Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Its funny, I've always been able to plan and organize things so easily in terms to career paths on Omgwtfbbqkitten. Yet, my first character, Foobar, I still struggle with because I've typically ended up played him to sterotypical Tarutaru roles to higher levels to help friends out rather than persue the soloist/EXP path I wanted with him.

Now that Kitten is nearing thehighest levels, I can participate in endgame with that character, I'm considering taking Foobar's BRD back out of the picture. Can't say I ever had endgame aspirations for that particular job, but I did take it seriously and played a good one. COR has ended up being the support role I wanted in the first place, it just wasn't in the game at the time I wanted it.

What I do know I want on Foobar is DRG and BST for sure, I'm just debating the third one. I do have a 65 RDM, but I personally don't find hiding behind a lot of damage-null spell to be terribly thrilling, which is exactly what RDM does. Plus RDM in EXP flips my narcolepesy switch

Two jobs pique my interest for Foobar, but with the other 5 jobs I have across the two characters, I think i'd only want to do one to phase out BRD and RDM.

The underdog, DRG and pet lover in general in me leans to Puppetmaster. It seems like a job that still has a lot of unexplored potential as well as as in need of its share of adjustments over time. Since lots of mage gear comes into play, I have all the mage subs I need to support it in addition to Warrior for melee potential.

But another part of me wants Foobar to a job that opposes Kitten's, I've always semi-roleplayed both characters and they tend to be out to thwart each other or step on each other's toes. Kitten is COR, so Foobar playing BLU would be thematically consistant not only with that, but the ToA storyline.

BLU plays into the rules of BST, is a capable soloist in its own right and I kinda like the comraderie the job has right now. BLUs join up and go out to get spells together on the harder mobs. It also seems to have excellent subjob potential for DRG wheras for BST its somewhat lacking. BLU would require some more subjob work, such as /NIN and THF, but BST needs /NIN and DRG needs /THF, so that's not objectionable.

In the end, they both can solo and I think I'd have fun with 'em, its just kinda hard to pick one. Boths seem to have a long, daunting road ahead of them in terms of EXP and invites. I don't mind that, actually, between BST, BRD and DRG I've seen how hard and easy it gets.

Either way, I can merit toward any of them now with BRD on the miscellanious stats and I intend to do just that. Max out the MP, critical hit rates, STR and whatever else I need.

[tdh]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

For anybody who has enjoyed RNG, and has kept a lot of their gear, COR would be a fitting job for them. Allows them to be truly a support job. Supporting DD with their added damage, as well as Enfeebles or party buffs. COR appeals to me slightly, just I already have other expensive jobs so this one isn't in the cards for me now. (No pun intended.)

BLU seems like an awesome job which I think will get beat with the nerf stick here eventually. I've seen some low level BLUs really destroy mobs, tanking quite well in the Dunes, and then dealing pretty impressive damage in the later levels. A Taru BLU with all that MP, STR, Sword and Crit Merits would truly RAWK!

PUP was an interesting solo jobs for me, but I can't imagine taking it much further than the Lv.17 I'm currently stuck on. My hat is off to any PUP75 though. Having stuck it out when I just can't see a reason to seek out a PUP to invite them. I agree that PUP needs a lot of help. C rated H2H, no WS Quest available to them, poor skillchain options. Soloing to Lv.15 wasn't too bad, but past that I started having problems. Lots of deaths or just really slow kills with my Automaton dieing all over the place.

I like your idea of the characters being Yin and Yang, and that tips the scale more towards BLU.

Well the information you've mentioned, and the impressions I've gathered, BLU sounds like it's the better bet. Perhaps once PUP gets their much needed adjustment, you can go try it then.

[Jei]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

So BST is a dark evil job I see o.O;;

I like BLU much more than PUP personally. So I vote BLU for no other reason than that ^^

BLU AF

[Icemage]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

PUP is probably the most difficult job to level in the history of FFXI. Can't really solo. Can't really tank. Can't really DD. Can't really heal.

If you're going to go with PUP, you might want to see what the next version update does to fix the job first; right now, it's an extremely painful job to level.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

The leader of my Linkshell might disagree with you about PUPs ability to solo. Then again he has 75 levels of BST experience under his belt, so he knows what he's doing. Since he rarely gets invites, he solos a lot, and it seems to work out ok for him. Heck, he's gotten more exp than I have lately. :/

[Sabaron]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

...[PUP] Can't really DD...
Icemage

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. My Class II automaton and myself do excellent damage. Keep in mind that I spent about 1.25mil (pre and post-deflation) gil on this puppet. He has all of the non-ranged related puppet parts up to Tier II... This does not include parts that are received through Pulling the Strings or from Assault Chests as those are still running above 500k (Reactive Shield) each to multi-million (Optical Fiber).

PUP I would say is an expensive (static gear) class to play effectively. It is not for anyone who doesn't have a nice bank roll. If you don't put money into it, you won't get much out of it. This is my primary feeling as to why you run into so many "bad" puppetmasters--it's not that they necessarily suck at playing PUP, but they don't have the cash or high-levelled alternate job firepower to get the big guns for the puppet.

PUPs biggest advantage over the traditional DD is that it mitigates hate very well--better than any other DD except THF (and he does more damage than a THF). When a traditional melee DD goes ballistic, they take hate and in some cases, can die. A PUP does not since the hate is divided between himself and the puppet. PUP is easier on PLDs and especially NIN tanks--allowing the tank to maintain a lower hate level instead of worrying about which DD (e.g. BLM) is going to pull the mob off him first and need an emergency Cover/Sentinel/Rampart/Provoke/etc. The puppet can also be configured to deal with different types of enemies--using Stormwalker against magically vulnerable enemies (mandies), ValorEdge/Sharpshot vs. physically vulnerable (Valor is slash, Sharpshot is pierce). Normal DD's are always locked into one or the other.

PUP's magely armor makes him a poor tank against IT mobs. Similarly, the puppet cannot deal with IT's well. The PUP's tanking ability is most evident during soloing... A PUP can bounce hate between himself and the puppet--dividing the damage. PUP has ample hit points and the automaton, configured with full Regen, has a sizeable load as well. I'm not sure about high-level soloing but I've heard that PUPs do solo at high level.

I've parsed PUPs from 10-20, 25-30, 35-40, 50-53, and have not had any serious beef with their damage output--it is either on par with or above most other DD's. I haven't seen a PUP compared to "new Ranger", however...

[Icemage]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

Re: Taskmage
Despite the fact that BST have taken a serious beating in the solo game due to the changes to Leave, they still vastly outclass Puppetmasters in the solo category. Charmed pets are noticeably stronger than Automatons, and BST have jugs and other skills like Tame to rely on in an emergency. This doesn't mean you can't solo as a PUP - you certainly can. But you're not as effective as a BST (weaker pet, weaker weapon skills, fewer crisis tools), and even BST only earn "ok" XP when solo.

Re: Sabaron
PUPs are mostly OK for the first 40 levels where their C rank Hand-to-Hand skills don't hamper them too much if you have gear to make up for some of their shortcomings (especially as the automaton makes up the lion's share of their damage anyway). Unfortunately, as you creep up past there, it becomes increasingly harder to keep up with dedicated melees that have an A-rank weapon skill. From 55-60, the gap really widens as other melees get access to what for most DD jobs will be their best weaponskills, while your melee accuracy as a PUP starts dipping way into the floor.

If you really want to see the difference, parse a DRG vs. PUP at 60+. The DRG's wyvern is directly analogous to the Automaton. The Wyvern will outperform the automaton, and the DRG will vastly outperform the PUP in damage due to the disparity in weapon skill levels.

My friends that are 70+ PUP now all tell me they still have difficulty even hitting Tough enemies in merit parties - they have to load up on Accuracy gear and sushi just to get within shouting distance of 80% accuracy, whereas all melees with an A rank weapon skill can get by with virtually no accuracy boost to be above 90%. Not to mention their lackluster damage due to relatively low attack scores. True, the automaton makes up for some of it, since it is less affected by level differences, but it still struggles - and most of the high level PUPs I've spoken to tell me that they often find themselves outdamaged 2:1 or more by their automaton, which is enough to make any melee cry.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

Re: Taskmage
Despite the fact that BST have taken a serious beating in the solo game due to the changes to Leave, they still vastly outclass Puppetmasters in the solo category. Charmed pets are noticeably stronger than Automatons, and BST have jugs and other skills like Tame to rely on in an emergency. This doesn't mean you can't solo as a PUP - you certainly can. But you're not as effective as a BST (weaker pet, weaker weapon skills, fewer crisis tools), and even BST only earn "ok" XP when solo.

Oro?

[Sabaron]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

So I suppose we're to the point where PUP's mid-game is getting a bit brighter thanks to the new attachments--The lower-level parses I've done show that the Puppetmaster does most of the damage. The 50-53 parse favors the automaton--so that shows where the slide probably begins. I have no experience with end-game characters, but I'm working on RDM60 this next week so I can do Assaults (hopefully not just the abysmally simple Excavation Duty that seems to be so popular), but....

I've done BLU and PUP and I will say that BLU is very cool, very powerful, and very sub-friendly. PUP is a nice low-level sub, but I really haven't found it to be super cool and I keep thinking "Why don't you just level MNK instead?" I'm not exactly sure where SE wants to go with PUP but they seem to want it to be DD... It's support is marginal at best with a minimum 25 second spell timer and it can only cast cures... It's not smart enough to nuke properly, and even though you can do a lot with the debuffs... It just doesn't cast spells correctly. I'm going to test out the ranged puppet at 20th to see if he gives a bit more punch. It looks like (by looking at AF) that the automaton is supposed to be the "star of the show" at least at high level. I'm sure that SE has more in store for PUP--they've begun to dip in to higher level stuff and I would like to see a bit more PUP gear and attachments... They seem to be working slowly which is understandable since they may be afraid of ousting the MNK as the H2H guru. There's a lot of overlap. PUP has odd skills--Evasion and Guard are their top skills--this also indicates an emphasis on the automaton. We'll see...

BLU is quite fun. I like soloing spells 5-8 levels ahead of when I'll need them because I can go out and try to solo tough monsters. Killing Forest Tigers in Jugner, Coeurls and Cockatrices in Meriphataud were exciting, but I haven't quite figured out if there's anything I can do with Hecteyes yet...

The only thing about BLU that I've been having trouble with are Magic Bursts so far... The only way I can burst is to use an AoE attack, so camp position determines whether or not I can actually -use- my abilities. BLU has a lot of AoE... I don't see a lot of BLU storing TP even though it helps their spells--they just do too good of damage with sword--they throw at 100% just like everyone else. The spells are not stellar damagewise--they can't touch a BLM, but the status effects and critical physicals are very nice and cheap. I think BLU gets the "most bang for his buck" while the BLM just gets the "most bang"...

[Icemage]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

So I suppose we're to the point where PUP's mid-game is getting a bit brighter thanks to the new attachments--The lower-level parses I've done show that the Puppetmaster does most of the damage. The 50-53 parse favors the automaton--so that shows where the slide probably begins. I have no experience with end-game characters, but I'm working on RDM60 this next week so I can do Assaults (hopefully not just the abysmally simple Excavation Duty that seems to be so popular), but....

Trend you're seeing in your 50-53 PUP parse where the Automaton makes up more and more damage just continues to get worse; remember, after 61+, the skill progression greatly favors A rank skills even more than at previous levels. The new attachments plus extra slots in the last update reportedly help the automaton quite a bit, but again it just delays the inevitable.

PUP is a nice low-level sub, but I really haven't found it to be super cool and I keep thinking "Why don't you just level MNK instead?"

Exactly my point. Right now, there's just no compelling reasons to play PUP, nor any reasons to explicitly invite one to a party.

I'm not exactly sure where SE wants to go with PUP but they seem to want it to be <stuff>

I'm not really sure Square-Enix even knows where they want to take PUP. It's a mediocre DD melee job with a mediocre, semi-controllable pet. I disagree that Square-Enix thinks it is a DD, however; look at the selection of armors and the meager selection of end-game gear and you'll see it's all mage-like stuff (want proof? Puppetmasters get access to Hope Staff... which is absurd since they have no inherent staff skill).

<stuff about BLU>... I think BLU gets the "most bang for his buck" while the BLM just gets the "most bang"...

This is about as accurate a description of the Blue Mage job as you can get. Unlike BLU, though, BLMs don't need as much MP efficiency - they get to rest more than any other mage in the game, and they get Conserve MP to help them.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

Think I'm gonna go with BLU. RNG, COR and BST bring me enough expenses as is is and the last thing I need is more expense. Plus PUP doesn't add much as a subjob to DRG or BST, while BLU can to various extents (moreso for DRG).

/THF, /SAM and /NIN I was planning to level for BST and DRG anyway, /BLU fits right in with them. DRG/BLU has fastest HB trigger at present and jobs traits to regain from the loss of /WHM. BLU/THF and BLU/NIN are by far the most common subs and if a PT does need the extra healing, I have /WHM to fall back onm, /RDM if faster casting is needed.

[eva00r]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

PUP pwnz in Salvage, period.

[Sabaron]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

It is possible that SE may have intended this to be so, wrt PUP and DRG in Salvage. That not withstanding, it may also have been an oversight, to wit allowing PUP and DRG to start with a pet, which will be corrected in a forthcoming update. Even so, after JA is removed, the 'maton becomes quite powerful as it is immune to Pathos. The gears and wheels of Al Zadaal seem to scream "PUP was made for this zone."

That aside your post is both extraordinarily light on actual useful information (of any kind), could be classified as a crosspost from a Salvage thread, and is also a 1-month necropost...

[Pup~king]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

Blah, I'm a level 56 pup/whm and i have no trouble coming close to matching a monks dmg output. Pup has potential to suck horribly. but if you have the gil to sink into it... it can be awesome. There is alot of unfair discrimination against pups. Until people have tried the job, they shouldn't automatically discard it as "weak". I vote Pup over blu because... pup is more fun and you dont have to spend all the time gathering spells... granted though Blu is an ungodly DD..

[Karinya]

Re: Trying to decide between BLU or PUP

Re: Taskmage
Despite the fact that BST have taken a serious beating in the solo game due to the changes to Leave, they still vastly outclass Puppetmasters in the solo category. Charmed pets are noticeably stronger than Automatons, and BST have jugs and other skills like Tame to rely on in an emergency. This doesn't mean you can't solo as a PUP - you certainly can. But you're not as effective as a BST (weaker pet, weaker weapon skills, fewer crisis tools), and even BST only earn "ok" XP when solo.

Hmm. I haven't leveled BST much, but as I understand it the 3 leading causes of BST death are:

1. Bad pull/bad camp causing links/adds. (This can happen to any soloer - bst, pup, drg/mage, whatever - but is rare if you know what you're doing.)
2. Charm breaks at the wrong time/fails too much.
3. Can't find a suitable pet for the next stage of the fight against the VT-IT mob that's currently on your tail.

2 out of the 3 can't happen to PUP. Charmed pets are stronger, but they are also less reliable and their unreliability is a leading (perhaps THE leading) danger to a soloing BST. Fewer crisis tools are balanced by fewer crises.

And on top of that, PUP doesn't take an exp reduction for having their pet out; they don't need Leave and they don't need to save TP for the final shot. And not needing to charm anything means more choices of camp locations where BST can't go because they can't find monsters at an appropriate level to charm.

BLU is quite fun. I like soloing spells 5-8 levels ahead of when I'll need them because I can go out and try to solo tough monsters. Killing Forest Tigers in Jugner, Coeurls and Cockatrices in Meriphataud were exciting, but I haven't quite figured out if there's anything I can do with Hecteyes yet...

I know this is a bit off topic, but I'd suggest Ranguemont Pass. I got the Hecteyes and Slime spells there. J-8 or J-10 IIRC.

As a general suggestion, you might want to look at Vana'diel Monsters's blue magic page. Although it's in Japanese, you can usually guess which spell is which and they have links to search by monster family, which helps locate monsters to learn each spell from. (However, in some cases, not all monsters of the family have the blue magic skill.)