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**Karinya** · 03-23-2006, 11:13 AM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

And until you've been interrupted five times in a row (and then the mob goes after the MNK, because you haven't done a damn thing for 15 seconds) because you have piss poor evasion and parry and all but one of your spells has the casting time of an Ichi ninjutsu, you'll never know what it is to PLD tank.

If someone who has both PLD and NIN at 70+ wants to show up and explain the differences - speaking from experience - maybe we should listen, but otherwise, we're just going to talk past each other and accomplish nothing.

SE needs to realize that spending gil is not an excuse to make a job overpowered. They brought RNG more in line with other DD, but NIN is still out of line with other tanks in effectiveness - especially at HNM which have the same delay as a normal mob but 2-3x the damage.

**dirtyclown** · 03-23-2006, 11:13 AM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Originally posted by Intensity

Paladin is simple. Provoke, Flash, Cure, rinse and repeat. Ninja's have to count shadows, pay attention and know the timing of a Mobs swings. They have to keep an eye on when Kurayami and Hojo drop. We have to manage hate with the PT. Paladins just have to stand there and spam their Cures.

I LOL'ed. Seriously, that was funny.

**Intensity** · 03-23-2006, 11:32 AM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Originally posted by net.drifter

Im sorry... did I miss the Playonline news where you were elected the NIN spokesman?

Cause as far as I know, there is nothing NIN need to improvise for. SE made plenty of equipment for NIN to keep hate. So the only thing NINs deal with is shoving out the gil or being in the right LS.

And once you actually get to the end game equipment and armor, youll find keeping hate as a NIN is a joke. Yeah, thats right... when SE acknowledged that NIN was never meant to be a tank a while back... what did they do? They implimented more equipment for them with enmity +. And any NIN with the ideal setup is just a speed demon DD blink tank that keeps hate just as good as a PLD.

Yes .Net, looks like I am the NIN spokesman. I wasn't aware it was an election type role, I figured any Ninja who decided to step-up was allowed. You mind posting the "Election" form?

As far as End-Game Ninja's being able to hold hate. So, you're saying that because once we've leveled the job 1-70, that for the last 5 levels of the game, our abilities are making Paladins cry so we deserve a nerf? I didn't realize all the comparisons flying about we're ONLY for 70-75. My mistake. I could've sworn PLD's we're bytching universally, not just end-game.

**neighbortaru** · 03-23-2006, 11:47 AM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

ok guys, let's try to keep this civil...

we've all heard this argument before. nobody likes being nerfed, but it's SE game and they can do as they please.

Luckily, they did say that they are not planing on doing anything to NIN for the time.

However, they have recognized that PLD are getting tossed aside so they plan to add new abilities to make them stronger. Let's wait to see how this affects things before jumping down each other's throats.

**Rodin** · 03-23-2006, 12:05 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

My ideas for improving downtime with PLD:

A sword that gives VIT+ and MP drain that procs more than 1/100 times.
Shield blocks give back MP, NOT TP.
Job Ability: "Spell Interruption Rate Down"

NIN is a good tank, PLD is a good tank. I haven't had a WAR/NIN tank from 74-75. From what I've seen, NINs are making bad WHMs. I've seen more and more NIN PT ONRY!!! WHMs. These are just XP leeches. Most of them don't even use Haste because "it's the RDMs job." I have two different styles of play depending on the tank. For Paladin, I do things in this order:

1) Spam Regen on PLD before every fight.
2) If Goblin, put up Barfira. If not, use Haste on the PLD.
3) Cure II - IIII spam on PLD depending on how much HP he has.
4) Haste Secondary DD.
5) Cure II - III spam on PLD depending on how much HP he has.
6) Rest a bit, and let PLD use Cure IV on himself.

For NIN what I do is:
1) Haste NIN.
2) Regen NIN.
3) Haste Secondary DD.
4) Check and see if NIN needs healing.
5) Haste Tertiary (That's 3rd) DD.
6) Check and see if anyone needs healing.
7) Rest MP.

Also, I use Flash if the NIN is having trouble getting Utsusemi up. Most WHMs won't even do that because "they'll get hate."

Either way, I keep myself busy and use my MP. Most WHMs I see now will only party with NINs and suck at doing their jobs correctly.

**Karinya** · 03-23-2006, 12:12 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

PLD are fine until they arrive at HNMs that attack once every 5 seconds for 500 damage (plus 250 more if the ranger missed) and people say "why did we bring them, anyway"? It's only the HNMs that have much more damage but the same delay as ordinary mobs (and where hate is hardly a problem for anyone, because DDs are doing crap damage and/or trading out of the claim alliance after only a few seconds) that break the PLD vs. NIN balance.

I've seen PLD in Uleguerand and I've seen NIN in Uleguerand (both getting consistent #5s with an occasional #6 - basically killing everything but snolls/eles as fast as it respawns) and frankly, I'll take the PLD. Seeing what happens when a Condemnation gets through shadows is scary - even though it may only happen once or twice in a whole party, it can easily result in one or more deaths. PLD suck it up and go on - if they don't manage to counter-Flash it instead. Smolenkos's Eyes on Me goes through utsu too (which is only fair, it's also not reduced by def; but it can easily be over 50% of a ninja's HP). As for hate, well, everyone has trouble with merited monks. Destroyers + crit merits + double attack and kick = bunch of crits in a row = huge hate. A PLD can sometimes, but not always, get it back faster.

I certainly wouldn't mind a buff to PLD, but in exp and merit fighting high VT-IT, PLD are fine. It takes a different approach to be successful in a T-low VT spam party, that personally I don't have the gear for, but I'm not going to say it *can't* work. It's at ultra-high-damage HNMs that PLD fall apart. Sometimes I think the next NM to be introduced into the game will attack once every 30 seconds for 100,000 damage - or one shadow. It seems to be the current trend.

Who's looking forward to this:
Odin uses Zantetsuken.
Karinya was defeated by Odin.
1 of Randomninja's shadows absorbs the damage and disappears.

**Grizzlebeard** · 03-23-2006, 12:20 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Paladin was my first main job which I took as far as 66 and quit in frustration and boredom. In exp parties it literally consisted of hours of Provoke, Shield Bash or Sentinel or Warcry, Flash, Provoke, Cure, Provoke and the odd WS.... rinse repeat. All the while hoping:
1) you didn't run out of MP;
2) you wouldn't be told you can rest between fights with your Dark Staff instead of getting Refresh and hence losing any TP built up;
3) the white mage was awake or not bitter enough at having to waste MP on you because they really wanted a ninja so they could sit around watching tv or chatting to friends while the party dumps exp in their laps;
4) the DD jobs, black mage included, don't take it as a personal challenge to see just how much effort it takes to pull aggro off you, "LoLZ teH PalZ0r L0zt H811!";
5) that you made more exp than you lost in deaths due to lack of healing, idiocy, or "taking one for the team".

Conversely, levelling ninja from 1 to 75 I adopted an entirely different approach and funnily enough found it refreshing. If I joined a party and the exp sucked or the people in it were morons I thanked them for their time and left. If they asked why I used to tell them I couldn't justify blowing 20-30k an hour on ninja tools for 3k per hour xp. The difference with ninja is you are literally paying for your exp. Even HNMs you'll find a ninja is generally out of pocket and luck in most situations. None of the ground HNMs offer any upgrades for ninja, only Sky to some limited extent does. While paladins can obtain jelly rings, koenig, AF1 and AF2 which is still highly functional unlike ninja AF, Defending Rings, Shadow Mantles, Joyeuse, etc etc. Ninjas have to pay to be able to tank HNMs that offer no gear upgrades for them. I can gear a 75 paladin up ready to tank HNMs, Sky, Sea, etc for the cost of a scorpion harness. That's only one piece of ninja "required" gear.

I will agree that ninja leaves paladin standing in survivability in most situations but the statement that only a few mobs have AoE's is pure bullshit. Ninjas are way more fragile than people seem to think. Almost every mob in the game has access to an AoE attack that can and will take down all a ninja's shadows while many others just pass straight through. Then you're left with a cloth wearer taking hits for massive amounts of damage compared to a paladin with huge defense and vitality benefits.

Playing both paladin and ninja and soloing with both I'd say the auto-refresh is a step in the right direction but I'd say they should implement an auto-regen as well and seriously review the benefits of high defense and vitality when mitigating damage from mobs because paladins are so far behind ninjas on desirability for exp parties it's not even funny. However, everyone wants a paladin or two at high end to tank those HNMs for their abjurations etc but no-one is willing to give them the time of day in exp parties because, like I said earlier, they actually make the healers have to use their precious MP and stay awake and aware for longer than three seconds.

**framerate** · 03-23-2006, 12:32 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Just give PLD provoke. Case closed.

**Kaickul** · 03-23-2006, 01:01 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Originally posted by Intensity

Yes .Net, looks like I am the NIN spokesman. I wasn't aware it was an election type role, I figured any Ninja who decided to step-up was allowed. You mind posting the "Election" form?

As far as End-Game Ninja's being able to hold hate. So, you're saying that because once we've leveled the job 1-70, that for the last 5 levels of the game, our abilities are making Paladins cry so we deserve a nerf? I didn't realize all the comparisons flying about we're ONLY for 70-75. My mistake. I could've sworn PLD's we're bytching universally, not just end-game.

Ill try and keep it civil and short...

Please quote me on where I said anything close to *they should nerf NIN*.

If all you do to keep hate as a PLD is spam cures and bitch about refresh... you suck as a PLD.

If you think NIN is such a skilled class that you can look down your nose (without any endgame experience) at bitching PLDs as if you are PWNAGE INCARNATE... those 70 levels didnt teach you as much as what happens after your last 5 levels concerning why PLDs are disgruntled.

So from your own words... Intensity:

Originally posted by Intensity

I never knew I was so creative. Here's one you might recognize that I also feel is appropriate.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Why dont you follow your own advise and stop hating people who are frustrated with a job that been sidelined by player innovation (i.e. Ninjas becoming super tanks) and hate the game(makers) who do nothing to end the bitching of people who are frustrated with PLDs place in the game.

I gave up on PLD a long time ago so I dont hold any animosity towards NINs in general... just arrogance.

Back on topic:

Originally posted by framerate

Just give PLD provoke. Case closed.

QFT

**Intensity** · 03-23-2006, 01:54 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

I have taken my own advice. I don't hate the game OR the player. I hate the people who get into a job, knowing full well its limitations, THEN decide to come on a message board and blame their inadequacy(Think I spelled that wrong) on another job. "PLD's are so gimped compared to NIN, DAMN NIN!!!" That's bullshyt.

As for SE not addressing PLD's "Place in the game", soooo, what are they missing? So, what you guys are basically saying then is that ALONG with Super DEF, the ability to cure themselves, Hate generation like no other job, and soon to be an auto-refresh, on top of all this, they should be able to avoid damage completely? Sorry but it just sounds to me like you want to be the end-all-be-all tanks and not share the job with anyone else.

And as for your snide comment concerning my end-game experience, did you skip over that part of my previous post? Let me reitterate, I wasn't aware this thread revolved solely around End-Game. From what I've read, it's a complaint about PLD 1-75, not 70-75.

**Kaickul** · 03-23-2006, 02:50 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Originally posted by Intensity

I have taken my own advice. I don't hate the game OR the player. I hate the people who get into a job, knowing full well its limitations, THEN decide to come on a message board and blame their inadequacy(Think I spelled that wrong) on another job. "PLD's are so gimped compared to NIN, DAMN NIN!!!" That's bullshyt.

Okay, so all the PLDs who were leveling up and started when NIN was introduced can come and say that? Cause there are plenty who were, as I said, sidelined after NIN's potiential was utilized.

Originally posted by Intensity

As for SE not addressing PLD's "Place in the game", soooo, what are they missing? So, what you guys are basically saying then is that ALONG with Super DEF, the ability to cure themselves, Hate generation like no other job, and soon to be an auto-refresh, on top of all this, they should be able to avoid damage completely? Sorry but it just sounds to me like you want to be the end-all-be-all tanks and not share the job with anyone else.

Dunno who the hell yer talkin to there, cause I would totally agree with you on the damage avoidance or job sharing. WAR are actually the ones with a major beef, cause they were supposed to be the tanks until PLD came along followed by NIN.

But the super DEF... sorry... no. By endgame PLD defense, curing, and hate generation means shit, and even SE admitted that PLDs taking too much damage and getting one-shotted by HNMs/Gods was an issue with their rejection.

Originally posted by Intensity

And as for your snide comment concerning my end-game experience, did you skip over that part of my previous post? Let me reitterate, I wasn't aware this thread revolved solely around End-Game. From what I've read, it's a complaint about PLD 1-75, not 70-75.

No I didnt...
Quoted from one of your fellow NIN:

Originally posted by Grizzlebeard

Playing both paladin and ninja and soloing with both I'd say the auto-refresh is a step in the right direction but I'd say they should implement an auto-regen as well and seriously review the benefits of high defense and vitality when mitigating damage from mobs because paladins are so far behind ninjas on desirability for exp parties it's not even funny. However, everyone wants a paladin or two at high end to tank those HNMs for their abjurations etc but no-one is willing to give them the time of day in exp parties because, like I said earlier, they actually make the healers have to use their precious MP and stay awake and aware for longer than three seconds.

**Intensity** · 03-23-2006, 03:27 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

Alright Net, I think we've come to a misunderstanding. There's little in your last post I disagree with. The point I'm making here is that PLD's have there place just like NIN's do. I understand your sentiments concerning NIN's excelling at tanking while PLD's stutter along. But who's fault is this? It's not the Ninja's. I think the OP's animosity is misplaced. Why is it that everytime a PLD gets pissed off @ the crappy pickup pt's who are too lazy to keep them alive and enahanced, they get pissed off at NIN's.

I'm not going to look for the post, but someone made an excellent point earlier too. If a Ninja isn't on the ball, and I mean @ all times, they die. FAST. There's NO WAY, everyone here hasn't pt'd with a crappy Ninja. They're wayyyyyy worse than dealing with crappy PLD's.

Good Ninja's aren't a Dime a dozen either. I don't like how everyone makes it seem like you can go buy a stack of Shihei and pwn. We're busy, we're constantly paying close attention to the mob being enfeebled and keeping our own shadows up. It's not easy being a good Ninja. Granted, it's not easy being a good PLD either, but I DO think it takes less effort. I'll admit, a great Ninja will probably outperform (Efficiency-wise) a great PLD, but only in EXP situations.

**Deltran** · 03-23-2006, 03:42 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

you know whats really funny, if they gimp nin there will be just as many threads of nins complaining maybe even more so no mater what no 1 will be happy

**Intensity** · 03-23-2006, 03:57 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

EDIT: I changed my mind about responding to the above post @ all. Speculation is a great argument starter. We've had enough of that I think. If a mod sees this can you delete this post?

**Anaki** · 03-23-2006, 04:03 PM

Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

in all truth.. if i see 5 guys infront of my i gotta pick 1/5 guys. so i technicaly have a 20% chance of hitting the real guy and removing all shadows (whats ninja shadows should do) also if one of the 5 guys does something that hurts me. that guy outta the 5 i really dont like (aka the tank in xp) so ill go for that one guy which then removes the other 4 guys (shadows) these things would make ninjas able to tank :x but would remove some things (theyd get hit not 100% dodge). also a /nin tp burn party wont work because when it switched aggro it hits you and not the shadows: x

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SE and their beloved Ninjas

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