Mages vs Melee

[Macht]

Re: Mages vs Melee

no basically what he was saying about the ratio is true. When you start trying to get parties at 50+. You could have like 30 mages on and 20 melee yet seeking you will have about 17-20 melee wanting parties but maybe only 2 mages seeking. The simple fact has come down to melee has to seek for parties while mages don't. Mages get blind invites because they are needed more than melee, the reason everyone views that is that tanks and melee if they arnt in a party or doing something have the seek flag up. I know rdms and whm who sit around no flag up waiting for the blind invite.

If that is what he's saying then it still seems ill-logic to promote mage even more. It's like stating Melee is not good enough and should be just dropped off. The fact a mage could sit around and wait for a blind invite like that just proves more that mage jobs are already popular so why go promoting more for them, seems to kind of to off-balance it all doing that.

Kind of like before you know it you'll see parties form of only Tank and Mages is sort of what it seems to be promoted. Doesn't make sense to me, seems what would make more sense is promoting parties to work in more variety.

[Lmnop]

Re: Mages vs Melee

What he's saying is that there aren't enough mages. And there aren't enough mages because not as many people want to play backline (which he suggests a remedy to) and simply because there are too many melee jobs....

Oddly enough, i'm told WoW has the opposite problem. Only like 2 pure melee.

[Macht]

Re: Mages vs Melee

What he's saying is that there aren't enough mages. And there aren't enough mages because not as many people want to play backline (which he suggests a remedy to) and simply because there are too many melee jobs....

Oddly enough, i'm told WoW has the opposite problem. Only like 2 pure melee.

Aren't Enough?

Unless you are going with a party of 2 melee and 4 mages there is no way that there are not enough to make the melee demand minimal. Most general parties is a 3 melee and 3 mage setup with some having a 4 melee and 2 mage setup. So a 1:1 or 1 Mage to 2 Melee ratio.

Yet the stats of players active shows to have something of 1.5 Mages to 1 Melee it's inversed to what the ratio of needed Mage to Melee would be. Ofcourse with the Mana Burn parties that skewers the ratio as well. I doubt you can attribute the issue of Melee's seeking for a party solely on a statement that there are not enough Mages.

[Sevv]

Re: Mages vs Melee

Ya there is no way there is not enough mages they always seem to be doing other things to get spells or avatars or etc. (fill in the blank) i mean there are tons of them out there trust me, its just that a melee mentality is must lvl must lvl. when a mage tends to have to collect spells thu quests etc or dish out serious gil.

[Aeni]

Re: Mages vs Melee

Every activity in this game requires a mage. A skill up party? Need mages. AF hunting? Need mages. HNM hunting? Depending on what kind of HNM/NM, probably a lot of mages.

Then, add this to what is needed for an exp party.

Every time I look at almost every level, there are not enough mages available. For anything. You can do a quick /sea inv ??-?? and find that the number of mages LFP is outnumbered by the number of (non tanking) melee LFP (2-3:1) Some nights, I could see 4 NINs seeking 70-72, 4 PLDs and no WHM and no BLM. Maybe 1 RDM. A couple of SMNs with this comment: Main Healing No Thanks. You look on the melee side and see maybe 3 DRKs, 4 BSTs, 5 WARs, a couple of MNKs, 3 THFs and a DRG or two and a SAM.

You do a /sea all whm-rdm-brd-blm 70-72 and see a total of 40-50 of them all partied and in places where you'd normally do not exp.

In the next expansion, I better not see a new melee of any type unless it's a tank and a tank that is meant to tank just by job abilities alone. More mages, support or otherwise. BUT NO MORE MELEE.

[Karinya]

Re: Mages vs Melee

There's a difference between the number of jobs, and the number of players in the jobs. Far less than 1/15 of players play bard, and it sure isn't because they're afraid they won't be able to find parties.

I think before you propose ideas to make mages "more fun" and appealing to more players, you should try playing one. Mage gameplay is already more varied and interesting than melee - if you know what you're doing, anyway.

Non-pulling physical damage dealer is the simplest and most boring job in the game. Wait for monster to arrive in camp, stand in the right place, turn on auto attack, wait until you have TP to report. No wonder they obsess about their gear so much: it's not really like they have a lot of room to improve their tactics. Knowledge of the monster does them little good either. And when they watch their character miss, they have nothing to do until they watch their character swing again, and possibly miss again, how frustrating. That and the fact that TP is the only fun they get to have probably go a long way toward explaining excessive +acc setups.

Now compare that to (my recollection of) a typical fight from my last exp party: puller announces incoming Kindred Summoner, with elemental. Stoneskin (you'll see why in a minute) and start Refresh and Haste before it arrives, Paralyze the summoner, see the elemental coming in (it comes in late because it tried to cast on the puller). Oh look, it's an unsleepable dark elemental. Silence it, Bind and move away, cast another Refresh and Haste, see if the melees are ready for SC yet. If they are, get ready to MB, otherwise a couple more enfeebles or rest depending on the situation. Bind wears off the dark elemental, but I can ignore it, it won't get through Stoneskin before the fight ends. (If Silence wore off, I'd have to recast or possibly be Aspired, which would suck.) The MB tonight is Asuran > Howling > SATA Sharkbite, so depending on mob HP, the chain position, MP availability and Convert timer, I may or may not want to double MB. Probably not on a SMN, they don't have much HP. Once it dies, recast any buffs that need it, help with post-battle Cures depending on my MP availability compared to the WHM's, then sit and see if I can squeeze in a tick of MP regen before the puller comes back with another one (probably not, we were moving pretty fast in that particular party).

That's on a monster with nothing worth Dispelling and with enough resistance to Aspir to make it basically pointless (although if it had an ice elemental, I could have Aspired that). On the other hand, most monsters don't have pets and there isn't always a 3-person SC, so it can be simpler than this too.

The point is, mages are doing a lot more than you might know already, at least the good ones; it is far from a boring job to play, and demands that you adapt your tactics to the mob and situation much more than a DD or even a tank has to. Why DD melee are so overpopular, I don't really know, but since mage jobs are already more complex and busy than DDs, I don't think that making them even *more* complex is going to help. And most mage jobs (especially BLM and RDM) really don't need to be any more powerful than they already are. WHM and BRD could stand to be a bit less pathetic at doing damage, to improve their solo ability, and SMN could really use some way to be a SMN more than once a minute, but other than that mages are fine.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Mages vs Melee

You're right, but over-simplifying legislated melee strategy. It can be a sophisticated business.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Mages vs Melee

You're right, but over-simplifying legislated melee strategy. It can be a sophisticated business.

The most sophiticated thing I have seen melee do is setting up for SATA, which if done improperly can kill a party member. Baring in mind that this for your typical play time (which excludes end-game for most people).

I have played my girlfriends warrior and monk. They are *yawn* borning. Provoke for SATA. Beat smash. Weaponskill. Provoke for SATA. Beat smash, participate in weaponskil. Beat smash, weaponskill, provoke off nin for ustusemi recast. PLD tank? Just beat-smash. That is the variation I have seen when I played MNK or WAR, and that I have seen her play. DRG is very much the same. Jump. Attack. Attack. Jump.

So yeah, I don't think its really all that over simplified for your basic DD. SAM perhaps has a little more sophistication, especially if a smart party has the SAM doing WS's with two people.

Thank works two ways. Your a PLD or your a NIN. You cure/flash/voke spam, or you ninjitsu spam. The order changes player by player with what works best, and there is still very little adaptation from mob to mob.

A really advanced DD/Tank might have two equipment swaps. I'm thinking of PLD here, who I have seen swap +enmity gear v. +Def gear, and darkstaff for healing. And of course the aformentioned SATA.

Bards have little variation, too. From bard to bard, mob to mob, the songs very rarely vary. The difference between an great bard and an excelent bard is timing and maybe various Etude useages.

SMN is more versitile still, in that that from party to party thier job changes more, but once in that party thier jobs rarely vary, and have little variation mob to mob.

Examples were already given for BLM, so here's another reason why WHM is busier/more productive. My job, party to party is always the same. However, it changes mob to mob. Exactly opposite of DD. And for WHM (and BLM) hate management is just as important - sometimes more important - than hate management from the tank. Especially with NIN tanks (say bye-bye to regular use of C3 and C4 pre-Crow). We are (more or less) obligated to haste one person (tank), though that changes mob to mob, MP permitting, to include all DD. RDM have enough on thier hands without hasting everyone.

Lets not forget having to manage MP. When do you Regen v. Cure to save MP? When do you Regen v. Cure to avoid hate? Two seperate issues same question, each with different answers depending on MP (do you have enough to stoneskin if you need to?). Heck, for that matter, do you have enough time to cast stoneskin? It takes a long time... long enough that a tank, especially nin, can go from white to red and die while you are puttering around saving your hide.

Sure DD have to time WSs and decide if you should save or not. But I think that pales considerably into the attention required by having to watch every casters MP in addition to everyone's health. Or divinding attention between chat log (status effects) and the little 3inch box.

And all of this changes depending on so many factors. Does the mob double attack? Forget casting any long spells. You don't have time. Do they AoE? Or god forbid spam AoEs for damage and status? You want a nerve wracking time try being main healer and having to choose hate management (curaga?) v. heath before next AoE (curing everyone individually takes time). Did the sleep stick on the link? Are you fighting crawlers near water or not? Oh crap, did the SMN use BP a min ago or 5 sec ago? Cause I can't /heal if he can't cure for 10seconds.

While a WHM doesn't have to know exactly how many seconds it will be until a pld can recast thier interupted Cure IV, or try again with a flash first, or how many shadows the NIN has left, or what thier Ni timer is at... a WHM -does- have to have a general feel (the less vauge the better) as to what every single party member is doing, and how they are fairing behind the scenes.

I've heard people chide me for saying that WHM is the most mind wracking job out there. But hell, I'll go so far to say that any mage job is.

Certainly, there's no doubt in my mind, that they have the most on-the-fly adapting to do.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Mages vs Melee

THF can mean a lot of equipment swapping, depending on how obsessed with min/maxing he is. There's also bolt/arrow usage for some jobs and pulling tactics for those that pull. Monk and Dragoon though... jeez. Well, monks can use the horrific Gprime Boost Macro to liven things up but Dragoons... jeez. :p

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Mages vs Melee

I'd like to reiterate that you're right, but I'll still offer a middle case.

Mob is pulled, note tank and mage position, Open the fight with high jump, engage, jump, swing. Get behind the mob, check berserk and warcry timers, wait for TP (give or take... 50 seconds). Provoke, hit WS macro, warcry if mob isn't turned, SC, fight's over.
Now, that WS macro is simple for me because I use a windower script to handle it. Just to clarify, my /war macro is 15 commands. 4 levels ago, it was 21 lines, but some new gear I've gotten integrates itself into both gear sets. If I wasn't using a script, that's four keystrokes (five if you warcry) to use a weapon skill. A while ago that was nine keystrokes to accomodate the extra gear.
To continue, you repeat that pattern every fight, like clockwork, for however long your party is there for. Not much judgment or contingency involved, but you should appreciate the intelligence that goes into performing that routine flawlessly with sound gear choice and clever macro use.
If it's an SC party with a /thf, that's one setup. WS burn's another, when you're /thf that's different. For WS burn it's mostly about rationing your jumps to stay alive. (which typically means you don't have them when you need them)
And you don't want to hear me talk about my /thf macros. My SA jump setup alone would melt your brain.

[Karinya]

Re: Mages vs Melee

Yeah, I was going to talk about the complexity of WHM, too, but my post was long enough and I don't have *that* much experience with WHM (only 43). Great post.

Bards have more variation than you seem to think, though. The right songs for a PLD tank are wrong for a NIN; THF and RNG benefit from different songs than other DD; threnody needs to match the SC; etc. And all of those have their own instruments. Sure, they can get invites by just singing ballad and madrigal, but that doesn't mean they're playing the job to its greatest effectiveness.

SDB's point is taken too - melee DD does get more complicated at higher levels where you have more gear and JAs to juggle. I've never played a DD above 60, so I haven't done that much combining the JAs of main and sub jobs - berserk SATA as THF/WAR is about it. It does take some thought to do well - both managing JA timers against each other and the exp chain, and managing different gear for different purposes.

Maybe, after all, there aren't any *really* simple jobs (to play well), just ones that look simple when you are playing something else? I still think that there is a complexity scale, though, with WHM, RDM and BRD at or near the high end, then tanks and maybe THF, and most physical DD near the bottom - not necessarily simple, but *relatively* simpler.

I don't really have an answer to how to address the imbalance between number of players that want to DD, number that want to tank and number that want to play mages/support jobs. It's a problem that has existed in all MMORPGs, and none (so far as I know) have successfully addressed it.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Mages vs Melee

Mm... pretty much.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Mages vs Melee

I still say basic melee is less diverse than basic magic... but once you get into Sky/HNM, i know its another story. Hearing my close friend talk about taking on Kirin and the like, it sounds insane, where everything has to be done 99.9% perfect of people die. Lots of people. She plays DRG, which I know are critical to Light SCs, and with rotating melee in and out of a party to sleep/TP+ I imagine it can get heckic for each player, to say nothing of organization

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Mages vs Melee

Only concession I wanted was that magery is typically more complex than melee, but that doesn't necessarily make melee simple.

[Langolier]

Re: Mages vs Melee

I don't find mage jobs that complex. I've played them myself a little and I've watched others play them.

I find they usually do the same thing I do, and the same thing every melee does.

They repeat patterns of macros over and over.

I can't stand playing mage jobs. They are boring. You don't even get good music to properly motivate you.

Mob comes in:

You stand up.

Cast neccessary buffs/debuffs.

/heal.

Watch mob HP or party HP.

At the proper time stand up again and cast Thunder IV to finish the mob off.

Repeat.

Ok, so two links came in...

Great. Stand up and cast Sleepga II. Boy, that was complex.

So everyone just got hit with MaxHP down...

Great, stand up, use Divine Veil and then cast Erase on yourself. Or if that's not up, cast Erase on the tank and then the nearest melee or yourself or whomever you need to.

It is not 'complex' to repeatedly cast Dia II and Shock on each mob. Nor is it that complex to cast Paralzye and Gravity and watch the BLM's and DRK's MP for Refresh.

My job isn't that complex either really. The only hard thing is Stunning certain abilities.

I wait for mob to come in...

I either Aspir the mob if I need MP or I cast an Absorb(s) depending on my TP situation. (if I'm /THF I cast both buffs for the WS)

Engage.

WS if it's an SC party. Or if it's a burn party I wait for one of the WAR's to WS and then I WS.

Keep the chain in mind, and if it's a high chain (4+) wait until the mob is about 35% and hit Souleater + Guillotine to try and finish it off.

The whole time I'm watching for "The Decorative Weapon readies Whirl of Rage." so I can Stun it.

I watch and if we get a link (and we're fighting Arcana) I activate Arcane Circle. (I might try Sleep II but it doesn't land)

TP-burn is pretty simple, much more simple than any SC party, but no matter what I'm probably even more glued to the chat log than your average mage because Stun is one of those hit and miss things. You either Stun the ability right then or you don't. Sleepga II, Whirl of Rage, Thundaga II, Bomb Toss, Nightmare... ect... are fairly quick and they can ruin your night.

Again melee often have at least as much equipment swapping as mages do.

It's just a pattern really of hovering over my Stun macro and then keeping track of timers.

While Berserk is up I typically get in 2-3 WS's.

Then for the next chain I use Last Resort + War Cry for the next WS or divide them up depending. Then Souleater on the next, then Berserk is up again and it repeats. If we're doing darkness I'm probably turning the mob for the THF and taking hits and then MBing Drain to get the HP back.