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  • SE and their beloved Ninjas

    I really try to avoid such comparison threads, but in this case it's impossible. Square-Enix has given us three tanking jobs; Paladin, Ninja, and Warrior, but Warrior takes the backseat at 37 until 74 for obvious reasons; yet they see no problem in completely overpowering one tank, and by comparison completely underpowering the others? I mean, for a job that was never meant to be a tank how can they allow it to completely outshine their intended tanking jobs?

    It frustrates me to no end when people compare me to the Ninja, and completely disregard me as a tank for pretty much everything. You would think I'd be used to it since my main is a Dragoon right? Well it feels the same every single time. The audacity of some people to ask me to tank certain CoP missions that simply require a Paladin to run in, Invincble, then die is outraegous. I have proved time and time again that I'm a perfectly efficient tank, and I go to great lengths in making sure my equipment is up to date. But hey, who wouldn't want a Ninja tank? Oh sure, a Paladin has his uses here and there, but he's just a tool, because once that use has been used he's dropped like a suicide Gobby bomb. The only place where Paladins have a definate place are Dynamis and HNMs, but you only need so many Paladins so a lot are left out.

    Why should I be angry because people want a tank that can completely avoid physical and magical damage, as well as enfeebling magic? That's like playing your favorite game as a god with the rare area-effect spell as your only weakness. While Paladins are out there taking every single hit to the teeth Ninjas are skipping along humming quite a nice tune. Paladins need constant supervision and upkeep, such as constant cures, constant Erases or other such spells, and a slot in the Refresh cycle, while Ninjas can replace their White Mage with a Summoner and breeze through the kills with even more ease thanks to the Avatar buffs. How could a tank that requires MORE effort be so much worse than a tank that requires practically none?

    Everybody acts as if the Ninja is Square-Enix's big gift to mankind. Since the equalization of Rangers, Paladins on every server have been waiting for SE to see their mistakes with Ninjas as well, and when they simply decided to create a hate loss with shadows a collective sigh was heard across Vana'diel. And now they've decided that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with Ninjas, rather it's Paladins that need some sort of miniscule buff. What are they giving us? An auto-refresh and more TP gained from blocking with a shield? That will do absolutely nothing inside parties, just absolutely nothing. We change weapons while we rest for increased MP regen, and some wimpy 1mp/tick refresh will be pointless when we always have a Red Mage with us for Refresh. Paladin tanks can easily work very well, but they'll never compare to Ninjas. There isn't a SINGLE improvement that they could give us to make a difference; there isn't a single job ability they could come up with that equals the ability to completely avoid damage. What's the point in handing a man with a unicycle a bike when the man he's racing is in a car?

    This is something I'm sure you've all seen me call Blizzard on, and a lot of you have agree'd with me on such issues, but the gross imbalance of job classes is something you just can't overlook like this. A lot of Paladins and even a few Ninjas have agreed with me, SE's ability to completely overlook such problems is uncanny. I'd like to hear what everybody here thinks about this, God forbid I post something like this on Alla or KI, but I think I need to hear more opinions from other people; maybe it's all in my head.

  • #2
    Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

    /shrug. maybe if they make utsusemi not 100% the same way blink is. but i doubt it.
    There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
    but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence
    transform a yellow spot into the sun.

    - Pablo Picasso

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    • #3
      Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

      Originally posted by Impaction
      But hey, who wouldn't want a Ninja tank? Oh sure, a Paladin has his uses here and there, but he's just a tool, because once that use has been used he's dropped like a suicide Gobby bomb. The only place where Paladins have a definate place are Dynamis and HNMs, but you only need so many Paladins so a lot are left out.

      Ninjas can replace their White Mage with a Summoner and breeze through the kills with even more ease thanks to the Avatar buffs.

      And now they've decided that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with Ninjas, rather it's Paladins that need some sort of miniscule buff.

      We change weapons while we rest for increased MP regen, and some wimpy 1mp/tick refresh will be pointless when we always have a Red Mage with us for Refresh. Paladin tanks can easily work very well, but they'll never compare to Ninjas. There isn't a SINGLE improvement that they could give us to make a difference; there isn't a single job ability they could come up with that equals the ability to completely avoid damage. What's the point in handing a man with a unicycle a bike when the man he's racing is in a car?
      Key point bolded but all qft. It all comes down to efficiency. If you don't like it, shell out the gil to be a blink tank. Every job has its place in this game, if you don't like PLD's place, why did you decide to play it?

      NIN75/RNG75/RDM75
      SMN66/COR66/WAR55/BRD55/DRK51

      Stephen King's Wizard and Glass: Fools are the only folk on earth absolutely guaranteed to get what they deserve.

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      • #4
        Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

        Originally posted by Intensity
        Key point bolded but all qft. It all comes down to efficiency. If you don't like it, shell out the gil to be a blink tank. Every job has its place in this game, if you don't like PLD's place, why did you decide to play it?
        Maybe it's because I don't feel a job should be defined by how much gil you have to put into it, or maybe I have a slight inclination to enjoy jobs that with a sword and shield combination? Either way, that question had no place in this thread.

        But of course, it isn't the Paladin's usual place to complain. It's everyday we eat punches, kicks, bombs, poisonous oats, stink eyes, and a myriad of other deadly abilities while taking the occasional death for the team without a single complaint. What happens when a Ninja or Black Mage are faced with the same problems? They complain and place the blame elsewhere.

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        • #5
          Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

          You know, one thing I don't get about the Ninja job is this: SE meant for it to be a support DD and when players turned it into some hulking beast that shrugs off damage like it's nothing and completely outshines the other jobs that were meant to tank, SE didn't have a problem. Instead of recognizing the problem for what it was they let it go and now that there are so many max lvl ninjas they can't just go in with their nerf bats swinging, it would kill the interest for so many players. I've got some hopes for the update, I know it won't be sunshine and roses, but hopefully it will breathe some life back into this job and we'll get to do some more things endgame other than bench warming.
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

            Well I am pretty neutral on the whole nin and pld debate. I find that each job fills its own niche. When I get a pt, I am totally neutral to whether its a pld or a nin. They each have their own set of issues that I have to deal with and I adjust accordingly. I certainly do not think that nin is godly nor do I think pld is useless. In my HNM, we have both and use both fairly equally. I have to say I pt more with plds and I also do more things like camping/bcnms and such with plds. This doesn't mean that this is what I prefer, it just happens to turn out this way.

            I think you just have to go out there and be the best that you can be. Study your job, learn it inside and out, apply yourself while playing (that means no afking/reading a book/watching tv/etc.) and I really think you'll show what the job can do and how well it can be done.
            Originally posted by Feba
            But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
            Originally posted by Taskmage
            God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
            Originally posted by DakAttack
            ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

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            • #7
              Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

              Hate control. After 50 lvl's of playing, Nin's, no matter how good, still have a hard time holding hate, especially with losing hate to loss of shadows. W/o a THF or /THF post 60 keeping the mob centered on them is incredibly difficult. Even in RNG hayday I still had a lot of trouble pulling hate off several PLD's I partied with. Is there an imbalance in xp situations? Yes. Is it insurmountable? No. If for no other reason than there are so few good NIN tanks, and since PLD's have to try harder, for the most part they're better at their job.
              What are your suggestions for decreasing the imbalance that doesn't involve drastically changing a job that so many people play and hitting them so hard with the nerf stick that they crap themselves?
              I RNG 75 I WAR 37 I NIN 38 I SAM 50 I Woodworking 92+2

              PSN: Caspian

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              • #8
                Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                i don't want ninjas to get nerfed! i like ninjas!

                boost the paladins, and give us a real 3rd tanking job. there's no reason to break my favorite tanking job in the game.


                ionia of Cait Sith! 75 RDM, 75 THF
                Plotting World Domination and doing silly emotes on a server probably not near you!
                I live to entertain!

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                • #9
                  Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                  did you all forget?
                  http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...06.report.html
                  pld

                  acknowledge that pld might take second seat to nin, make more appealing for pld to be first choice for tanking
                  auto-refresh
                  making ability to use shield more ofthen that other jobs (blocking)
                  more TP gained from shield block
                  "They're working on it"

                  Thanks Yyg!

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                  • #10
                    Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                    Originally posted by Impaction
                    But of course, it isn't the Paladin's usual place to complain. It's everyday we eat punches, kicks, bombs, poisonous oats, stink eyes, and a myriad of other deadly abilities while taking the occasional death for the team without a single complaint. What happens when a Ninja or Black Mage are faced with the same problems? They complain and place the blame elsewhere.
                    Oh man, I major LOL'd on this. Paladins never complain?? I can't tell you how many times I had to listen to a PLD bytch about needing a refresher before we can exp. "No BRD's tho, BRD's suck." usually follows directly after. Paladins don't complain? You just made on of the biggest posts I've seen in months on these boards and guess what the entire thing consisted of?

                    Ninja's have nothing to complain about? What about keeping hate? Paladins are the (self-proclaimed) Hate machines. That's a key point to being a tank. But Ninja's don't bytch at SE about not having enough hate keeping abilities. We deal. We improvise.

                    And gil defines the Ninja Job? Have you ever played Ninja passed 40? Do you realize how fucking BUSY that job is? You say Ninja's require no skill. I say that's bullshit. I say Paladins require no skill. My reasoning is this. As per your OP, in order for a Paladin to work, every other job in the PT has to be on it. Refresher gotta cycle you in to the cycle, WHM has to stay on it with Cures and Erases, backup vokers have to be paying attention. With Ninja's, as long as the NINJA is on it, the rest of the PT can work less for more exp. If a Ninja's shadows are gone, we can get one shotted by one critical hit depending on the mob. Again, we don't complain to SE about how much better DEF PLD's have. We work around it.

                    Paladin is simple. Provoke, Flash, Cure, rinse and repeat. Ninja's have to count shadows, pay attention and know the timing of a Mobs swings. They have to keep an eye on when Kurayami and Hojo drop. We have to manage hate with the PT. Paladins just have to stand there and spam their Cures.

                    You wanna bitch about refresh? Level cooking or keep Yag drinks on you. You wanna bytch about taking damage? That's what a Paladin DOES. As I said, you can't tell me you didn't know a Paladins role and abilities in the game when you started playing it. First Dragoon, now this. Seems to me you just pick Jobs to play so you can bytch about how opressed you are compared to others.

                    NIN75/RNG75/RDM75
                    SMN66/COR66/WAR55/BRD55/DRK51

                    Stephen King's Wizard and Glass: Fools are the only folk on earth absolutely guaranteed to get what they deserve.

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                    • #11
                      Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                      Originally posted by aegina
                      i don't want ninjas to get nerfed! i like ninjas!

                      boost the paladins, and give us a real 3rd tanking job. there's no reason to break my favorite tanking job in the game.
                      Agreed.

                      I've had parties with paladin tanks that had virtually no downtime and were chain machines. I don't think paladins are underpowered so much as they're underplayed and underappreciated.

                      And I know I've stated this over and over, but I always prefer a paladin tank because I know what I'm going to get. Sure they require more support from the rest of the party, but from party to party, player to player I get much more consistent performance from paladins than I do from ninja. Simply put, ninja is a job that requires a great deal of skill and money to play to its fullest potential, and most players lack the skill or are unwilling to invest the money to be more than a sucky tank.

                      I've had far too many parties go to hell in a handbasket because the ninja
                      • is completely unable to hold hate, usually related to
                      • refusing to cast debuffs or the wheel out of ignorance or just being cheap, or often
                      • doesn't use any food for same reasons
                      • doesn't know how to time Utsusemi: Ichi to get it through (always blamed on someone else)
                      • is a self-centered prick who uses Mijin Gakure and leaves the rest of the party to die (had this happen multiple times)
                      I think it's partly related to the type of people that are attracted to each job. The "knightly" themes of service and self-sacrifice are inherent in the paladin job, whereas I think a lot of people playing ninja now are doing it because its the latest inbalance and are more interested in achieving power for their own sake than what they can do for others. Please don't be offended if this doesn't apply to you, obviously these are broad generalizations based on my own sample of experience.

                      I have had one party with an excellent ninja who coordinated debuffs with me, used the wheel, held hate and kept shadows up masterfully, took credit for his own death and took it in stride. We chained VoS raptors to extinction at 56-57. I will grant that THAT ninja may have surpassed what a paladin could have possibly achieved, but that ninja posessed a combination of skill, money, and maturity that I have never again seen align.

                      Double Post Edited:
                      Originally posted by Intensity
                      As per your OP, in order for a Paladin to work, every other job in the PT has to be on it. Refresher gotta cycle you in to the cycle, WHM has to stay on it with Cures and Erases, backup vokers have to be paying attention. With Ninja's, as long as the NINJA is on it, the rest of the PT can work less for more exp.
                      And THAT is precisely why I believe ninjas are the more popular tank right now. Not because they're better by nature, but because if you get a good ninja the rest of the party can be lazy.

                      Double Post Edited:
                      Dug up the guys name to give him credit. Midget on Lakshmi is the best ninja I've ever seen.
                      Last edited by Taskmage; 03-23-2006, 09:09 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
                      lagolakshmi on Guildwork :: Lago Aletheia on Lodestone

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                      • #12
                        Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                        As far as I can read... this isnt a NIN vs PLD thread. The OP seems to be expressing his frustration for a job that been broken and ignored since NIN became a tank and the recent ideas of auto refresh are just a slap in the face for what needs to be done. So why dont you stop jumping all over him for it...



                        Originally posted by Intensity
                        We deal. We improvise.
                        Im sorry... did I miss the Playonline news where you were elected the NIN spokesman?

                        Cause as far as I know, there is nothing NIN need to improvise for. SE made plenty of equipment for NIN to keep hate. So the only thing NINs deal with is shoving out the gil or being in the right LS.

                        And once you actually get to the end game equipment and armor, youll find keeping hate as a NIN is a joke. Yeah, thats right... when SE acknowledged that NIN was never meant to be a tank a while back... what did they do? They implimented more equipment for them with enmity +. And any NIN with the ideal setup is just a speed demon DD blink tank that keeps hate just as good as a PLD.

                        You dont need to level NIN past 40 for know this... its common knowledge.

                        Originally posted by Taskmage
                        Sure they require more support from the rest of the party,
                        Thats exactly why PLDs are not used. They slow down the PT by sucking MP when NIN only need a few buffs and the maybe a heal now and then when they get caught with an AoE.

                        75 BLU | THF | PLD


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                        • #13
                          Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                          The OP raises some good points and I agree with the assessment that NIN is just flat out the preferred tank in EXP in most cases. As to why that is I pose to you all this question....

                          What is the max EXP per hour you have achieved with a PLD/WAR tank?

                          What is the max EXP per hour you have achieved with a NIN/WAR tank?

                          For me the answers to these questions are the sole reason why ppl tend to want a NIN tank. (10k+ per hour with NIN tank, and I have NEVER broken 6k per with a PLD/WAR tank).

                          I think SE needs to do something to make PLDs more self-sufficient as a tank or at least something so they don't slow down chains. It is completely unfair that I can go into sky and get chain 30+ on weapons as a NIN and a PLD could probably only equal that feat by subbing NIN and leeching along with a spam pt.

                          The other main issue I have with PLD tanks is damage output. As a NIN tank, especially post 65 I am typically not far behind the standard DDs in an exp pt in damage output. On the other hand a typical PLD tank is lucky if he can deal 5-8% of total damage per mob. This is a big part of the reason why a NIN tank pt can chain faster- the tank is also a DD.
                          Sky:O Sea:O Koga: 3/5 Melee: 1/5
                          http://manapool-ls.com - Bahamut Endgame LS

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                          • #14
                            Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                            There was one new JA that someone mentioned in the pld forums that I had considered myself to be the best possible improvement to plds and thats Runic. Basically it would convert all damamge you take for a very short time into mp. Now if they made that a JA with a 5 minute timer it could very feasibly be possible for a pld in a decent party not require a refresher since every 3 or 4th fight (depending on the speed of your kills) would potentially refill his or her mp a fair amount.
                            It is already possible to get by without a refresher if the pld has cooking lvl and is willing to cart around 10 inv slots worth of juice materials but thats a rarity. Nin can be good tanks yes but pld can tank just fine as well. For me the only real problem with plds is that they require certain jobs in order to function properly like the OP said. I think the runic JA would help with that but we'd still need help with debuffs and back up healing. Thats not a very hard task and any good whm will happily do so.


                            36 War/15 Mnk/22 Thf/62 Pld/Bst 75/Nin 33/Whm 36/Blm 19/Cor 7
                            Full Af X2 • Rank 8 • Alchemy 65

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                            • #15
                              Re: SE and their beloved Ninjas

                              Originally posted by Intensity
                              As I said, you can't tell me you didn't know a Paladins role and abilities in the game when you started playing it. First Dragoon, now this. Seems to me you just pick Jobs to play so you can bytch about how opressed you are compared to others.
                              qft

                              this topic is so beat to death its not even funny anymore.
                              as Kirk once said (he was a ninja that used to post very often in the nin forums here) paraphrasing: To blink tank is not just to count shadows and mash macros, imagine every 3-4 attack arounds that every piece of armor you wear automatically unequips itself. until you understand this, you will never understand what it takes to blink tank.
                              Omni@Remora: NIN75 RNG75 MNK75 COR75 BST64 BRD53
                              ♪♫ San d'Oria Complete ♪♫ ZM Complete ♪♫ CoP Complete ♪♫ AM Complete ♪♫

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