SE and their beloved Ninjas

[Tirrock]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I think this obsession with performance has shifted the focus of playing the game as a team-unit and transfered it into Elitist mentalities.

Quoted for emphesis.

And for totally off topic MGS3 avatars.

[Lmnop]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

fact is, no one wants to get bad exp. It's not fair to say "We could invite a nin and get 12k exp/hour or we could invite a pld and get 6k." It's not about elitism, it's common sense. Get Exp Faster = Faster Exp/merits = do other funner stuff.

If all jobs were capable of the same level of contribution to a party, there wouldn't be such an elitist attitude. Before RNG nerf, I remember seeing a ninja whose seek comment was "RNG party only." <--- that is elitism, and that is why RNG got nerfed. That was an example of one job being able to get exp hands down better than other jobs.

Let's see here: 1) Ninja are better exp tanks because they have 0 downtime, and require very little support. This means a mage can watch TV.
2) Ninja are usually better HNM tanks because they can tank everything easier. People ALWAYS wanna bring up that point about how some things are just better with PLDs. Oddly enough, there aren't many of these monsters. Most of the time, Faust is cited. However, I know many many ninjas and war/nins who've tanked faust. Some LSs only use a nin on him because that's their main tank. So gee, I guess that advantage is lost. It seems there are a lot of mobs in the game that PLD suck at but can tank if the group puts their mind to it, but there's only a handful of mobs in the game that nin suck at but can tank if they put their mind to it.
3) how many NM threads have you seen where they say "X, Y, and Z jobs can trio this?" X pretty much always = ninja. If you're going for taking down a mob with minimum amount of people, you're looking at a ninja tank. Y is usually a BRD, Z is usually RDM or WHM. Granted, PLD with Spirit Taker can do some impressive solo, but it'll never hit that level of NM survivability. They'll never take down Ash Dragon with 4 people using a PLD tank.

As for Ninja, I do think it's overpowered, but I also think it's rediculously fun. And fact is, if it were nerfed, it wouldn't be fun, and we're playing this game for fun. It's awesome to have so much at your disposal. It truely is how all the melee in this game should have been built.

I would be happy if they never gave :Ni versions of the Enfeebles to ninja (slow, para, blind) but instead gave them :San versions of the elemental enfeebles. That way they wouldn't be encroaching so much on RDM territory and simultaneously kept a reason to continue using ninjutsus into the higher levels. Yep, too bad they didn't do it that way.

[Intensity]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I agree with you 100% Wish. There's a Poll on the Main Page about this.

Do you think people just want 75 and good gear?

That's the issue. As NIN I could get invites within seconds of logging in and probably could have been 75 w/ quite a few mrits within a month or so. But I don't. I static with my wife and roommates, we level probably once to twice a week. Other than that, we explore. Screw around. Whatever. The problem here isn't that PLD is a worse tank than NIN, it's that people would rather breeze through the game, get to 75, and then.... I don't know. It seems people are just playing to level and Merit. Nobody has any cares about playing WELL. They just want to play.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I want to point something out- PLDs aren't useless at all: People are just obsessed with the most result for their time. If all you can get is 6k/hr, then maybe that's what you're SUPPOSED to get. Where is it written in stone that you need to get constant chain 5 w/o resting? Where is it written that the gauge of a tank is how much WS they do on Decos, or how high they get chains?

1) Ninja are better exp tanks because they have 0 downtime, and require very little support. This means a mage can watch TV.

Last night a pt in Lufaise Meadows killing rams and birds with a paladin tank and in an hour we got 12k. Pt setup was whm, rdm, blm, pld, mnk, drk (Nace you teh man!!) With good pt members you can accomplish good numbers. One of the issues in this game is that people have to wait long times for pts. So when we get into a bad pt, we end up staying in it because who wants to sit and wait again. If more people left the pts that were bad and remembered why the pt was bad and didn't pt with that person/people or setup again, well we would all learn to pt more wisely and there would be less bad pts. But as long as we stick it out because we don't want to seek again, we'll have to accept 2nd best in the end.

Just a footnote that doesn't have anything to do with the original topic but I have to say it. ANYONE that slacks off is a bad pt member and people who read/watch tv/play other games/etc during an active pt are slacking off and not doing their job up to their full potential. If the game bores you so much, then why are you playing it?

I think this obsession with performance has shifted the focus of playing the game as a team-unit and transfered it into Elitist mentalities.

Couldn't agree more.

[Gwynn]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I think they should give PLD a Damage Reduction trait, with the highest level being 20% damage reduced. Couple that with Auto-Refresh or maybe AoE Auto-Refresh. I think giving PLD an aura or something could help... I dunno, I'm just kinda running at the mouth here, ignore me x_x

[kisada]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

actually i wouldn't mind too much for that to happen. it's very aparrent that the higher you progress, monsters become much much stronger than you at the proportionate levels. this has even bigger implications in terms of end-game, where a large majority of NM's and HNM's are tankable only with utsusemi or aerial armor.

a damage reduction trait would probably help change a lot people's reliance on these utilities.

[Taskmage]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Well they've already said they're considering giving PLD auto-refresh as well as increasing the effectiveness of shields in a couple ways. That essentially equates to what you're saying. I always though Phalanx was a PLD-appropriate spell, and I wouldn't be too hurt as a rdm if they took that soloing tool and gave it to a job that could make much better use of it.

According to some information released by Vanaguide, PLDs may soon get an ability called Enrage, which is like Provoke but has a 3 minute cooldown. If that proves to be a good enough tool to allow PLDs to hold hate without 'voke, that means you can start using more interesting subs. At higher levels /whm for Auto-Regen, Blink and Stoneskin, or /rdm for Fast Cast, Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx and Spikes. At lower levels maybe /mnk for Boost, Counter, Dodge and Max HP up.

... or ... you know ... /nin >_>

[little ninja]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

to be honest lets all thank those players who spent countless hours lvling the nin. without it. a good number of the player base would have quit. thfs would never see party invites without the ninja. because seriously, plds very rarely need to be tricked on. smns at 75 would be rare. when you think about it, they arent able to keep up with pld tanks cure needs. you cant S.C with them at all. they are limited im there effectiveness.

when you think about a normal pt set up has 6 slots. now lets say nin were never tanks. that means 1 slot would go to a pld. now leaving 5 slots for 14 other jobs. so in the end yodu look at it like this.. PLD (main tank) > WHM (main healer)> RDm (support healer nuker buffer debuffer) > ultimately leaving 3 slots left for 12 other jobs to fill. in my eyes thats where S.E screwed up. players making NIN a tank in the end prob bailed S.E out.

if not for nin tanks, their wouldnt be a large char base, youd have a ton of tanks a ton of mages. you dont believe me just look back at the drg nerf. alot of them went back to mage jobs, or pld.

[Tirrock]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I don't really disagree with little ninja's idea about FFXI really needing another tanking job other than PLD (or WAR in a pinch), but I'd just like to toss out that SMN can main heal PLD tanks, except on hard hitting things (like golems in sky) or things that petrify. It's just that most SMN seem to choose not to.

[Icemage]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I've never found Ninjas to be all that much better than Paladins in terms of overall tanking. Sure, in some cases they're great, but it's all down to skill level and gear choice.

Most of the perceived difference in effectiveness is just from people being lazy. If you're used to working hard to earn extra XP, you get no more from a ninja tank than a paladin tank in an XP group.

Only in cases where people are stupid or lazy does the difference ever really show - a ninja can often paper over the sucky nature of a WHM, but you instantly notice when your main healer sucks with a PLD. Same with bards - sucky bards can power up a ninja party on autopilot, but it takes some skill and cooperation to make sure a paladin has ballads while melees have attack songs (the corollary to this is that most bards actually suck, which is why so many PLDs are down on them).


Icemage

[kazuri]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I’ve read all 3 pages-worth posts, and there are tons of valid points for both Paladin and Ninja… but I won’t point those out. Do I think NIN>PLD or PLD>NIN? It’s all about the circumstances, no comment on that. Do I think a Paladin has a lot more limitations in terms of play style compared to Ninja? Yes, most definitely.

Personally, what I think is that Paladins should be given new job traits and abilities.

Some type of enmity burst JA, similar to Provoke would be well appreciated. Paladins are so limited to subbing Warrior for Provoke while trying to be the main tank, whereas I've seen anything from NIN/SAM (2-3WS usage per fight, and that’s the average count) to NIN/BLM (I’m sure everyone here knows about the INT/MATK+ & Elemental Ninjutsu tactic) tanking efficiently. A Ninja can perform with various combinations and still be great or well-working. How much people have seen an efficient PLD/RDM or PLD/NIN during an EXP Set-up? Both subs work good while soloing or exploring out possibilities, but when you try it out during an EXP Set-up, or just any other subs other than Warrior, the average joe always state that you; need Provoke, or it's too damn hard.

Adding in some sort of Job Trait could possibly boost a Paladin’s role too. (Not saying they’re weak, but oh-so many people have stated ‘PLD good, but NIN faster EXP.’

1) Lowers spell interruption %. This is pretty unreasonable, seeing as there are many caster jobs that don't get this type of trait, but it'd be nice.
2) A certain %-kick in of reducing ‘X’ % of damage taken. The point’s simple. Paladins take damage, Ninjas don’t. This is what creates downtime. The casters spend more of their MP on curing spells for their Paladins whereas they can add that into damage or assisting some form of damage-dealer (using more Haste, for example) if they have a Ninja. Having a job trait like this would reduce those event a bit more. It couldn’t be something ridiculous like 50% chance of reducing 10% of damage taken, but at least reasonable.

Also, people complain about Ninjas being a tank and a DD in 1, has anyone experienced a PLD/THF in action? Up to 1.2k SA-Spinning, all you need is a backup hate-spiker such as a Warrior in your party. And yes, they can maintain hate. It just requires a bit more action (Curaga Earring usage, a bit more focus and macro swaps) and bam. It’s the same way for Ninjas. Play a bit better, and you can perform better.

All in all, I honestly think Paladins can/do work fine the way they are, as a tanker, a damage-dealer, or whatever you wish for. But I do acknowledge that Ninjas are more versatile than Paladins, and that does upset me.

[Kittyneko]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Key point bolded but all qft. It all comes down to efficiency. If you don't like it, shell out the gil to be a blink tank. Every job has its place in this game, if you don't like PLD's place, why did you decide to play it?

{fact}

[Intensity]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

According to some information released by Vanaguide, PLDs may soon get an ability called Enrage, which is like Provoke but has a 3 minute cooldown.

I've actually got a sneaking suspicion this will be for Puppetmasters. I'm probably wrong, but that's never stopped me before. =P

[Karinya]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

So you think some jobs' "place" is to be superior to others? BS. I don't think SE intended that and I definitely don't think they *should* intend that.

Part of the problem with high level PLD is that at high levels, monster level affects monster power much more strongly than it affects exp value: a 100 exp mob is much, much more than twice as easy as a 200 exp mob. (If you can even *find* a 200 exp mob.) So most parties are massacring large numbers of relatively weak mobs, that often don't hit hard enough to really need a tank at all. They're basically no threat whatsoever but are still worth pretty good exp, while a much tougher and more dangerous Kindred Warrior or Tavnazian Ram is worth only 50% more exp, if that.

If you actually *are* fighting IT mobs, inviting a ninja you don't know is risky (and having no tank at all is suicide). Any but a very good ninja will be at serious risk of death a couple times an hour - and every death decreases your exp quite a bit. But who wants to fight IT when you get more exp on low VT that don't really hit back?

IMO, SE should change the function relating EXP value to monster level at high levels, so that monsters that aren't really a threat aren't worth as much exp, and more dangerous monsters are worth more. (The "tough", "very tough" or "incredibly tough" designation is based on exp value, so some things that now check low VT would start checking T, even though their actual level isn't different.)

This would change the balance between TP-burn parties and parties with tanks, without having to nerf anyone's character - only monsters would change. Instead of 12k/hr vs 6k/hr, it would be 9k/hr either way, so it's more a matter of who is available lfp and maybe personal style preference, rather than "I don't want to give up half my exp by taking a PLD".


Or maybe SE just intended PLDs to have a more damage-oriented setup in exp, and pure def/vit builds are "supposed" to be for HNM/Dynamis only. Certainly, if a WAR in DD gear and eating meat or sushi can take hits from a Decorative Weapon, so can a PLD that isn't in pure DEF/VIT stuff. Maybe it just doesn't occur to players that it's possible for a tank setup to be TOO defensive. Unfortunately, I'm far too poor to really explore this possibility, since the gear I would need is mostly insanely expensive (hauby or byrnie, the dusk set, flame rings, etc.)

[WishMaster3K]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

It's not about elitism, it's common sense. Get Exp Faster = Faster Exp/merits = do other funner stuff.

To counter that point, where is it written that you need an intensive, damage spamming roaming pt? 6k/hour isnt bad, it's damn good. It means that you always ended on a chain 5, maybe even 6.

TWO k an hour is bad, that means you only killed at most: 20 mobs with no chain, or 12-15 mobs with chain.

I feel that, as a mage, people are too damned lazy with NIN tanks. With a NIN, I cure less, enfeeble less and save about 100mp or more a fight. Translate that over the course of 2-3 hours, and it means less downtime, more exp.

My friend is raising BRD, and, bless his heart, he's a lazy bastard. He doesn't like to Sneak/Invis other pt members, and he hates ballading the PLD. He's not a noob, but he was raising BRD to get to the meriting point for all his melee jobs that got stuck at 50. . .

Like I said, he's a good guy, just a lazy bastard. Tha majority of players feel this same way. I can afford to look away and talk to whomever is in my room when i'm in a melee pt that consists of ME + BRD + 4 WS Spammers. I can even pop a /heal if I buffed the tank before the fight and threw out a Dia.

With a PLD tank, it's unlikely that pt's will nomad, and it's unlikely that I can take a break in battle. I also have to keep Refresh on, Enfeeble the mob with my full line (cause there is no NIN) and with a PLD, that means I'm probably also refreshing a WHM, and with Refreshes, I usually Haste myself.

That's a LOT of MP. Here are the spells at my disposal at any given time:

Haste= 40MP
Refresh = 40MP
Paralyze = 6MP
Slow = 15MP
Dia2 = 30MP (Alla says 59, but for arguments sake, I'm saying 30)
Poison2 = 8MP
Blind = 8MP
Gravity = 24
Cure4 = 96
Cure3 = 46
Dispel = 25
Silence = 18

Regular Fight with a PLD pt:
Haste myself, Refresh myself, Dia2, Paralyze, Refresh PLD, Slow, Blind, Refresh WHM.
That's the BARE MINIMUM that I do. And that is 219MP. I sub WHM for added pt help, so I do not get Conserve MP. I only get 150 back from Refresh. I haste myself to help recasts, so I have more time to /h or help the pt out. But THEN I have to throw out Cure 3s, at least 2-3 if the WHM is competant, and I rarely do Cure4 cause of the massive hate spike and the bad healing<->MPcost ratio.

So with just 2 Cure3s, that's 311MP for one fight. I only have about 900. Refresh and +hMP gear and my knowledge allows me to only need convert every 15mins, but the WHMs aren't that lucky.

Regular Fight with NIN pt.
Refresh myself, haste NIN, Dia2, paralyze (NINs say that Jubaku:Ichi is a longer cast time, and I agree, so I cast this). I curaga a lot in these pts, I noticed that I Convert a hell of a lot more, but there isn't a need for a "dedicated" healer such as a WHM or a SMN. That equates to: since less healing is required, we add another DD, and since there is a BRD doing Minuet, we don't have 4 Melee, we have about 5.5 on one monster. So the exp is double.

The point is, you're right, but in a PLD pt, I do more work, and I can't afford to mess up. I'm a machine or RDM Excellence tho, so it's all rudamentary to me, but some people don't like being challanged. They want to get to 75 asap, merit, go to sky pts, get gear, and be uberer than their friends.

And don't even get me STARTED on the amount of work I have to do with Aura Weapons. I have anywhere from 3-4 Dispels, 100 MP right there, I'm on Silence duty, and I'm usually needed for the MB. NINs hate Aura weapons, which means that PLDs eat that, which means more MP usage for the pt. Needless to say, the exp is a tad slower, and I'm crying for my Convert Timer.

The striking differences in these two tanking setups are why PLDs aren't appreciated. But I know I'm good, cause PLDs love me and compliment me. NINs don't appreciate shit, but I could care less, cause I hit my controller 10times a fight with NINs, and I get more exp.

PLD is a harder job, on the entire pt.

Edit:
I think it's ironic that for people that are so serious about their jobs, their gear, their numbers, they seem to be saying "It's my right to be lazy!"

Just a thought of mine. Tell a PLD they can be lazy, and you'll have a very heavy paperweight on the ground of wherever you happen to be exping.