SE and their beloved Ninjas

[qaitakalnin]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Ok, i know i am fledgling pld but one thing that i do think needs to happend is that they paladins needs some sort of damage reduction/negation like that of the blink. Wouldnt that pretty much make them at least equal to the nins, i mean that is what everyone wants the nin tanks for right is the fact that they dont require as much mp to "maintain"? I think by making the shields do what they did originaly, totaly negate the dmg from an attack, but maybe only as a pld only ability? would that be enough you think?

As far as the DD thing goes, having done rng with both nin and pld tanks, i actually prefer the pld tanks cause i can go all out, there by negating the dmg done by the could have been done by the nin, and not have to worry about the mob coming after me and then having to readjust my range. I have ptd with good and bad tanks, and the arguement stands that, that counts a lot toward hate control and toward effeciency. I personally think people just need to get over the whole "this is how you have to do something period" ideas, isnt that how manaburn parties, arrow burn parties, heck that is even how nin tanks came into being, cause someone got together with a few other people and said "Hey lets try something new" and they worked on it. Flexibility is the key to xp parties imho and it seems that people in general are unwilling to be flexible for whatever reason. I know the reasons, i understand the reasons, but it is still just a game, we are all still intitled to our own opinions and hey you want to try something new please do, i wish you the best.

[nanatsu]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

in all truth.. if i see 5 guys infront of my i gotta pick 1/5 guys. so i technicaly have a 20% chance of hitting the real guy and removing all shadows (whats ninja shadows should do) also if one of the 5 guys does something that hurts me. that guy outta the 5 i really dont like (aka the tank in xp) so ill go for that one guy which then removes the other 4 guys (shadows) these things would make ninjas able to tank :x but would remove some things (theyd get hit not 100% dodge). also a /nin tp burn party wont work because when it switched aggro it hits you and not the shadows: x

You know, SE should've had the foresight to do things that way in the first palce if they didn't want ninja to be a blink tank. That would've kept them out of the tanking spotlight probably.

[Caspian]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

in all truth.. if i see 5 guys infront of my i gotta pick 1/5 guys. so i technicaly have a 20% chance of hitting the real guy and removing all shadows (whats ninja shadows should do) also if one of the 5 guys does something that hurts me. that guy outta the 5 i really dont like (aka the tank in xp) so ill go for that one guy which then removes the other 4 guys (shadows) these things would make ninjas able to tank :x but would remove some things (theyd get hit not 100% dodge). also a /nin tp burn party wont work because when it switched aggro it hits you and not the shadows: x

Not necessarily. Since we don't actually see the shadows, you could say that the ninja is standing behind the 4 shadows and the mob has to hack its way past all the others before it can get to the true one.

And Intensity is right, think about how many good pickup party PLD's you've had, then think about how many good pickup party NIN's you've had. I think maybe of all the NIN's I've had as tanks, maybe a couple of them have actually used their debuff ninjitsus. It pisses me off to no end. Connecting one or two of those is a LOT of hate, but hardly anyone uses them b/c the powder and scrolls are "too expensive". It the flipside of the coin that Intensity said about knowingly picking up an unloved job and then complaining that its not loved. You know the job costs a lot of money to play properly, but these jackasses continue to halfass it.

[DakAttack]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

This isn't solely about EXP, my invites are quick compared to certain jobs, but never as fast as Ninjas. I'm not sure why I didn't just say this earlier, but my intentions for leveling Paladin was to have a desireable job for CoP. I leveled Warrior specifically for CoP 40 cap missions, and Ninja as a sub just incase I took Warrior to 60. After Phomiuna Warriors were pretty much phased out of pick up parties so I took up Paladin since it was already at thirty. I wanted Sea and the ability to get Homam for my Dragoon.

Leveling Paladin from 50-60 forced me to take a much deeper interest in it, and I've almost completely forgotten about leveling Dragoon. I've put more money into it than I do Dragoon, and now I consider it my main. At least I can say I wasn't simply looking for a free ride to seventy-five, which is an odd expression when referring to Ninjas and Rangers since it's actually quite pricey.

Playing a Ninja isn't any harder than Paladin, playing both is very meticulous, because you're trying to gauge your hate and make sure you're not going overboard but at the same time make sure you're not losing too much. The only differnce is while Paladins are taking the damage, Ninjas are completely avoiding it. While Paladins are getting his with silences, paralyzes, and other enfeebling magic Ninjas are avoiding it. Everything we get hit with costs a Whm, Rdm, or Brd extra MP which in turn slows down the party. I've never seen chain six as a Paladin yet, heck I rarely see chain five.

Sometimes it seems as if certain bosses were designed with Ninjas only in mind. GK AA? He does Keikyo Suishi three times in a row, there's no way a Paladin could survive that even with Invincible. Only shadows would be able to absorb that kind of damage. Even Omega Weapon was designed to be anti-Paladin. Fast attacks that have a 50% change to stun as well as several other abilities that are absorbed by shadows. I'm pretty sure the missile barrage hits all shadows. I was always under the impression that a balanced party would be able to accomplish any mission, but now it seems certain parts are Paladin onry while most others are Ninja onry.

[dirtyclown]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Granted, it's not easy being a good PLD either, but I DO think it takes less effort.

If you really sit down and think about it, both jobs have alot to do in a party. You've got enfeebling spells, and I've got Job Abilities. Sure, I could spam them and keep hate just fine, but every good Paladin knows that each ability has a use other than garnering hate and they know when and when not to use them. Tanking is quite a chaotic job and I personally feel that both Paladins and Ninjas are about even in the effort department. You might have to work harder against mobs that like to use AoE attacks while I have to work harder against the ones that like to do high damage specials followed by double criticals. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just thought I'd point that out.

[Deltran]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

If you really sit down and think about it, both jobs have alot to do in a party. You've got enfeebling spells, and I've got Job Abilities. Sure, I could spam them and keep hate just fine, but every good Paladin knows that each ability has a use other than garnering hate and they know when and when not to use them. Tanking is quite a chaotic job and I personally feel that both Paladins and Ninjas are about even in the effort department. You might have to work harder against mobs that like to use AoE attacks while I have to work harder against the ones that like to do high damage specials followed by double criticals. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just thought I'd point that out.

/cheer /clap

very well put

[Intensity]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

If you really sit down and think about it, both jobs have alot to do in a party. You've got enfeebling spells, and I've got Job Abilities. Sure, I could spam them and keep hate just fine, but every good Paladin knows that each ability has a use other than garnering hate and they know when and when not to use them. Tanking is quite a chaotic job and I personally feel that both Paladins and Ninjas are about even in the effort department. You might have to work harder against mobs that like to use AoE attacks while I have to work harder against the ones that like to do high damage specials followed by double criticals. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just thought I'd point that out.

Excellent point. That's what I'm saying. PLD's not better than NIN. NIN isn't better than PLD. They're both built to tank in different ways. Granted we weren't designed to tank, but we do just the same. And yes, I also agree that there's some mobs PLD just can't take. But there's also mobs NIN just can't tank either. I'll admit, my end-game experience is lacking in this discussion, that's why I try to avoid it. But aren't PLD's the most desired tanks for the Dragons? What about Diabolos? The new Bahamut fights? Ouryu (PM 4-2)?

[dirtyclown]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Excellent point. That's what I'm saying. PLD's not better than NIN. NIN isn't better than PLD. They're both built to tank in different ways. Granted we weren't designed to tank, but we do just the same. And yes, I also agree that there's some mobs PLD just can't take. But there's also mobs NIN just can't tank either. I'll admit, my end-game experience is lacking in this discussion, that's why I try to avoid it. But aren't PLD's the most desired tanks for the Dragons? What about Diabolos? The new Bahamut fights? Ouryu (PM 4-2)?

Two very important things I've learned while playing this game:

1) People exaggerate
2) People will believe almost anything they hear

Of course, if you want to get technical you could say that I completely discredit myself by saying that. But I can't even begin to count the things that I've done and experienced that other people have claimed as impossible. When someone says that a certain mob requires a Ninja I immediately want to go out and tank it just to prove them wrong.

Different LSes have a different strategy, but generally I think Paladin does tank the dragons (Except maybe Seiryuu, or whichever one has raging fists) and I've heard alot of different things about Byakko. Some Paladins own him and others get rocked by him, same for Ninjas, though they tend to be successful more often. I always tried to stay away from endgame stuff though, other games have taught me my lesson with that. I'd rather save myself a migraine than go through LS drama and fighting.

[Intensity]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

But I can't even begin to count the things that I've done and experienced that other people have claimed as impossible. When someone says that a certain mob requires a Ninja I immediately want to go out and tank it just to prove them wrong.

QFT

My static leveled on Manticores @ the entrance to the cloister of gales 65/66-69. When we started asking friends where we should level from 69+, they told us Manticores in Cape Terrigan. o.O Just because something is the "established" way doesn't mean it's the best or that it's right. It usually just means it's the easiest.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Ouryu mission I helped with recently had war/nin, rdm/blm, rng/nin, and 3 blm/rdm's.

Byakko for my ls is paladin tanked.

Kirin is nin or war/nin tanked with pld's doing all the gods. So a 50/50ish split. But if need be we stick in pld's to tank him too but fast pants are a must!

[pearlsea]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

They CANNOT nurf NIN since pepole have already spent countless hours and gil on it, plus it would be bad press/buissness for SE, thats why they are buffing pld, but personaly from my experiance from taru pld to 25 i can make more hate than anyone can pull off me without a seccond provoke just by spaming cure, with all the other tools avalible then if i cant keep hate then you know im doing something wrong, but i know its not the case with NIN, so in the end its possible that we both NIN and PLD can have pros and cons, people will still preffer nin tanks but id like to see another job create as much hate as me.

[capitalistnihilist]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

We have PLDs tank byakko with NINs backing them up and on Kirin we have NIN and WARs kiting him while PLDs tank the gods.

A buddy of mine is in an LS that has NINs and RDM/NINs tank EVERYTHING. In fact i think they only had 2 PLD in the entire LS.

[nanatsu]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

They CANNOT nurf NIN since pepole have already spent countless hours and gil on it...

People spent gobs of time and money on ranger too but they changed it. The same can be said for other jobs that got the nerf bat in the past. That's a bad argument.

[Lmnop]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

brd/nin tanking fafnir... as if Brd wasn't useful enough already

[WishMaster3K]

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I want to point something out- PLDs aren't useless at all: People are just obsessed with the most result for their time. If all you can get is 6k/hr, then maybe that's what you're SUPPOSED to get. Where is it written in stone that you need to get constant chain 5 w/o resting? Where is it written that the gauge of a tank is how much WS they do on Decos, or how high they get chains?

I think this obsession with performance has shifted the focus of playing the game as a team-unit and transfered it into Elitist mentalities.

While PLDs in the PT require a different playing method, I will admit that I feel safer with PLD tanking. PLDs REQUIRE a Refresher and a Healer. At 75, I simply cannot be the only healer with a PLD in the pt, because I haste myself for Refresh recast, cure tank and Refresh PLD. Then I gotta monitor the rest of the pt.

If it's me and a BRD, then I can manage it ok, but if I have to babysit the MP of more than myself and the PLD, then I can not main heal, the strain is too much on my pool at the pace these melee want to go nowadays. Sadly, I can go RDM/WHM in exp pts where everyone subs /NIN and spam Curaga. That's easy.

Having NIN means 1 less refresh, 3 less enfeebles and -75% of the curing, meaning spamming curaga on the Whirls of Rage is less taxing on my pool. NINs are one of the reasons people are glad to forgo a WHM. In fact, dump another melee in there with /NIN sub and you can skip out on a BLM that would selfishly steal hate. (If the Thundaga 3 and Thunder 3 from the back lines don't kill the mobs after the Light SC, [ie, chain was done at start of fight], we'll have one pissed off mob. . .)

I'll restate this since this is the end of my post: Nothing is wrong with PLDs, people are just now obsessed with exp/hour and ease of partying.