurai were also some of (if not the) best archers the world's ever seen. And yet they only get a C+ rank in it.
How about B+ SE? SAM can't even use any ranged WS past Sidewinder (Arching Arrow isn't showing up in my menu, nor is blasting arrow)

English Longbowmen were far more potent archers from my understanding, reigning down an unfathomable ire of hatred and disgust from other soldiers because of their sheer lethality on the battle field. Where knights and soldiers who were captured in battle were often held for randsom and returned unharmed out of honor and respect, archers were slain and tortured en-mass. In fact I believe that the 'middle finger' came about as an insult because captured archers would often have their fingers hacked off to prevent them from ever entering combat again. As such, archers with their fingers would proudly display that their fingers were still intact in battle to insult and enrage their enemies.

And I know Polearms of sorts were common for Samurai, just as they were for medevil knights. With their long range, Polearm type weapons were good for offensive combat in a relatively safe manner. They were also simpler to make as opposed to swords. But in this game, real life history plays little to no part in a jobs functions or abilities outside of a few simple nods here and there. As such, I felt the addition of Gkatana MSK, a 'swordmaster' style job, to be another one of those simple nods. In effect confirming that a Katana, as used by Sams in this game, *is* a variety of sword.

[Sevv]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

ya up ranged damage to make sam/rng deadlier lol >.<;

[Vyuru]

Re: Fleshed-out Job Concepts

In fact I believe that the 'middle finger' came about as an insult because captured archers would often have their fingers hacked off to prevent them from ever entering combat again. As such, archers with their fingers would proudly display that their fingers were still intact in battle to insult and enrage their enemies.

Actually....

From my understanding the middle finger gesture was modified from the 2-3 finger gesture used in England. Supposedly there was a battle where a group of French longbowmen fought English longbowmen, England won and to be sure that they never fought French longbows again, they cut off the middle 3 fingers on the right hand of all the French longbowmen.

So yeah, like you say it's a common insult in England to my understanding to be waving the fingers you'd need to draw a bow at someone.

At least that is what was told to one of my Dad's coworkers when he went to see a soccer match in England that was English vs French teams. All the English were making that gesture so he asked what it was.

I could be wrong though, let's ask Kirsteena