Isn't it about time to drop the elitism and enjoy the game?

[csBahamut]

But at least I can see now you are starting to accept the fact that Galka quite frankly need help to perform.

That "car" they're driving is barely enough to cover the basics of the job... any extra... then I as the Rdm have to cover for. I don't have to do that with Hume Whms, let alone Taru Whm groups. Its the reason we don't make it past Chain 4 with Galka Mages.

And other jobs don't need help to perform? Then why do we even bother forming parties if jobs didn't need help to perform? I think you're taking the standard party expectations for granted here. Each job has to perform certain roles so that other jobs don't. That's why tanks take damage, and WHM cure them.

WHM can enfeeble too, yet you have to 'cover' that for them as well.

I think what you're trying to point out is that Galka WHM do not fit into the 'elite' catagory of mages. If you would take the average exp/hr from all exp parties, I think you would see that any job/race combination can meet the average , and probably the above average too. It's those extremely rare and specialized parties, that can reach the highest exp possible, where job/race choice makes a difference. Or at least, that's what I see from your statements, and what I'm also trying to point out.

Icemage really hit the nail on the head with:

What it really boils down to is party performance and the group dynamics. Every player in a group brings a certain amount of damage/healing/support/defense potential to a group.

and

The reason Taru WHMs tend to make better parties is that they have additional MP available to cover when someone else falls short or makes a mistake (i.e. souleater at a bad moment).

People like to have a margin of safety. Well, because we're human and we make mistakes. For those that don't make mistakes very often, the bare minimum is all that's needed. When you get pick-up parties where people don't know how to really play well enough to compliment eachother (or just due to poor ability/low skill), then mistakes happen.

I may spend 1 mil + in spells but I do it over time, where a melee has to drop 1 mil on 1 item, so that kinda sucks for them.

Exactly true. It's just that big lump sum numbers are a lot more noticable to pople than gradual numbers. It's why people prefer jobs with a single big hit rather than DoT jobs for damage dealing. Both jobs might do about the same damage,m but the big number 'looks nicer'. It's why some high priced items are sold better when it's advertized that you can pay many small amounts over time, rather than in one big lump sum (of course, there can be other reasons to include as well). By paying a small monthly fee, people 'feel' like they're paying less, even if they're really paying more.

[Halato]

Ok, first off, I know changes have been made to the food system, but its not like the old food is useless. If you CHOOSE to go with the absolute most expensive food in Sole Sushi, so be it. If you go with Chief Kabobs, or something else, no one will hang you for it. Basically, dropping 40k for 6 hours of food is not an absolute must. If you want to talk about expensive, talk to Ninjas that have to spend 100k on Shihei per level, PLUS the cost of food and other ninja tools.

Chiefkabobs (old food): 18k for 12 hours use. Grants me about 30 less attack than they *used to* and *doubled in price*. 12 hours doesn't include deaths or 5 minute fights (BCNMs, NMs, quests).

Sole Sushi: 24k to 30k for 6 hours use.

Bison steak: ~7k for 3 hours use.

And no one ever said Ninja's weren't expensive. But if standard pies went to 18k a stack, your eyes would bulge when someone said 20k was expensive for a scroll that would last you forever, too.

[Silverquick]

Originally posted by csBahamut
And other jobs don't need help to perform? Then why do we even bother forming parties if jobs didn't need help to perform? I think you're taking the standard party expectations for granted here. Each job has to perform certain roles so that other jobs don't. That's why tanks take damage, and WHM cure them.

WHM can enfeeble too, yet you have to 'cover' that for them as well.

Enfeebling is my job as a Red Mage not the White Mage.... Enfeebling, Refreshing, Dispelling, is my main job as an Rdm.

I don't need any help to do that, however if a whm does need to cover for me on that other than rarely... then I'd be a pretty poor Rdm and you probably wouldn't want me in your group.

Likewise... Healing, Hasting, Buffing is the job mainly of a Whm, with minor assistence from me. If the Whm can do his job and need no help from me ... We're gonna be chaining more.

And the Race/Classes I stated above, don't need my help in their main duties except on rare occasion, I'll offer it, but they are more than capable of doing it themselves if needs be.

I think what you're trying to point out is that Galka WHM do not fit into the 'elite' catagory of mages. If you would take the average exp/hr from all exp parties, I think you would see that any job/race combination can meet the average , and probably the above average too. It's those extremely rare and specialized parties, that can reach the highest exp possible, where job/race choice makes a difference. Or at least, that's what I see from your statements, and what I'm also trying to point out.

No I can honestly say, there is a noticable drop off in party with a Galka, and its not the players fault. They have to stretch it just to make ends meet.

And I or other parts of the group end up covering for them a lot more often. Hence, the real reason I can't get past chain 4 with them. And if anything goes wrong, where I have to sleep adds and buff myself, or the Pld takes a nasty WS and multiple crits, or we're fighting AE mobs, We'll be lucky if we can even make chain 2.

People like to have a margin of safety. Well, because we're human and we make mistakes. For those that don't make mistakes very often, the bare minimum is all that's needed. When you get pick-up parties where people don't know how to really play well enough to compliment eachother (or just due to poor ability/low skill), then mistakes happen.

Its not just that,

Its also the fact that when putting a party togather, if you had the choice between a party member that has only the potential to chain 4 no matter what he does... Versus a party member that has the potential to chain 6 or more....

Which one do you think people are going to take?

...even if its only the potential to do so.

Is this Elitism?

Nope, just plain old people wanting the best chance to get it done.

Will they accept lesser members if thats all thats available? Yup, because beggars can't be choosers. But that however is exactly what it really means.

[Genuine]

I say JP are racists. I tried making a party. I took me 4 hours. There were every job you can think of and alot of them to. All JP, so, me (not caring if they were hindu) ask a few to join, "JP ONRY" "English Party No Thanks" "srry" or the more common one " " anyway, I asked about 90% of that list to join and only got 1 jp and 3 na. They last job i needed was a WHM so I see a jp WHM and try for it. "Thanks for the offer but i'll have to pass." I waited for another hour before we can get a WHM and by then 2 people dropped. luckily i replaced them. So I only had 2 hrs to lvl, thats BS at lvl 52.

[Pounce]

There was a discussion like this on ffvault once.

I think the term you are looking for is "talent".

FFXI (or most MMORPGs) require little talent.

Unless you are a utter moron, you will have grasped the fundamentals of playing your job pretty quickly. Mastery is slightly more difficult, but still not too hard.

Compare that to say, a FPS or RTS. You can train in Starcraft 24/7/365 and yet you may never, ever, ever, beat one of those uber gosus who are simply more "talented" than you.

I think a big factor is PvP vs PvE. The "difficulty cap" in a purely PvE game (i.e. most MMORPGs - even many PvP MMORPGs are heavily reliant on gear - which comes from PvE) is inherently lower than the cap in a PvP game (i.e. FPS, RTS) where your "skill" is measured against a living, breathing, thinking human opponent, not some bits of data.

[Elsurion]

Originally posted by Gman

I may spend 1 mil + in spells but I do it over time, where a melee has to drop 1 mil on 1 item, so that kinda sucks for them. If you get good gear for your class, you will pay no matter what you play as. Yes, mages can get away with it more than melee, but people remember who is a good mage and who isnt, and that will determine invites next time.

2 of my THF Armor is now 1.1 ~ 1.2 Mio worth.

That's the normal Stuff a THF has to have at Level60.
Emp. Hairpin 500k ~ 600k
Winged Boots 500k ~ 600k
Black Cota ~200k

If i'd go for the other nice stuff this would it be (7 Mio):
Scorp Harness: ~5 Mio
Amnemit +1: ~1 Mio
Sniper: 2x 400k ~ 500k

Also the most expensive Scrolls like Teleport-* is Questable. Also you need not that much money on Scrolls, the 50k is laughtable.

The only two expensive WHM Scrolls are Erase and Raise II pre Lv60.

[Yuanlung]

Originally posted by Genuine
I say JP are racists.

hy·poc·ri·sy

Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.



http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=hypocrisy

[Lynsy]

Originally posted by csBahamut
Exactly the point I was trying to make. The rest of your post is valid too (though a little better explanation of the duoing could have been done). Sometimes that Taru MP is needed, other times, it's just a waste and a Galka MP pool would be enough. At even other times, that Galka WHM could be better (unable to think of an example ATM, but they do exist).

Im not sure what you're looking for in an explanation of duoing. We go out, as a MNK/WAR (sometimes /THF) and WHM/SMN and kill things without the aid of 4 other people for the purpose of gaining XP (or other things).
When duoing in Kuftal/Bibiki Bay/Etc we go for Chain 5 on ~VT mobs, yeilding 150-230 XP per kill generally (Also works in KRT, but usually dont go there cause I hate it and ghosts are annoying and kill chains). We must start every chain with full MP or can not possibly make Chain 5.
He pulls the mob, brings it back and uses Counterstance with Melee Gaiters (AF2 MNK, improves Counterstance effectiveness). The reason for this means he rarely gets hit, but when he does its for large numbers. It also improves damage output. It may sound odd, but less often, very high damage hits taken are actually easier to manage. (Which Ill explain momentarily.) I haste him, Dia II then switch to AF body and corresponding Ele staff for Paralyze and Slow (~75% stick rate on VTs as a WHM ). I throw him the lowest Cure spell that will cure him to roughly full, flash the mob, then rest if need be. His max HP ranges from ~1600-1850 (depending on current gear configuration), when he drops to orange HP, I stand and cast Cure V (which is why rarer, higher dmg hits are better--it allows me more rest time and generally allows me to always have the option of fiinishing my current tick before standing), wash rinse repeat until the fight is over. Rest MP to full(ish) then repeat on a new mob, each mob lowering the MP signal to pull. By the time you are going for Chain 5, there can be no delay in pulling due to the sheer time it takes for 1 person to go through the ammount of HP a VT to 75 mob has. Being as 100% MP conservative and resting for the absolute max amount I can, it still runs me to <100 MP at some point during the Chain 5. This can be done for 3-4k XP per hour, which isn't a fantastic rate, but considering the set up is pretty decent.
Aura Statues (and Ladons in Kuftal, though Fang Rush does so much dmg during Counterstance they are far too risky to be worth while) are basically the same strategy except that they are IT meaning it is near impossible to even make Chain 1 duo. Before I got nobles, most of the time couldn't even chain 1 them . And that is exactly my point--when you have already stretched your resources to the absolute max is the only time that giving yourself more resources is really worthwhile. If my MNK friend and I did not have the gear we do, there is simply no way some things that fall within our reach ever could be more than a pipe dream to do. However, when we XP on Aura Statues with 4 other people, it really doesn't matter if we have the gear we do or are both wearing straight up AF1 and basic accesories, we will still end up coming out about the same over all.

[Bigbird]

Originally posted by Pounce
FFXI (or most MMORPGs) require little talent.

Unless you are a utter moron, you will have grasped the fundamentals of playing your job pretty quickly. Mastery is slightly more difficult, but still not too hard.

Compare that to say, a FPS or RTS. You can train in Starcraft 24/7/365 and yet you may never, ever, ever, beat one of those uber gosus who are simply more "talented" than you.

I think a big factor is PvP vs PvE. The "difficulty cap" in a purely PvE game (i.e. most MMORPGs - even many PvP MMORPGs are heavily reliant on gear - which comes from PvE) is inherently lower than the cap in a PvP game (i.e. FPS, RTS) where your "skill" is measured against a living, breathing, thinking human opponent, not some bits of data.

Thank you, it doesnt take any skill to press the same 4 macros every fight. Unfortunatly, after a certain point, skill is no longer really an issue for FFXI, any moron can do any job in this game.

[the_governor]

A few points,

1, I don't understand bad players, it just makes no sense. The only "skillful" thing is timing in this game and I've seen a lot of players who still don't even have a clue as to solid timing at 75. It just makes no sense.

2, If another melee cries about WAAAAAA mages have it so easy, well you know what.. We do. For melee theres DRK/SAM/DRG/WAR/RNG all competing for 2 or less slots, and then theres RDM/WHM/BLM/BRD completing for 3 slots. Its simple, mages are more needed. The thing though, don't cry about why haubergeon costs so much and what not. We have our expensive gear too... Sniper rings too much? Serket ring is 6 sniper rings in its own. Haubergeon a little expensive? Did you not see the price of vermillion cloak? Its easier for melee to be their best than it is mages, and we can't even resell our scrolls if we wanted. Playing both mage and melee jobs, I would honestly have to say.. Melee have the good life, as long as I can get a PT with my monk I prefer leveling that instead of RDM by far. Beating the crap of random stuff is teh win. Another thing is, you don't need snipers and haubergeon, just beat up VT-low IT where accuracy isn't such an issue.

3, Some of the most best players I've ever had the pleasure of partying with have been Galka mages, and honestly when I build a party.. Chances are I'll pick up the Galka BLM over the taru. Taru BLM are usually OMG I BLOW STUFFZ UP MB FREEZ PLZ, where as galka are chilled, conserve thier mp and get the job done almost as well as any taru.

4, Lastly, if you can't afford your endgame gear at 60 its OK. Seriously, take pride you got where you are and you didn't have to go to www.ige.com to get there. Believe it or not, money comes to you in this game, it might not seem like it but it does. Nothing depreciates, you always have the same gear and its always worth the same, the more you play the more gil you have whether its in form of crab shells or beastmen seals. Just don't be ubergimp and most parties will be ok with it, when I build parties at ~60 I don't expect you to have Haubergeon, even though I'm wearing Sniper+1. I'm just being the best I can with the resources I have, and seriously, I'm sure you are too. Only time I'll say something about it is when you make stupid choices, IE (being 61 with a Dino Mantle instead of a cheap NQ amemet :p)

[Pounce]

Ah, but you see, no one will say to a mage "YOU TEH GIMP!" for not having a serket ring.

Quite a few people do say that to a melee without haub/snipers.

Mages - high demand, low supply - they can dictate their terms. Someone has a problem with a red mage not having a serket ring? Too bad, they can go sit on their butts in Lower Jeuno for another hour hoping for another red mage to show up.

Melee - low demand, high supply - they cannot dictate their terms. Someone has a problem with a DRK not having haub/snipers? Good, they can just go grab DRK #45123 instead who does.

[GSDragoon]

Originally posted by Pounce
Ah, but you see, no one will say to a mage "YOU TEH GIMP!" for not having a serket ring.

Quite a few people do say that to a melee without haub/snipers.

Mages - high demand, low supply - they can dictate their terms. Someone has a problem with a red mage not having a serket ring? Too bad, they can go sit on their butts in Lower Jeuno for another hour hoping for another red mage to show up.

Melee - low demand, high supply - they cannot dictate their terms. Someone has a problem with a DRK not having haub/snipers? Good, they can just go grab DRK #45123 instead who does.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I put my +acc/attack/ect in my search comment. There's lots of competition for us meele. Unless someone has partied with you and knows your good, there's really now way to distiguish between which meele would do a better job. You have to advertise good gear.

[the_governor]

You know, the reason you have this extreme difficulty getting a party... might be because you're a dragoon.

Its easier finding a party with my monk than it is finding one with my PLD. If you build your own parties, life is peachy.

[Pounce]

Building your own party is not a magical solution. It doesn't always work, and sometimes it's even worse than the ol' LFG routine.

My success rate with building my own parties vs good ol' LFG is about even.

[the_governor]

building a party isn't that hard, its simple..

do a /sea all levelrange for the needed jobs for that party, grab a friend to party with, so you get that magical yellow name.

then you go from there, same for LFG, do a /sea all and if its not promising.. Level something else :p