SE and their beloved Ninjas

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Yes, exactly my point. I think a nin tank DONE RIGHT, is beyond most people. Let's face it, most people are lazy. Paying attention to this game is beyond many people. I think 85% of my pt's had at least one person reading/eating/watching tv/playing another game/etc. and not paying attention. I always pray its not a job that is crucial to the pts survival. I just don't think that people apply themselves as well as they could most of the time and their job suffers for it. When its a nin, things can go horribly wrong fast. With a pld, it can go bad but just not as quickly as with a nin. Ever pt with a half assed pld? The pt is bad but usually no horrible after effects. A half assed nin? That means a dead tank usually and that doesn't bode well for the rest of the pt. In a way, its a compliment to the good nins. Their job is harder and if they do it well then they have something to crow about. The problem is finding a good one. I've not been very lucky in that department for most of my FFXI life.

As far as pre-ni, yes I know its difficult and you do take more hits usually but I'm not talking about a good nin. Knowing how to time your casting is important and I've watched so many of them either not pay attention or just not give a hoot. You can tell the ones that actually try from the ones that do not.

[csBahamut]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I can say that I think it's the "I want the most exp/hr for the least amount of effort" that makes NIN wanted more for exp/merits. For HNMs, I think it's because they hear about how so-and-so awsome NIN never got hit by such-and-such uber HNM. For smaller NMs, it's easy to tank them with a small group if you have a NIN. PLD and NIN are the closest in performance in the HNM scene, in my opinion. Everyone should already know how effective NINs are on NMs or soloing. The exp/merits is where there's a major inbalance.

I started FFXI back when it was released in North America. I started PLD as soon as I hit level 30 with a job to get it. Back then, PLD was pretty much /the/ tank. WAR/MNKs were slowly fading out, and NINs were just learning to hold hate. I leveled most of my PLD levels pre-sushi. Back then, anyone who could get 5K/hr was godly, and that's just what my static could do (with a PLD! OMG!). Getting 4k/hr was comp[letely acceptable. Sushi came out when I was in the mid 60's. At the same time, NINs started to become the accepted alternate tank to PLD. In fact, some people prefered them because they could hunt monsters MUCH higher in level and get those monsters that gave over 200 base exp. That was also the time when arrowburns became popular and the hype of getting past 5K/hr took off. Since then, I've hit 75 and have experienced endgame merits in all kinds of places except KRT. I've done Ulegarand Range, Lufaise Meadows, Statues, and Deco Weapons. I've been the tank in all those places, and I've been with a NIN tank in sky with me as a PLD/NIN with crappy DD gear. I've also been leveling WHM with my friend's NIN up to the 60's (we've been having trouble finding people when we can exp lately). So I'll show you guys some number for comparison:

Level 50's:
PLD tank Pre-Sushi: 4.5-5.5K/hr in Kuftal Tunnel on Crabs.

NIN tank in Garlaige Citadel basement: 6-7K/hr with a TP-burn setup.

PLD-tank in Lufaise Meadows: 4-5K/hr. We might be able to push 6K/hr, but we usually have one or two deaths during the session. That slows down the exp/hr.

PLD-tank in Ulegarand Range: 4-5K/hr. Demons and birds just hit too hard to use anything but a defensive setup.

PLD-tank on Aura Statues: 4-5K/hr, though good luck finding it open now. And don't forget about the LSes that come camp Ullikimi and ruin your exp.

PLD-tank on Deco Weapons: 5-7K/hr. This was the best I could ever do tanking. I could get away with using sushi. But even trying our hardest (the whole party), it still took everything we had to be perfect to make 7K/hr. After we hit 7K for the first hour, we slowed down to a normal effort level for a NIN TP-burn party and went down to 5-6K/hr. Compare this to:

NIN-tank TP-burn party: 8-10K/hr. This was with me going PLD/NIN BEFORE I got my DD gear for PLD/NIN. I was the gimp in the party. Trying our hardest, we were nearing 10K/hr, but only if we killed at just the right rate, with just the right pulls.

Of course, that's not counting the 8-12K/hr parties I hear about with MNK-burns in KRT, or the NIN and WAR TP-burns in Ulegarand range.

Those are number directly from experience, and I am no slacker of a PLD tank. Just ask people about how good I am on my server. If those numbers don't prove to people that PLD vs NIN is unbalanced, then people are just ignoring the problem. And for those of you who say, "Well, if you want to get good exp per hr, why don't you just level a job that can?" That's not the point. The point is that ANY job can be welcome in a party that can get the best exp. Why would the jobs even be IN the game if they weren't balanced? It would be a waste of time and money to even code them into the game. I could care less about being the most wanted person on the server. I'd rather be an unknown to most people. I could care less about being Mr. Uber either. What I do care about is job balance.

[Icemage]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

csBahamut brings up an interesting point in that, when things go right, NIN tank parties (particularly for merit points) use very close to zero resources (HP and MP) to kill enemies. PLD tank parties, no matter how good, always use some, though if you play well and have good gear you can minimize the usage.

One solution to this would be to make Utsusemi less reliable, but it's really not as simple as that. As noted previously in this thread, NIN tanks prior to level 37 (Utsusemi: Ni) are pretty weak, while they're nearly invincible at end-game when played correctly with the right support.

So what's the solution? I have no idea. Maybe increase the number of shadows that Utsusemi: Ichi and Ni both give, but make them not always trigger, based on how many shadows you have left? (i.e. 5 shadows = you only get hit 1/6 of the time, the other 5/6 a shadow gets hit instead, leaving you with 4...?)

Food for thought.


Icemage

[Jei]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I agree guaranteed dodge is the strongest point of utsusemi. Look at mages, our blink only triggers around 50-60%. Makes stoneskin very important to have underneath.
But the system has been estabished for too long... lower the dodge chance of utsusemi now will only make tanking with NIN a hassle.

[csBahamut]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Yeah, SE has let Utsusemi stay too strong for too long. Total damage avoidance plus damage output is just overpowered. Where's the typical RPG balance between offense and defense?

With the popularity of NIN now, any nerf to Utsusemi would upset more people than the RNG adjustment. The Uberlings flock to whatever job is overpowered for something, and a lot of those things now involve Utsusemi.

I'd still like to see a nerf to Utsusemi, but I would still like to see a NIN be able to tank. I like the idea of an evasion tank. Currently, NIN is more of a blink tank than an evasion tank. That way, PLD would be a defensive tank, NIN would be an evasion tank, and WAR would be the offensive tank. I would want parry, evade, and shield to activate more often. Then I'd have NIN damage output nerfed, but they'd gain some hate tools. Either some JAs, more hate from ninjitsu, or a combination of both. Then, I'd change Utsusemi to be like how I've seen some people suggest. Having 4 shadows out would be like a 20% chance of getting hit. As shadows got hit, the chance of a shadow being targeted would be less and less. That coupled with better evasion effectiveness would make NIN a pure evasion tank. Though, how many shadows they'd get from Utsusemi might need to be adjusted. SAN might need to be added to, but maybe as a 1 min recast that acts like Utsusemi does now, but with only 1-2 shadows.

[qaitakalnin]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I do want to see the pld tanks get a boost, but the idea of the evasion tank or that the shadows wouldn't always stop a hit has 1 flaw, nin's dont have that high a def. They can (and do) wear chain stuff but like normal hits would kill them...wouldnt it? Not only that (since i really love to pull things) wouldnt that hurt the pullers...like expecially the rng pullers who have crap for evasion and paper armor?

[Tsikuro]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

If you gave NINs 'evasion-powered' Utsusemi, you would completely and utterfly nerf the job.
It would become absolutely useless. -_-;

[Armando]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

If you gave NINs 'evasion-powered' Utsusemi, you would completely and utterfly nerf the job.
It would become absolutely useless. -_-;

Because NINs don't do good damage and don't have useful debuffs? No offense...I'm not saying S-E should kill NIN tanking, but really now...to say NIN would become useless if it can't tank is ridiculous. I would personally love to see NINs DD'ing.

[Tsikuro]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Because NINs don't do good damage and don't have useful debuffs? No offense...I'm not saying S-E should kill NIN tanking, but really now...to say NIN would become useless if it can't tank is ridiculous. I would personally love to see NINs DD'ing.

Oh, ok.
I guess that's because you're main PLD.
People should actually play NIN to 75 before commenting on it.
If NIN was just DD, then you'd be down to one tank job again, and many fights would become near-impossible.

[Armando]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Oh, ok.
I guess that's because you're main PLD.
People should actually play NIN to 75 before commenting on it.
If NIN was just DD, then you'd be down to one tank job again, and many fights would become near-impossible.

And now you're arguing a completely different point. Your original argument was that NIN would become useless. My counterargument is that it could still be useful as a DD. Yes, having just one tank would be an enormous problem, but that wasn't what was being discussed.

And, I suppose the majority of the forum members should simply stop posting because they haven't levelled X job to 75, and therefore can't comment on it? There's a very big difference between "you haven't played NIN enough yet...what you claim isn't true" and "Level NIN to 75 or stfu."

[DigitalisAkujin]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Maybe it's because I don't feel a job should be defined by how much gil you have to put into it, or maybe I have a slight inclination to enjoy jobs that with a sword and shield combination? Either way, that question had no place in this thread.

But of course, it isn't the Paladin's usual place to complain. It's everyday we eat punches, kicks, bombs, poisonous oats, stink eyes, and a myriad of other deadly abilities while taking the occasional death for the team without a single complaint. What happens when a Ninja or Black Mage are faced with the same problems? They complain and place the blame elsewhere.

Do you realize it's a game? You're not ACTUALLY getting "punches, kicks, bombs, poisonous oats, stink eyes". Indead NINs take bombs too if you wanna use that analogy.

From the stand point of a NIN do you realize that it takes a lot more concentration to Voke, WS, Do Enfeebles, Keep Shadows Up, and hold hate then to stand there and take dmg while doing Flash and Voke for hate and occasionally doing a Cure or a weapon skill?

No that thought got completely lost because NIN is too strong it seems. Go ask a NIN to Vrtra, see what happens. Ask a NIN to to tank 5-1, CoP 3 Mithra, Mammats, etc.

As for blaming it on someone else? I never wanna see you ever ask for refresh or cure EVER. :-D

I also see you mentioning that BLMs blame someone else? I have a question for you: Can you hold hate from a magic burst?

Say what you will but as both a NIN and a BLM that RESPECTS the job of PLDs I'm gonna say you're a little bit whacko for even posting this thread.


What you do have to realize is that the Palidan is the Quarterback for the Linkshell and the Ninja is the reciever. Just because we make the TDs doesn't mean that the QB don't get the attention s/he deserves.

I don't see any NINs getting first dibs on Shadow Mantle............

Although I will say that it's a bit unfair that your best body piece is camped daily by 921849081941818 people in Dragon's Aery while 2-3 of mine are bought or obtained from LS event like Kirin.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

My counterargument is that it could still be useful as a DD.

Yes, because there aren't enough issues with DD's seeking for hours and days for exp party invites. It's far more preferable to you that paladins have zero competition for the tanking role while ninjas compete for the DD slot against samurais, dark knights, warriors, thiefs, rangers, monks, dragoons, and also suitably equipped beastmasters.

[Taskmage]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Yes, because there aren't enough issues with DD's seeking for hours and days for exp party invites. It's far more preferable to you that paladins have zero competition for the tanking role while ninjas compete for the DD slot against samurais, dark knights, warriors, thiefs, rangers, monks, dragoons, and also suitably equipped beastmasters.

The arguement was simply that ninja wouldn't be useless if they couldn't blink tank. The post you're replying to already acknowledges that shifting the job spectrum in that way would be bad.

[Icemage]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Who said anything about Ninjas not being able to blink-tank without a perfect Utsusemi?

The order of defensive checks in FFXI is:

Blink/Utsusemi
Evasion
Parry
Counter
Shield

Ninjas get 3 of these checks (Utsusemi, Evasion, Parry), all of which negate damage completely. Increase the power of Evasion and Parry, reduce the effectiveness of Utsusemi. Leaves you with a viable Evasion tank who still gets hit once in a while (hint: except in extreme cases, this happens anyway), demands less perfection from players, and consumes more resources from a party.

If you bump the number of shadows given by Utsusemi up by at least 1 per cast - in fact, I could maybe see even increasing it to +2, this actually helps low level ninjas (who currently need a lot of help to function prior to acquiring Utsusemi: Ni at level 37), since they'll actually stop more hits with Utsusemi: Ichi. It also gives SE the ability to grant Utsusemi: San to players as well, and at a level above 37 - doing so now would completely unbalance ninjas the way Utsusemi currently works.

Is it a radical departure? Maybe.

Is it too much of a change? Don't know, but something probably needs to be done eventually to address the issue, and this seems like a reasonable compromise.

Will it ever happen? Well, SE has shown that they're not afraid to take steps to address imbalances (RNG, TP-nerf), so I don't see the "it's always been that way, they'll never change it now" argument holding much water.


Icemage

[Lmnop]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Apples

Do you realize it's a game? You're not ACTUALLY getting "punches, kicks, bombs, poisonous oats, stink eyes". Indead NINs take bombs too if you wanna use that analogy.

No, Pallies take every WS, while Nins only take some. I don't see your point.

From the stand point of a NIN do you realize that it takes a lot more concentration to Voke, WS, Do Enfeebles, Keep Shadows Up, and hold hate then to stand there and take dmg while doing Flash and Voke for hate and occasionally doing a Cure or a weapon skill?

Then make PLD more difficult. An argument like this doesn't address the problem. The fact that nins are more difficult to play is why it's so easy for the rest of the party. They do the whole party's worth of effort for themselves.

No that thought got completely lost because NIN is too strong it seems. Go ask a NIN to Vrtra, see what happens. Ask a NIN to to tank 5-1, CoP 3 Mithra, Mammats, etc.

Tanking specific mobs goes down to what I was saying earlier: there are very very very few mobs in the game that are paladin only and I've seen or read of occasions of nins or war/nins tanking almost every single one of them now. Also, I had a nin tank for 5-1 who was using katanas that were over level 50 and his unarmed skill was so piddly low that he borrowed a sword from the rdm and barely did a thing. His main roll was to be a warm body to take hits and blink every once in a while (not like those bones have great acc. Even w/out shadows most of the time, he wasn't an MP sponge).


Oranges.

I guess that's because you're main PLD.
People should actually play NIN to 75 before commenting on it.

It's far more preferable to you that paladins have zero competition for the tanking role while ninjas compete for the DD slot...

Ad Hominem.

Believe it or not, some people care about how the game works, and they care about balance. The fact that he chose PLD as his main has no bearing on the way he sees the rest of the game. Stop into the SAM forums and see his SC chart -- something that doesn't matter at all to PLDs. While you guys get one job to level 75 and then rush off to get the next job to 75, he studies the jobs and enjoys it. It's 2 methods of attaining satisfaction with the game. Honestly, I trust his view on a 75 ninja more than I do the view of a 75 ninja (I know a lot of very stupid level 75 ninjas).