Why do people hate main healing?

[Kitalrez]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Going back to the original question, (because beat the dead RDM horse again is oh so entertaining), I don't think it's simply a case of whether or not we CAN play main healer, but more whether we SHOULD be main healer.

As a 52 SMN, I CAN play DD. By all accounts, the electric rat and my staff wielding self can merrily whack away at a mob until it dies. Granted, this takes about 20 minutes to actually kill anything, but it is physically possible. Any halfway sane player, however, is perfectly capable of seeing the flaw in this plan.

By this same logic, I can as a SMN play main healer. But I am doing this as a subbed job, and hold exactly the same skill in this area as a BLM/WHM trying to do the same role. If you're not going to invite the BLM into your party as main healer, why do I get shafted with that job? Think about it, the BLM has a similar mp pool, the same healing magic skill I do, and carries around the same staves. The reason you don't make him main healer is he's better able to help the party by doing something else.

This is not to say that I will not main heal, I have done so for the last 37 levels. But my original job was WHM, which is at 65 right now. So every second I spend main healing on SMN is a painfully obvious reminder of just how alien to my intended role this really is. I cap out at Cure III on SMN, so if the PLD gets hit with a Sickle Slash, he's pretty much boned for awhile. I've seen this, I know this, and it annoys me to no end.

My role within the party as a SMN is not main healer, any more than it is DD. Yes, I can whip out Fenrir and let him chew on the mob for a bit. And yes, I can cast a few good cure spells off my subbed WHM. But doing either of these takes me away from what I feel I should be doing in the party, SUPPORT. I'm not designed to kill the mob in one hit or pull the PLD from red to white hp in one spell, these are someone else's jobs. I'm here to buff the living daylights out of the party, or toss the occasional debuff onto the mob. Thanks to Hastega, Ecliptic Growl, Earthen Ward, and Lunar Cry, I do these things exceptionally well. My job is exactly the same as the BRDs, the only difference between us is that I spend most of my time in party regenning the mp I just burned to do that job instead of running around making pretty note graphics. I picked up this job with the idea that I wanted to play a support job, and someday I hope to be able to sub BRD or RDM and actually do that, rather than playing ghetto WHM. If helping you pointy-stick wielding morons to kill the mob 2-3 times faster is "leeching" exp, then count me among the leeches.

While I appreciate the fact I will someday be doing damage with bloodpacts, I am not one of the "OMG!! I'm gonna hit Aerns for 5k with Flaming Crush!! *fap fap fap*" crowd. Please let me do the job I was intended to do.

[aegina]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Why don’t people like to main heal? because it's boreing. some people like it, but it's boreing.

For my first job, I picked whm. I took it to lvl 24 before I quit. Why did I quit? Because you have no music, you don’t get to push buttons very often and you don't hit the mob. All you do is stand/sit on the back line and stare at the life bars. If you look away from the screen for an instant, the entire pt might die, including you. Its intense, but really really boreing.

So, for my next job, I picked rdm. I thought it was fun to get to hit the mob with your sword, and you have the battle music. when i hit 42 i quit the job because people complained when i hit the mob with my sword , but refreshing was still more fun than main healing. As a refresher, you are constantly busy. while main healing, you spend a lot of time not doing anything/waiting for someone to need to be cured...

The next job I picked was thf. Thf was a blast. You get to hit the mob, you get to hear the battle music, and you are much much MUCH more involved in the fight. I quit the healer jobs and so far, I have never looked back.

I know I’m not the only player like this. Most people don’t want to heal simply because they find it boreing. intense, white-knuckled boredom. It’s much more fun to hit/nuke the mob and be involved in the fight than it is to stand on the back line and watch for someone’s life to get low.

[Darkages]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Ok here is my two cent I think summoners and red mages dont like to b main healers because if someone dies it get blamed on the healer being a whm i should no i cure cure and cure and then they provoke with there health in red and then they die and then i get yelled at, because i didnt use cure 4 and saved him i gess they dont know how much cure 4 takes hate i would of been killed being a taru and all......

[aegina]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Ok here is my two cents worth. I think summoners and red mages often don't like to main heal because if someone dies, they might get blamed for it. i know i find it frustrating as a whm when i cure cure cure but someone dies anyways. it also annoys me when they blame me for the death, saying i should have used cure 4 to save him. it's like people don't understand that cure 4 draws a lot of hate and i'm just a taru... (edit: translated into english)

darkages has a point. sometimes players don't want to main heal or tank because they simply don't want the responsibility. if the monk screws up, no one dies, but if the tank forgets to provoke, or the healer misses a cure, people might get angry.

[Kairo]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Different people have different reasons for putting "NO MAIN HEAL", however many probably do it because of bad previous experiences with badly configured parties where a SMN or RDM had to take the responsibility of being main healer. My main job is RDM75 and I know well the frustrations of being in a badly configured party and being expected to fill the shoes of the main healer. In many cases people will look for SMN or RDM when a WHM isn't available because they know that in theory they can take the place of a WHM. However, sometimes they fail to take the differences into consideration and the result can be a lousy party setup. White Mage is inarguably the best healer in the game, however that doesn't necessarily mean a SMN or RDM can't successfully be the main healer. It comes down to where/what your fighting, the party setup and the party's competance. In some cases a SMN or RDM may even be more ideal than a WHM.

Another reason may be that people want to play their job for different reasons. A RDM can successfully take the place of a WHM but maybe they want to be the enfeebler and nuker rather than the main healer. The same goes for a SMN who may want to do damage with Avatars instead of being the main healer. You can argue that this job is more effective in this area than that area and so on but you really want to strike a balance between how you want to play the job and what will benefit the party the most.

My 25 cents.
Kairo

[locus]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Is there someone on this thread that claimed RDM should never sub WHM, locus, or are you just attacking a strawman? It certainly wasn't me, I pointed out the situational benefits of /WHM already.

Frankly, when you compare RDM/BLM to SMN/BLM, I start to suspect you're trolling. SMN doesn't have Cure III+IV regardless of what it subs. And I'm not sure if Conserve MP even affects bloodpacts.

Being the main healer is one of the situations where RDM/WHM is more likely to be appropriate; so is fighting a lot of AoE spammers, especially undead. The tangent on RDM subjobs was only incidentally related to the main thread topic, which may have confused you (especially when the same post discusses both). Nobody (that I can see) is pushing a dogmatic One True Subjob approach to RDM. Except maybe you.


I think RDM main healing is like WAR main tanking. It can be done, and even done well, if that person has the right subjob and gear for the job, and if party composition and tactics are adjusted appropriately, and if the party fights the right kinds of monsters; but that doesn't make it as effective as a specialist in that role, let alone more effective. And if the party doesn't make those adjustments, the party will do poorly, and often blame the person in an unconventional role.

My dear outsider, if you can't be bothered to read the entire thread, please don't comment on other people's posts. If you'd bothered to read the thread from the beginning, you'd know I've maintained that RDM is a utility job from the very start and that I'm fanatically opposed to people who say "Oh no, I won't ever sub whm and main heal, the proper way to play RDM is /BLM".

Let me recapitulate for you if you can't understand:

My position has always been that RDM gets cure spells as part and parcel of the job itself. Refusing to be able to main heal cure on a RDM job is about as amusing as that ninja I saw the other day with "Direct Damage only, Provoke: X" in his comment. Somewhere along the way, this got sidetracked into a "Red mage can only main cure when he has /whm" argument, which is not only incorrect, but caused people to attack the /whm sub as being "less effective" than a /blm sub. I do not agree with this.

And it's also incredibly amusing how afraid people are of being blamed for a tank's death - as if people are that quick to throw the blame around whenever something bad happens. I find people are generally much more constructive and intelligent than to engage in pointless "Your fault!" finger pointing just after a death in the party. I do think this excuse is just what it is - an excuse.

I know it's oh-so-boring to have to work through so much TEXT (yegads, yes I know that I'm too verbose.), but if you don't read it, how are you going to be able to insert your two cents in the correct slot?

edit: Perhaps the problem isn't Reading, but Comprehension. It might be a good idea to try to digest the context of a post before you attempt to summarize it. Nevertheless, please understand that if I appear hostile, that's because your post is hostile and inflammatory in nature, and yes, I am irritated.

Did you honestly expect me to be extremely congenial after you started throwing accusations of me being a troll around? I'm not a divinely forgiving person, I'm afraid.

More importantly: Can we stop with the Ad Hominem now? While I still have SOME respect for you?

[Goat]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Its not that ppl hate healing its they decide that its boring and some dont like to just sit there. But dont get me wrong im not on either side some times i like to sit there and other times i like to do some damage. Some ppl just dont like the burden and the responsibility

[Enialas]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Main healing is usually boring with hair raising moments. I've been in situations like last night in my Static party, where our tank had to leave and the person who had the highest def had to tank, a drg. against mandys in Yuhtunga we flew through them, and I'd level Divine Magic every 3rd to 5th Banish casting, we had a brd and w/ hmp foods we had some awesome skill chains.

When we tried to do gobs, Cure IIs just weren't cutting it and I had to resort to Cure IIIs, but 1 Cure III and the Goblin would charge me and it became Provoke > Cure III > Somone else Provokes > Cure III > etc. Since mandys became {Too Weak} but Goblins {Impossible to Gauge.} we moved on to Yhoter Jungle pretty early. However I was still left having to Benediction a couple of times.

If the healing capacity taxes a whm/blm brd/whm & blm/whm, i'd feel sorry for a rdm/whm that whould have had to "main heal" in that party

since spell scrolls just say what level you can use them at, but not tell you what the spell does and when you learn the spell, it tells you what it does but not what level you'd get it at, so I don't remember what level a rdm gets cure III. (of course for cure I don't need a description, maybe a soft cap , but regarding ninjas: except for Hojo and Uetsumi )

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Main heal? Hell yes! I love it. That's why I play a WHM. I get giggly on Lightsday for that extra little perk to healing. I'm leveling cloth and leather just so I can make my own Nobles/Blessed (more +Cure efficiency! <All Right!>).

Over 60 levels of WHM, and know where my RDM and SMN sit? 6 and 20 respectively. I managed to scrape through the dunes as SMN/BLM because I played mostly with my LS, but I really don't have any plans to take it further now that I'm done with Promy. Red mage? I might try, but I'll stop for the same reason I stopped SMN...

Main Healing. I've main healed for 60 levels. When I want to do that, I play WHM. When I play SMN I want to DD because thats what I enjoy. There's usually an extra melee in the party that is soloing WS's, and you would be surprised how many don't know you can SC with Blood Pacts. -.- If I ever level redmage, its because I want to Buff and Debuff, and ocasionally drop a nuke.

Whats wrong with that? I enjoy what I enjoy; and thats doing what the jobs are best at.

I tell people flat out that I very simply don't find Main Healing as SMN fun, and when I explain I have a 60 White Mage, they usually accept it even if they don't understand it. To each his own, I guess.

The catch of course is that yes, it is hard to find parties. I suppose that is the tradeoff to wanting to play against the grain. I for one have the patience for it, and still ocassionally play SMN/BLM. I have a blast skillchaining, spamming elemental magic (and not taking hate), and pulling from time to time.

One thing I learned early on though; if you aren't willing to compromise at least be polite about it. Some people will call you names, some people will just laugh. But in most cases, a simple explination is all it takes to get someone to offer you "Good Luck" before going off and finding another member.

*shrug*

[Darkages]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

OK how could someone like main healing when i do im stuck in noob partys that dont no how to get hate off me when i cast cure 2 and since im a taru whm and use mainly mp plus hp drain items i have 300 health soo i die in about 2-3 hits and ive died one a critacal first hit and they get pissed at me well **** them if they cant get a cure 2 hate off of me they desever to die......

[saige]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

i dont main heal as a rdm because im not trying to be a healer i would rather be a fighter and use en spells and stuff, its anoying to main heal as a rdm too because they dont have as much mp (befor 40) as a whm and its hard to ceep everyone healed and still get chains. and they also have lower mnd so they dont heal as much as a whm does.

[lionx]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Whatever happened to the RDM's flexibility of being able to Nuke, Heal along with Debuffing and Refreshing? ><

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Well as a rdm I can say that its not an easy feat to do all of those things. Not many people are up to the task. In an average pt with a rdm, whm, and blm or smn, I put them in order of importance. Debuffing > Refreshing > Healing > Nuking Debuffing and Refreshing are my main priorities. If I'm in the middle of my main duties, someone needs a cure and its not life threatening, then the other mage in the pt can pick up the slack. I mean how many times have you seen a blm resting with full or nearly full mp and the mob does a nasty aoe and he just keeps sitting? Anyone with curing abilities needs to pitch in but not many do.

I see it as EVERY mages job (and even the pld is there is one) to watch peoples hp's and cure if needed. Good example was a pt I was in last night. Nin, drg, war, rng, brd, and rdm (me). We had no set camp and were roaming and killing. This hampers being able to rest for mp so any chance I got to rest I took it. Well our drg thought it was a competition to prove he was a gread dd'er. Subsequently he was grabbing hate and getting raped. The pt was at nearly ful health, I debuffed the mob, the brd and I were refreshed, and then I sat. The brd had full mp (300mp). The drg took 2 hits and had 700+ hp. I figured one more hit and I would stand and cure. Well that last hit happened to be a hard ws by the mob. Now the drg was down to just over 200 hp. I immediately proceeded to get up and the brd was just standing there doing nothing. In the few seconds that it took to get up and start casting, he took another critical hit and died.

I feel the reason that things like this happen sometimes with a rdm main healing is because people think we have a bottomless pit of mp. While its true that our mp can be massive because we have convert, there are times that it is far from "bottomless". The brd was frugal with her mp to the point of letting someone die. She's not main healer but she does have the obligation to know I'm resting and throw out a cure if needed. This is one of the reasons why I do not like main healing on my rdm. We do not have bottomless mp and convert is not ready whenever we want it. In one fight alone the rng used 440 of my mp just to stay alive. While I do have approx 1050 mp (when full), that is a good chunk of it.....and I had just converted right before the fight.

So really for me, main curing on my whm is not desired but I will do it. The only stipulation is that the pt listen to me when I warn them about my mp. Competing drgs, rngs with death wishes, brds afraid to use mp.....need not bother asking me to pt. LOL

[Karinya]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

My dear outsider, if you can't be bothered to read the entire thread, please don't comment on other people's posts. If you'd bothered to read the thread from the beginning, you'd know I've maintained that RDM is a utility job from the very start and that I'm fanatically opposed to people who say "Oh no, I won't ever sub whm and main heal, the proper way to play RDM is /BLM".

I have read the whole thread and I don't see any of those people. Where exactly are they? If you're fanatically opposed to people that don't exist... well, that's just weird. (Even the people that don't have multiple subs leveled generally admit that it would be useful to do so, but just aren't willing to put the time into it.)

And the post I was directly responding to made it seem like you were fanatically opposed to any use of RDM/BLM, not just exclusive use of it. Is that not true? Were you not really intending to compare RDM/BLM to SMN/BLM (a combination that is widely and with good reason considered stupid in the majority of party setups)?

My position has always been that RDM gets cure spells as part and parcel of the job itself. Refusing to be able to main heal cure on a RDM job is about as amusing as that ninja I saw the other day with "Direct Damage only, Provoke: X" in his comment. Somewhere along the way, this got sidetracked into a "Red mage can only main cure when he has /whm" argument, which is not only incorrect, but caused people to attack the /whm sub as being "less effective" than a /blm sub. I do not agree with this.

Well, I don't agree with it either - it's an overgeneralization, at best. In some circumstances /WHM is better, in others /BLM is better. I haven't tried /BRD but it sounds interesting - certainly there's theoretical reasons why it might be good.

In some situations it will be very difficult for a RDM/BLM (or RDM/BRD or whatever) to main heal. (Compared to RDM/WHM, SMN/WHM or WHM/anything...) Not all situations, but some. Those are (some of) the situations where RDM/WHM is *more* effective than RDM/BLM.

In other situations /WHM goes unused except for one DS cure after convert every 10 min - you don't need na spells against your current targets or they are adequately taken by another pt member; you don't need curagas or they are taken by another pt member. RDM/BLM will usually be more effective in those situations (above level 40).

So, if I can agree that RDM/WHM isn't always worse than RDM/BLM (in fact, I never said so in the first place), can you agree that it isn't always better?

BTW, what's your opinion of damage-only warriors? If it's different from your opinion of damage-only ninjas, why the double standard?

And it's also incredibly amusing how afraid people are of being blamed for a tank's death - as if people are that quick to throw the blame around whenever something bad happens. I find people are generally much more constructive and intelligent than to engage in pointless "Your fault!" finger pointing just after a death in the party. I do think this excuse is just what it is - an excuse.

You have better luck with pickups than I do, I guess, if you don't often see finger-pointing and insults after a death. (Obviously you don't see a lot of blame-slinging in a static, but then, you see a lot less deaths, too, whether the party setup is unconventional or not.) I suppose you can make the point that being effective is more important than seeming effective - but on the other hand, tell that one to the DRGs lfp. The perceptions of other players, faulty or not, do affect you. And a non-main-healing RDM is much less likely to be blamed for someone else's mistake. Do I refuse to main heal? No. Do I condemn players who do? No. Do you? Sure looks like it.

(Snipped some irrelevant insults.)

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

I totally agree about the finger pointing. People do it, its human nature. When I main heal on both my rdm and whm, I've had it happen. What's funny is that if there is another mage in the pt that can heal or a pld, no one ever points the finger their way even though they also have the ability. LOL

I also don't think that rdm's should main heal after lvl 65ish. Cure IV is great and if they sub whm they get Divine Seal so they can imitate Cure V+ every 10 minutes. But inbetween those 10 mins, the best they can do is Cure IV and sometimes Cure IV just isn't enough. And in PICK UP PARTIES, you can't rely on the other mages to pick up the slack. I can't tell you how many times I've had a blm just stand there with nearly full mp and let someone die. The only way I'll main heal on my rdm now is if its a pt of people I know. I did that recently with ls members and one pickup (brd). The brd did exactly what all the other pickups with healing abilities do, just stood there when I needed healing assistance. He felt confident using Curaga II after the fight but not during but that was about it.

I don't blame rdm's that don't want to main heal. I have never turned down a pt that wanted me to main heal nor have I put that I wouldn't main heal in my comment. Something that people don't realize also is that if rdm is your main job then your used to being a rdm not a whm. There is a difference in how you play them and if your used to playing rdm then being a pseudo whm can be stressful and you might not be up to it. Then mistakes are made, people make negative comments, and you have a bad experience. The game isn't supposed to stress you out.......its a game!