Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

[Armando]

Something's been bothering lately and I haven't been able to find a very conclusive answer lately. There's two ways to calculate the delay reduction on Dual Weild (for simplicity, Dual Weild I) - [Delay] x 0.90 OR [Delay] / 1.10. I understand the difference is marginal, but which is the correct method? Apple Pie used to use the first one when he posted, but those posts were a LONG time ago.

[bside]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

Something's been bothering lately and I haven't been able to find a very conclusive answer lately. There's two ways to calculate the delay reduction on Dual Weild (for simplicity, Dual Weild I) - [Delay] x 0.90 OR [Delay] / 1.10. I understand the difference is marginal, but which is the correct method? Apple Pie used to use the first one when he posted, but those posts were a LONG time ago.

the first one still is correct.

[Armando]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

Ok, thank you ^^

[Armando]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

I hate double posting, but now I have a doubt...when dealing with larger haste ammounts, both methods give VERY different answers. When dealing with Dual Weild IV (35% "haste") and using 227 delay katana, I get 147 delay with the first method (and the game won't allow any weapon to have a delay lower than 150) while the second method gives me 168 delay. Do Ninjas really attack like they're dualweilding Hornetneedles at 75? This strikes me as a little bit odd...While we're on the subject, I understand that Dual Weild haste is different from normal Haste in that Dual Weild is simply a reduction of Delay. Does Haste (the spell) allow you to go faster than 150 Delay? Would a THF with a Hornetneedle attack faster with Haste cast on him/her? I'm guessing the answer is yes, because otherwise, what would be the point of Haste on NIN? And what about Haste equipment? Will it also increase your speed past 150 Delay, and does it affect recast timers?

[Omni]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

you need to add both delays together. not just take 1 of them.

so if you have two 227 delay katanas, the delay you plug into the formula would be 454.

454 x .65 = 295.1 effective delay.
if you only have 1 weapon, dual wield does not take effect obviously. with haste spell and other equipment, it does speed things up, however with haste spells/songs/equip it doesnt just affect your attack speed but it also affects other things such as recast timers on spells.

if you have a rdm and brd in your pt, ask for haste + dual march songs. thats cuts your delay down to almost nothing. really fun stuff!

[Armando]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

Adding their delays isn't practical because sometimes the sum of two weapons's Delays can exceed 480, and then a different, slower TP formula would apply. I'm pretty sure TP is calculated separately for each weapon. However, after doing some research, I've found most of the answers I was looking for - Haste DOES increase you even with 150 Delay weapons; found some old Apple Pie posts testing the recast reductions on Fast Casts, Haste Belts, Haste, and March...also did a bit of experimenting to confirm some of these things. I'm also pretty sure now that you do indeed multiply, which means that with Dual Weild III NINs do indeed swing as if they had Hornetneedles. Haven't had a chance to test this in-game but all the posts I've found seem to point to this as the correct method. One of these days I'll cut down Utsusemi: Ichi's delay to 15 seconds for fun ;3 Even though I found most of the answers out myself in the long run though, I still appreciate your reply.

[Last_Viper]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

i`m a bit late

we tested out the haste effect on 2 weapons with 150 delay i guess, and yes it was faster.

but i can asked again which weapons were used if you want.

tested with thf75/nin37
TP is calculated for each weapon, yes. it`s based on the delay, higher delay more TP, lower delay less TP but TP never goes under 5% per swing, so with fully hasted you can reach 100TP faster.

[Omni]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

Adding their delays isn't practical because sometimes the sum of two weapons's Delays can exceed 480, and then a different, slower TP formula would apply. I'm pretty sure TP is calculated separately for each weapon. However, after doing some research, I've found most of the answers I was looking for - Haste DOES increase you even with 150 Delay weapons; found some old Apple Pie posts testing the recast reductions on Fast Casts, Haste Belts, Haste, and March...also did a bit of experimenting to confirm some of these things. I'm also pretty sure now that you do indeed multiply, which means that with Dual Weild III NINs do indeed swing as if they had Hornetneedles. Haven't had a chance to test this in-game but all the posts I've found seem to point to this as the correct method. One of these days I'll cut down Utsusemi: Ichi's delay to 15 seconds for fun ;3 Even though I found most of the answers out myself in the long run though, I still appreciate your reply.

yes. tp calculation is for each weapon, however, the speed at which you attack has nothing to do with tp. so dual wield does not affect tp calculations, which is the same with march, and haste buffs. they speed up your attack rate but do not decrease your tp gain per hit.
.......

>< cant think right now, will post more later.

[Armando]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

March and Haste speed you up without lowering your TP. Dual Weild, on the other hand, isn't like Haste or March - it essentially reduces your Delay, and reduces TP proportionately to it.

Last Viper, thanks for the reply ^^ I tested it with my girlfriend's Beestinger too, there was a 15% reduction in Delay.

[Omni]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

dual wield reduces your tp? are you sure about that? i have always gained 5 tp per strike throughout all my nin leveling when using katanas. at lvl 10 and at lvl 75, 10 tp per attack turn when both hits land.

[Caspian]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

5TP is the minimum return for all weapons. No matter how low your delay goes, your TP return will never go below 5 per strike. However, dual wielding axes, your TP return will be less than if you were single wielding and hit two rounds.

[Omni]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

oh hmm, i didnt think about using a higher delay weapon. hmm, i'll have to try that out.

[Armando]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

My thoughts on Dual Weild (I) from a WAR/NIN point of view: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52568

Unless Dual Weild is pushing the Delay of your weapon under 180, it's not doing anything for your TP. Of course, exceptions are weapons with high ammounts of +Accuracy on them (Viking Axe) and weapons with built-in multi-hit traits. Even so, TP would come faster single-weilding the multi-hit weapon than dual-weilding it with a weapon that doesn't multi-hit, since the multi-hit weapon is essentially attacking just a bit over half as much as if it were single-weilded. Something similar occurs with Hornetneedle (150 Delay.) The game won't allow Dual Weild to reduce Delay past 150, so if the off-handed weapon's reduced Delay is more than 150, then their combined Delay would be more than 300, which is slower than two Hornetneedle swings. And yes, I did test it out myself on my PLD job (my WAR is retired so I didn't have a pair of axes handy.) A quick way to test it is to single-weild, attack 10 times, subtract 2 from your TP for each time you got hit, then divide your TP by 10. That gives you your TP per hit. Repeat while dual-weilding (make sure the delays are equal!) It should be done with Dual Weild II or less, with swords or axes, so as not to end up with delays lower than 180.

EDIT: Oh yeah. A 75 MNK friend who has NIN up to 37 helped me test which calculation method is correct. I had him Dual Weild two Bouncer Clubs (264 Delay.) Method one should've reduced the club's delay as such: 264 x 0.85 = 224, which would return 6.03 TP per hit (60 TP over the course of 10 hits.) The second method would've reduced its Delay as such: 264/1.15 = 229 (decimal was dropped) which would return 6.14 TP per hit (61 over the course of 10 hits.) After smacking a gob ten times, his total TP was 60. Which means that a 75 NIN with Dual Weild III (35% Haste) will push any of their 227 or 232 Delay Katanas to 150 Delay, which is like Dual-weilding hornetneedles. It also means the 5% DW "haste" on suppanomimi goes to waste for them. I'm kind of intrigued (and at the same time almost a bit appalled) at the fact that a 65+ NIN with katanas swings at 300 Delay. Omni-Ragnarok, according to your info, you're a 75 NIN. Would you be so kind as to record the number of times you swing over a 2 or 3-minute period using weak 227 Delay katanas? For better control, draw your weapons from a distance, and start a timer (be it /wait 60 macros or a stopwatch) as soon as you get close to the mob and do the initial swings. That'd be greatly appreciated.

[Last_Viper]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

easy way to test, 2 people
1 nin get him 2 daggers 150 delay
1 whatever 2 dagger 150 delay (but subjob nin ith DW I only)

otherwise the macro methode is a good thing to test it solo

dagger like, platoon dagger, beastinger, hornetneedle will work

you can do the same with TP calculation, yust need a tank holding hate all over your records
DW I will give you no haste effect, so the test should be easy. get sure the ???/nin hast only DW I and the NIN/??? hast DW II+

wasen`t able to test this bcause i haven`t been at home ^^

about the TP gein per swing, you can check somepage, they have TP per swing for each weapon

[Armando]

Re: Correct DW delay reduction calculation?

Well, I already know a NIN with two 150 delay weapons won't get any faster The point is to test if Dual Weild III can really make 227 Delay weapons swing as fast as two 150 Delay weapons. Oh yeah - if anyone's going to do the test for me, please take off Suppanomimi...it's not necessary to make 227 Delay katanas reach 150 Delay according to the first way of doing the math, so all it would do is make the second way give results closer to 150 Delay too and make it harder to compare.

EDIT: Oh yeah, no Dual Weild-enhancing AF pieces, either.