Why do people hate main healing?

[locus]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Hehe, Drain is based on drk and INT skill, but DRK is sometimes somewhat gimped in the INT department - I've pulled up to 260ish hp on my black mage non magic-bursted.

- Re: Elemental Seal - ES is a lifesaver. That being said, Red mage has A+ enfeebling skill and missing a sleep with a dark staff on doesn't happen very often except against undead/things with shell/IT++ things/bats/HNM. If you're going to fight in a dangerous area and you don't trust your party, by all means sub /BLM.

/BLM is a very lazy subjob in my opinion, but that's because it works well, while taking less effort to play than /WHM. /WHM usually means that more attention has to be paid to the logs, and not everybody is capable of that kind of tolerance.

The fact you can find parties easily even with an unlevelled sub is more an extension of the fact that if I ever decided to play Bard, I could probably find parties even if I insisted on playing BRD/DRG all the way to level 75 or better yet - used the moogle lag trick to remove my subjob completely. (I can stake everything I own on this)

My advice is don't ignore WHM - level it someday. But that's because I refuse to let myself be inferior to other Red Mages. (And that is the reason that I have to level DRK to 37 now, despite having no interest in the job whatsoever). Make of that advice what you will, I'll laugh at Aegis Schism with my /WHM in the meanwhile.

[Karinya]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

I think you're underestimating the effectiveness of Conserve MP. INT, MND, magic skills, divine or elemental seal don't affect Refresh, Bio, Dia in the slightest and very rarely affect Dispel - Conserve MP does. Any RDM can get capped cure effectiveness easily and no subjob can improve it more than once every 10 minutes - except with Conserve MP.

Now, I'm not saying that RDM/WHM is not useful. But it's situational. If there is already a WHM or someone else that is covering -na spells, erase, curagas, there are only a few monsters in the game where you will need more than one person doing so. Divine Seal can save you a few MP after convert, but nowhere near as much as Conserve MP saves you over the whole 10 minutes (and you have higher base MP with /BLM to begin with).

After level 65, nuking becomes more important in a RDM's contribution to the party. Not just MB, but throwing extra nukes on #4 and #5 to hit the chain timers too. More INT, conserve MP (tier III nukes are 100+ mp) and elemental seal are quite helpful in this situation. Escape, Aspir and Drain aren't bad either.

Ultimately, I think all RDMs should have both BLM sub and WHM sub available and select which one is more appropriate to the party composition and the monsters you intend to fight. (After level 30, at least. Before that, /WHM all the time is fine and /BLM all the time is ok too.) I haven't tried /BRD yet (my BRD only 18). Some other subs like /DRK, /THF and /NIN have use in specific situations but not really in exp pt.


To return to the original question: RDM are not as effective main healers as WHM, even RDM/WHM. Cure V, Curaga III+IV, Protectra/Shellra IV, Regen III, Stona are just a few spells that they don't get ever, and many other spells they get later than a real whm would, in addition to gear issues. Furthermore some (stupid) parties expect them to be 100% as effective at RDM while also filling 100% of the WHM role - as if casting time and MP weren't limiting enough when filling only one role. Similar arguments apply to SMN, I assume, but haven't played it much so I will concentrate on the issues facing RDM as a main healer.

RDM BRD BLM is a great setup - if all 3 are experienced at working with each other within that setup. Most BLMs don't know what to do with all that MP and either nuke more (and pull hate), or just sit and don't use it at all. Few know how to support the party with low-hate -na spells and cure between battles. Granted if you get the right people and the right teamwork it's a fantastic setup, but it's a combination whose potential is rarely realized in practice, and the RDM is often blamed by people not paying enough attention to see the real problems.

And BRDs are rare to begin with. A lot of "we want a main healer, let's ask this RDM" parties end up as something like tank, 3 physical DDs, RDM and BLM - if you're lucky the BLM will help you heal, but then again, maybe he won't. Those parties are hell, and everyone blames the RDM for the problems when you have 4 people standing around a fly giving it TP.

Thus some RDM opt to avoid the hassle by declaring "no main healer". (Not me personally, but I understand the motivation and won't judge people who do.) Sure, you avoid some good parties this way, but you probably avoid a lot more bad parties. Nobody has the responsibility to carry 5 idiots on their shoulders.

[nanatsu]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Well I was going to post something Karinya, but you kinda like...read my mind and posted just about everything I wanted to say. :p So...I just made this useless post here to say that agree with above^

.... meh. :p

[locus]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Meanwhile: I think you're overestimating the usefulness of conserve mp. It activates often enough to be useful, but it doesn't actually DO anything if you have enough mp to last for your entire 10 minute convert cycle and fulfil your responsibilities. You'll have a little extra mp left over to nuke (and I'm sure your burst damage will be appreciated, but that's not the point). Unless conserve MP is saving you 88 mp every 10 minutes + the amount you are gaining from autoregen saving you on curing yourself, Divine seal is just as good. There's also the problem that Conserve MP is unreliable. Divine Seal isn't. If you already have enough MP stamina, Conserve MP isn't going to drastically increase your efficiency.

(By the way, this happens regularly in about 1 in 3 of all cycles - Conserve MP doesn't process enough to give me 88 mp back. Yes, I notice these things because I am anal retentive.)

I can't argue the fact that black mage does increase your mp's endurance as a Black mage, and YES it is situational. Subs tend to be- No duh! If I had a BRD in my party, would I sub BRD? If I had a WHM in my party, do I need to sub /WHM as much? Now let's consider that statements also tend to be situational - it's called context! (similiarly, if there's a black mage in your party, /BLM's sleepga and Elemental seal aren't as necessary - because he can do that for you.)

The point here was "why do people hate main healing" - this ASSUMES that there is no main healer (i.e. white mage) already. (Or you have a white mage that wants to be DD, which is a moot point because you don't have a white mage in that case either.) And let me say that if there isn't a WHM in my party, I'm damn well subbing whm on my rdm unless the BLM is very very good.

Suppose you're one of those RDM that chooses to decline all "main" healing duties (semicolons to show the fact that I don't believe in such a thing as main healing - everyone should pitch in.) despite the fact that you are capable of doing so if you tried (unless you're a Galka). Do you expect me to think better of your skills compared to a RDM that will? It's perfectly alright for you to say "I won't do this and that" as long as you face up to the fact that there are consequences for doing so - don't expect anyone to think you're still a "Wonderful red mage".

Edit: Just to counter a few of your opinions on whm's healing superiority, which I'm sure I iterated before.

Cure V - Given. This is one of a WHM's few unique tools that is actually very good.

Curaga III+IV - I have yet to have a good reason to cast either of these SLOW casting spells in any party. One good reason might be if the other mages in my party had lobotomies and don't know how to curaga too to share the hate. And I had a deathwish. Curaga 3 and 4 are so slow to cast that I would rather benediction if I was feeling suicidal, because someone WILL die while I'm casting these spells. The correct order after a nasty ga spell (IMO) is Cure IV(RDM) or V(WHM) person with hate, wait a little, cure red people. Not "Curaga 4 - oops, the tank got killed while I was casting this slow as heck spell"

Protectra/Shellra IV - I miss this when I play my RDM, but honestly, in an experience party, only the frontline needs both of these spells. And when they wear off, only the main tank should need it immediately. If you pull hate enough to require either of these 2 regularly on yourself, you're doing something wrong.

Regen III - This is a very slow spell that locks you up for 5 seconds. Yes, I like it as my white mage, but there are times I can't cast this spell, because I'm waiting for that monster to use it's tp. I've gotten better gear since, and now even though I like regen 3 a lot, it is by no means ever necessary.

Gear - It used to be that red mage had problems with -enmity, but the crow set makes this point very very moot. Keep your +mp gear on until you use the mp, then switch to crow for curing. If you can be bothered.

Fact is - White mages sometimes feel a little annoyed because Red mages can do what they do in good parties, only faster. White mage might find it easier to cure an inefficient party, but red mage beats it hands down for basic exp-party cure tanking if your party is composed out of reasonably good players.

[Icemage]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

I agree with locus' position regarding Conserve MP. It's nice, but RDMs really want consistency out of our subjobs due to the convert cycle. Sure, sometimes you have a ton of MP in a cycle and can go crazy with nukes and still have juice in the battery when convert comes back up. But there's other times where it won't kick in at all, or only kicks on on cheap spells like Paralyze.

Subjobs are always situational, though. I really like having WHM, BLM and BRD available to me when playing RDM as it allows me to easily shift roles based on what jobs are available for XP parties.

I'll deviate slightly from locus in saying that Curaga III has come in handy for me a few times. This is usually when some monster has done AoE to the party (usually HNM). Toss a Cure V at the tank, and then follow up with Blink + Curaga III or DS/Curaga III often works in my favor (-25-35% cure casting time depending on gear), as long as I can withstand the hate spike from that much healing. Curaga IV, however, I don't think I've ever cast in a serious situation except maybe one time.

Its a fact that until level 75, Red Mages are simply faster than White Mages at casting cures. It was only after I got full Cure speed upgrades that I finally got faster than an RDM, which is pretty sad if you think about it. Funny thing is, I wish for my WHM spells when playing RDM, but wish for my RDM spells when playing WHM.


Icemage

[tdh]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

I don't deny that there are reasons to have all three of options for a sub, but to be honest with, in partying with other RDMs, or other RDMs in my LS, DS has only been used for the Post Convert Cure IV. For me, a basic Cure IV with my Light Staff, and a Drain does the trick, and I'm fine. Another mage might cast Regen on me, or Cure me. So far I've only died once after Convert.

Like I said previously, I don't notice Conserver MP kicking in unless I actually look right after casting Warp. And in my last 3 parties, combined I've used Convert 3 times. I don't have much trouble landing Sleep these days, so I rarely get use out of ES. I think I used it twice in 5 hours in my last party just for the hell of it.

That right could be an arguement to have /WHM to actually use DS, but I like the extra MP and INT from /BLM sub being an Elvaan.

I fully intend to level WHM to Lv.40, and I will probably do it once I have RDM60. I've been on EXP tear as of late, but I don't think I've been hindered or would really be more efficient if I had /WHM right now.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Regen III - ...I like regen 3 a lot, it is by no means ever necessary.

I totally disagree. Regen 3 has greatly helped my mp conservation many many times. I cast it on the pld as soon as I see the puller coming with the mob. Then I rest. I can usually grab a decent amount of mp back by doing this. I cast this much less during the fight but there have been times where I use the same technic with melee. All the regen spells should be macro'd on a whm and all of them utilized. They are some of the greatest spells we get. When I play my rdm I'm constantly moaning I want Regen 2 at least!! Come on SE!! ;P

I don't deny that there are reasons to have all three of options for a sub, but to be honest with, in partying with other RDMs, or other RDMs in my LS, DS has only been used for the Post Convert Cure IV. For me, a basic Cure IV with my Light Staff, and a Drain does the trick, and I'm fine. Another mage might cast Regen on me, or Cure me. So far I've only died once after Convert.

I totally agree. DS is used 90% of the time for Convert. As tdh said, thats not always necessary if you are a smart rdm.

I sub whm when needed but I have my blm sub on always. I play whm and frankly I'm sick of the main healing crap. I want to play rdm in all its glory and not forced to be a pseudo whm.

[Savannah]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

lol ask the leader what sub i should bring...nu uh !!! no way! when i seek for a party, i seek in the main job/sub job that i am going to use. if they dont like the combination....they dont have to invite me....plain and simple.

[Icemage]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

lol ask the leader what sub i should bring...nu uh !!! no way! when i seek for a party, i seek in the main job/sub job that i am going to use. if they dont like the combination....they dont have to invite me....plain and simple.

That's rather shortsighted. If you have an available subjob that would help a party more than the one you intended to use, why would you not use it? I'm not understanding the logic here; you actually enjoy spending extra time in the XP grind?


Icemage

[locus]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

I totally disagree. Regen 3 has greatly helped my mp conservation many many times. I cast it on the pld as soon as I see the puller coming with the mob. Then I rest. I can usually grab a decent amount of mp back by doing this. I cast this much less during the fight but there have been times where I use the same technic with melee. All the regen spells should be macro'd on a whm and all of them utilized. They are some of the greatest spells we get. When I play my rdm I'm constantly moaning I want Regen 2 at least!! Come on SE!! ;P



I totally agree. DS is used 90% of the time for Convert. As tdh said, thats not always necessary if you are a smart rdm.

I sub whm when needed but I have my blm sub on always. I play whm and frankly I'm sick of the main healing crap. I want to play rdm in all its glory and not forced to be a pseudo whm.

Necessary = needed. I know many people who can play whm very well without Regen 3. Regen 3 just makes it better. A good example of a necessary spell = cure 3. A good example of an unnecessary but very nice spell = phalanx. If you read my post, I never said outright that "Regen 3 is a bad spell".

So "RDM in all its glory" doesn't include being able to heal, na, or stand in for an important position in the party. I think being able to save other people from a sticky situation is pretty glorious but apparently I was wrong.

I guess I must also have been wrong about my idea about RDM being a utility class. Pity it took me 75 levels to figure that out when I could just have saved myself a lot of effort by doing /blm no matter whether /brd or /whm would be better for the party or not, even if it wasn't "essential". And I should auto-decline any party invite without a white mage. Why should I cast naspells and main heal? Not part of my glory! Why should I /whm when I'm fighting darters or weapons and curaga 2 would help me conserve so much mp when healing after an AE? Healing is not my glory! /BLM!

Gee, maybe I should go level smn this way, with /blm too. I'm sure I'll be very very popular.

Edit: Yesterday, just like any other day, my party decided to go have a little fun in Ru Avitau. Gee, we sure got hit by crystal rain a lot! At that point, I would cast curaga 2 and heal at least 3 people at once - that was 633 hp for 120 mp! I saved at least 18 mp on every curaga 2, and every time I hit one more person than the three in the front row with it, I saved another 46 mp!

But I subbed whm. Guess I shouldn't have done that - Conserve mp is so uber and leet.

[Jei]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

I'm not sure what glory means in this case. But as long as I know I'm doing good for the party, I consider that glorious ^^ what ever sub we use.
At the end it's the party that judge us.

I don't mind main heal at all. I lived through the times when main healwas all RDM could do.

There's only so many roles in FFXI you can do. Attack, tanks, nuke, heal, support, and I found them all fun. And I've experienced them all with my RDM.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Necessary = needed. I know many people who can play whm very well without Regen 3. Regen 3 just makes it better. A good example of a necessary spell = cure 3. A good example of an unnecessary but very nice spell = phalanx. If you read my post, I never said outright that "Regen 3 is a bad spell".

In your opinion, yes its not necessary. In my opinion, yes it is. Part of my job is mp conservation to keep the exp flowing or the alliance alive.

Wow...a month later. Better late than never??

[Enialas]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

i thought this thread died, oh wait 1 month and then unburied.

update:
rdm64/blm32

whm24 smn 21 and brd 7

when i run around non-anon or even with a pt flag, i get invites and don't even get asked to change my sub. more or less I get a "please come"

since whm's bound to static party, it's actually going up at a reasonable rate, considering we pt once a week and maybe a second.

except on these forums i still havent ran into anyone saying rdm/brd is best but i still haven't had to main heal as rdm since. i guess i'm just lucky?

[Jei]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

If you think main heal is a burden then yea ^^

I for one consider myself lucky if I got into a good PT, no matter what role they want me to do. I was asked to tank once as Rdm at level 55 (that was long before refresh) and the EXP wasn't bad at all.

[Karinya]

Re: Why do people hate main healing?

Is there someone on this thread that claimed RDM should never sub WHM, locus, or are you just attacking a strawman? It certainly wasn't me, I pointed out the situational benefits of /WHM already.

Frankly, when you compare RDM/BLM to SMN/BLM, I start to suspect you're trolling. SMN doesn't have Cure III+IV regardless of what it subs. And I'm not sure if Conserve MP even affects bloodpacts.

Being the main healer is one of the situations where RDM/WHM is more likely to be appropriate; so is fighting a lot of AoE spammers, especially undead. The tangent on RDM subjobs was only incidentally related to the main thread topic, which may have confused you (especially when the same post discusses both). Nobody (that I can see) is pushing a dogmatic One True Subjob approach to RDM. Except maybe you.


I think RDM main healing is like WAR main tanking. It can be done, and even done well, if that person has the right subjob and gear for the job, and if party composition and tactics are adjusted appropriately, and if the party fights the right kinds of monsters; but that doesn't make it as effective as a specialist in that role, let alone more effective. And if the party doesn't make those adjustments, the party will do poorly, and often blame the person in an unconventional role.