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  • Mages vs Melee

    I'm not sure what it's like on other servers, but on Seraph there's always an abundance of melee seeking over mages. What's odd is that the combined mages; Whm, Rdm, Blm, Brd, Smn; always out-total the combined whether they're seeking or not. I find it extremely concerning that at any given time we'll have more mages than melee playing, but more melee than mages seeking.

    The allure of being a mage job just isn't as appealing as melee. Wearing cloth, casting the same spells over and over, standing in the back. They're all support jobs no matter how you see it. Melee get to swing big weapons, stylish armor, and be right there in the front throwing down huge and flashy weapon skills.

    If that's not bad enough, there's only five caster jobs total. White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, Summoner, Bard are all you have to choose from, and they're almost always pigeon holed into healing. I don't consider Paladins or Dark Knights to be casters because their main role is to melee. Niether of them can reliably heal or nuke. When we look at the melee jobs we're basically seeing the same job over and over that reaches their damage dealer role differently. Dragoons are mostly DoT, with few semi-strong weapon skills. Thieves are weak while building TP, but can throw out strong weapon skills to make up for it. Monks fight just as well as they throw out weapon skills.

    What am I getting at? Diverse mage jobs would attract more people. Currently the only way to heal is to cast Cure, the only way to nuke is to cast an elemental spell. How many people really see that as interesting, fun, exciting? My enjoyment while playing Dragoon in a party is unparalleled, but I can't say the same about mages. All our jobs are repetitive, but to a lesser extent, and melee aren't all the same.

    Let me say quickly, that most of my ideas would require magic type weapon skills. Healing and other spells would build up TP, and your Healing or Elemental skill would have a "weapon skill" as well. I'll explain more later, it's something similar to how only Rangers have a ranged weapon skills and you must sub it to use it with other jobs.

    Imagine an elemental job similar to Black Mage where the player could summon weapons, each having an elemental attribute, each with an en-spell. It's basically fighting with an elemental attribute, but then they would have magic that instead of just nuking the weapons would pull off an attack that would magic burst if used right. We're reaching the same goal, but a little differently.

    Now imaging about what I said earlier, "magic" weapon skills. Elemental magic would build a Blm's TP as he nuked. Once full he'd be able to use his own weapon skill that would basically be the same as a nuke, but with a fancy animation. It's still the same thing, but a little flashier, and that's all players want. White Mages could built TP as they heal, then have access to healing weapon skills or damaging ones. Their first one could be something like Regenga, the second could be an erasega that erases one minor ailment, the third could be a holy hammer that falls upon enemies that could MB on a light skillchain.


    No doubt my ideas are way out there, and incomplete at best, but my point is still clear. We need a lot more mage diversity, which is basically reaching the same goal through different means. Does anybody else know what I mean?

  • #2
    Re: Mages vs Melee

    For a while now I've wished doing Enfeebling or Elemental damage would build TP. But I say this as a RDM who's done some soloing. So if I could get some extra TP to help me with my Sword skill, and Elvaan DEX to build more TP.

    But I never thought it out to the extent that you just have. It's not a bad notion honestly, but I don't think it would draw any more people these jobs honestly.

    There's just a different mind set required to be a professional mage. Meanwhile everybody has a mean/violent streak that makes hacking away at something with a giant weapon appealing.
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    • #3
      Re: Mages vs Melee

      Originally posted by tdh
      For a while now I've wished doing Enfeebling or Elemental damage would build TP. But I say this as a RDM who's done some soloing. So if I could get some extra TP to help me with my Sword skill, and Elvaan DEX to build more TP.

      But I never thought it out to the extent that you just have. It's not a bad notion honestly, but I don't think it would draw any more people these jobs honestly.

      There's just a different mind set required to be a professional mage. Meanwhile everybody has a mean/violent streak that makes hacking away at something with a giant weapon appealing.
      No. If anything, RDMs should be nerfed. -_-

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      • #4
        Re: Mages vs Melee

        Lol no jobs should be nerfed. I just think each job can be improved. Melee and mage both have their qualities and weaknesses. Melee can do continious damage without requiring mp so can do it forever. Mages can do stuff melees can't do for party usually like buffs, heals (paladin & rdm are line between melee/mage), and do great damage with spells.
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        • #5
          Re: Mages vs Melee

          i think this is a great idea, it would give an extra dimension to mage jobs other than fixating your eyeballs on health meters or waiting for a renkei. how to implement this into the game is a whole other issue but the idea is something worth considering. considering that mages are able to cast more spells in the same amount of time a melee takes to get to 100% tp, the benefit of a magic ws needs to be carefully chosen. else, that would totally tip the balance where you can have a whm in the back spamming bar spells to raise tp to 100% extremely fast to cast some kick ass magic ws.

          whether or not this idea is feasible, i look forward to what they have in store for us with the new expansion. in the sage sundi interview (or was it the texas event one? i get them mixed up) he touched upon the fact that they will introduce new features that will change the way we play the game entirely. giving jobs a whole other dimension would be great so as impaction said, certain jobs are not pigeon holed into doing the same, repetitive thing over and over again.
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          • #6
            Re: Mages vs Melee

            Originally posted by Impaction
            I'm not sure what it's like on other servers, but on Seraph there's always an abundance of melee seeking over mages. What's odd is that the combined mages; Whm, Rdm, Blm, Brd, Smn; always out-total the combined whether they're seeking or not. I find it extremely concerning that at any given time we'll have more mages than melee playing, but more melee than mages seeking.
            I noticed that too, way back when. Each census confirmed it. I assumed they were /anon, but couldn't imagine why. Anyway. A Lot of what you see as a con for mages I'd see as a pro. We repeat the same actions over and over, yes, but we are constantly acting and making decisions. Timing, rythm, and coordination with other mages matters. BLM, RDM, and SMN each has a great deal of diversity in what they are capable of.

            Melee I see as mostly auto-attack+AFK. That's a really bad over simplification, I know. But when I see a MNK or DRG I wonder if they're even looking at the screen half the time. When a THF was in the party I could tell if the other guy was used to watching TV as he played. I prefer controlled DPS.

            Imagine an elemental job similar to Black Mage where the player could summon weapons, each having an elemental attribute, each with an en-spell. It's basically fighting with an elemental attribute, but then they would have magic that instead of just nuking the weapons would pull off an attack that would magic burst if used right. We're reaching the same goal, but a little differently.
            This is called Summoner.

            Let me say quickly, that most of my ideas would require magic type weapon skills. Healing and other spells would build up TP, and your Healing or Elemental skill would have a "weapon skill" as well. I'll explain more later, it's something similar to how only Rangers have a ranged weapon skills and you must sub it to use it with other jobs.

            ...

            Now imaging about what I said earlier, "magic" weapon skills. Elemental magic would build a Blm's TP as he nuked. Once full he'd be able to use his own weapon skill that would basically be the same as a nuke, but with a fancy animation. It's still the same thing, but a little flashier, and that's all players want. White Mages could built TP as they heal, then have access to healing weapon skills or damaging ones. Their first one could be something like Regenga, the second could be an erasega that erases one minor ailment, the third could be a holy hammer that falls upon enemies that could MB on a light skillchain.
            That kind of gameplay would indeed rock, but I don't expect it'd be possible to install that into FFXI as it is now. It's more of a thing to ask for in the next generation of MMOGs. Final Fantasy XI-2: Kaede grows up, puts on some short shorts, and goes on "Crystal Hunting" missions with her Linkshell, lol.

            Anyway, Vanguard is attempting to get out of the "click button, cast spell" gameplay for casters and trying to create fundamental differences between the way different casters operate. One will use mana, the other chi, and chi will be more than mana with another name for example. Vanguard is doing the same for melee and tanks too. I hope they succeed.

            No doubt my ideas are way out there, and incomplete at best, but my point is still clear. We need a lot more mage diversity, which is basically reaching the same goal through different means. Does anybody else know what I mean?
            I disagree. (Big surprise, I know.)

            When you have fewer classes you can make each play much differently than the others. Looking at WoW, Rogues play very differently from Warriors, who play differently than Paladins even though they are all melee classes. For FFXI melee WAR, DRG, MNK and DRK play almost the same. THF is unique. SAM and RNG play similarly as they each have a TP building JA. There are two tanks, NIN and PLD, and they are a world apart for game play.

            There are three full support mages and each plays differently. Potentially two nukers, both with enormous versatility I add. So far, diverse. But the two healers are nearly identical. I can agree with you on that. RDM has more versatility than WHM and usually works as a supporter rather than as a healer. I don’t know how many WHM embraced the affect Banish has on undead, utilize Flash effectively, experiment with BRD sub, or even maintain Haste, but I bet it’s fewer than those who just cast Regen and Cure until there’s a status effect to cleanse. It’s like that for a reason, Square needs to keep the jobs true to Final Fantasy tradition. Of course, now that they’ve dispensed with the bulk of FF jobs they are free to brainstorm new ones.

            I wonder why it is you want more people to play mages. To increase availability of mage utilities like Dispel or Refresh? Making more mage jobs will not attract more players to play a mage. You already stated what makes players more attracted to melee classes. No one wants to be fragile, armor looks cooler than cloth, and it's way more visceral to cleave the opponent in half with a greatsword than it is to wave your hands around and have rocks fall on his head.

            So just give abilities that are usually mage turf and hand them over to melee classes. Make a high DPS melee class with a "cool" and unique weapon class, and stylish AF armor, and give it auras. Accuracy up, Refresh, the rest can be filler for the purposes of this post. Dispel draws lots of hate. Make a tank job, let's say "Mystic Knight", with a 45 second recast Dispel JA, call it "Spell Breaker" maybe. They need other hate abilities and a form of damage mitigation but that's not here or there.
            Last edited by Coinspinner; 01-05-2006, 09:05 PM. Reason: spelling ><:

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            • #7
              Re: Mages vs Melee

              !!!

              So i'm not the only crazy dude out there...

              I quote you Impaction, i'd love those additions , i would like to melee even as a mage ; ;, it's boring to sit down all day -.-
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              • #8
                Re: Mages vs Melee

                For FFXI melee WAR, DRG, MNK and DRK play almost the same. THF is unique. SAM and RNG play similarly as they each have a TP building JA. There are two tanks, NIN and PLD, and they are a world apart for game play.
                D: ....why cant the WAR tank..? >_> seriously..and i feel DRK is less an AFK job if they have to Stun and if more of them use Magic....i know its very common for people to think it will make them lose TP per swing tanks to that but that TP with magic idea might help alot...and it will also help a PLD pull out more spirit's within which WILL help(one of the best ways a PLD can help do that burst dmg).

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                • #9
                  Re: Mages vs Melee

                  WAR can tank, and I had successful PTs with WAR tanks in the 50s and 60s. When I excluded WAR from the tanks it is because most players don't like WAR tanks or won't give them a chance because of their low damage mitigation. And hence, most WARs are not equipped or skilled at tanking. (Mind you, I quit over a year ago now but I don't think this has changed.) If they are allowed/forced to tank, their style is also distinct until they get Ni.

                  On DRK, they have good magic. Tractor is out of battle and most WHM, RDM, and BLM will have it. So many don't skill up Enfeeble and can't Sleep. Stun is not useful for every mob though. Absorb is one cast during the pull. Drain if you are hurt, Aspir if you need MP. Still auto-attack and space out most of the time.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Mages vs Melee

                    A good DRK is always going to pay attention because Stun can be a life saver at any time. He or she should always be ready to cast it if the mages pull hate or if the PLD or NIN needs an extra second or two to get off a Cure or Shadows. In parties against Weapons and Goblins the DRK should be watching the chat-log like a hawk. Playing DRK well requires a bit more attention in most any circumstances because you usually are always watching for the perfect moment to use Souleater. Which means keeping a close eye on the damage done by everyone to judge your enmity.

                    I'm not saying DRK has quite the responability or 'busyness' aspect to it that most healers have, but among melees I think it ranks up there as one of the non-AFK jobs. Of-course a good player at any job is going to pay attention. MNK may be simple, but to be at their best they still need to be there. A well timed provoke to steal hate off of a near-dead Tank can save the day.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Mages vs Melee

                      Originally posted by Langolier
                      A good DRK is always going to pay attention....
                      And that says it all. The ratio difference of people that know how to play the job well to the people who just do what they can to get by is huge.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Mages vs Melee

                        Originally posted by TheGrandMom
                        And that says it all. The ratio difference of people that know how to play the job well to the people who just do what they can to get by is huge.
                        Yeah, so why call it broken if it's the players own ignorance that causes a jobs defect? So making it more complex is going to make them actually try? What kind of logic is that?

                        I got a bit lost on Impactions posts, the basics I could get out of it is he stated how Melee jobs are stuck out in the cold more often looking for a job while Mages don't have this problem. Then suddenly goes on with an idea to improve Mages more?

                        From his own attestament, it sounds like more ideas to make Melees more appealing to help remove this issue of Melee's seeking for a party for insaine amounts of time is more needed. I mean like he stated there are more Mages then Melee and yet more Melee looking for party? If that's the case something in there just doesn't sound right.

                        Don't know but I'm guessing I need an Impaction Translator, something about what he wrote seems off. Seems like two statements contradicting eachother.


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                        • #13
                          Re: Mages vs Melee

                          no basically what he was saying about the ratio is true. When you start trying to get parties at 50+. You could have like 30 mages on and 20 melee yet seeking you will have about 17-20 melee wanting parties but maybe only 2 mages seeking. The simple fact has come down to melee has to seek for parties while mages don't. Mages get blind invites because they are needed more than melee, the reason everyone views that is that tanks and melee if they arnt in a party or doing something have the seek flag up. I know rdms and whm who sit around no flag up waiting for the blind invite.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Mages vs Melee

                            i think the idea of having the blms and whm gain tp for other spells is an uber idea , as far as rdms and smn, have you ever watched rdms solo gods (only on video), and i pt with a smn and let me tell ya when we have a whm for main healing that guy rocks as a DD (nothing like doing distortion with carby and having the /blm summoner burst it ). What people need to do is start experimenting with pt set ups. I have been told by some older players that at one time mnks were tanking (and this was before nin tanks), counter and against VT mobs with like 3 mages healing but you get my point.

                            Either way i do like the idea of blms and whms gaining tp for some kinda cool....something with it.


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                            • #15
                              Re: Mages vs Melee

                              Originally posted by Impaction
                              The allure of being a mage job just isn't as appealing as melee. Wearing cloth, casting the same spells over and over, standing in the back. They're all support jobs no matter how you see it. Melee get to swing big weapons, stylish armor, and be right there in the front throwing down huge and flashy weapon skills.
                              Ha "casting the same spells over and over"

                              This is a lot different than the "provoke + attack + provoke + attack + berserk/defender + repeat" cycle.

                              I played WAR for a long time (got to level 26) and it caused me to quit the game. I came back as a WHM and haven't stopped playing since.

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