Isn't it about time to drop the elitism and enjoy the game?

[Kailea]

Those cookie cutter race/classes quite frankly are the best, and to say otherwise is foolish.

he did not say "best"

True a WHM/SMN Taru will have more MP then a WHM/SMN Galka....but what he is sayingis that with out skill, the Taru could suck and the Galka would rock, or visa versa.....so Race does not matter, that was the point to make them slightly diffrent but not to far apart to make a reallly big diffrence.

Over coming problems as they arise is what makes a game fun and challengeing, sticking to the cookiecutter way of utter crap, will only make the game dull and boring........

mmmmm me thinks warrning should be given out for stupidity and ignorance....but then half this community would be gone....lol oh well..........

[Sadeira]

Originally posted by Silverquick
Galka Mages having troubles sticking spells because they have to put on so much MP gear they have no space for Stat related gear.

stats don't matter, magic skill level matters. that extra 2-4 mnd isn't going to make your cure more powerful than an extra 2-4 skill in healing magic. when debuffs land, what makes them stick is enfeebling skill level. int and/or mnd only determine how effective the debuff is AFTER it sticks. when you nuke, elemental magic skill determines whether the nuke is resisted or it does the fullest damage it can do

stop ragging on galka mages. it's old. it's been done. galka mages can do just as much of a good job as a taru mage the only difference is that tarus have mp that they use like it's going out of style whereas galka mages have to be a lot more skillful in conserving mp.

i repeat: STOP RAGGING ON GALKA MAGES.

[Halato]

True a WHM/SMN Taru will have more MP then a WHM/SMN Galka....but what he is sayingis that with out skill, the Taru could suck and the Galka would rock, or visa versa.....so Race does not matter, that was the point to make them slightly diffrent but not to far apart to make a reallly big diffrence.

I'm sorry, I gotta say this... I always get flamed for saying it, but very few jobs in FFXI take much skill at all.

I'm sorry, but this isn't chess or carpentry. Most "Skill" in this game is choosing the right equipment to fulfill a role. Seriously, look at most melee jobs and tell me someone couldn't play them correctly while drunk, high, medicated, one hand tied behind their back, or ten years old.

I recently started partying with a friend's dad. He's about 60 years old, and basically soloed RDM to 30 so he could open the samurai job. Getting rdm to level 30 took him about 6 months. He's JP irl, so he has an attachment to the samurai job.

Anyways, I level sam with him once a week, starting at level 30. The *Very* first time he skill chained, I taught him. The first session, we skill chained 2 times a fight for 2 hours straight. Guess how many we missed? about 1 or 2 over the course of 2 hours.

Now is when everyone calls me a bad player, blah blah blah, and that my stance on skill OBVIOUSLY means I have none. Do what you think is needed to make yourself feel better about your time spent in game... but this game was designed to be a low-brain power, enjoyable distraction from real life.

Basically, do what you're told and what is expected of you, and you are regarded as a "Skillful" player. I think anyone that doesn't have serious social issues can do those two things...

[Silverquick]

Originally posted by Sadeira
stats don't matter, magic skill level matters. that extra 2-4 mnd isn't going to make your cure more powerful than an extra 2-4 skill in healing magic. when debuffs land, what makes them stick is enfeebling skill level. int and/or mnd only determine how effective the debuff is AFTER it sticks. when you nuke, elemental magic skill determines whether the nuke is resisted or it does the fullest damage it can do

Huh?

You hear that Mages? Ditch all your wands and all that Bonus Int/Mind gear because its all worthless according to this Galka, Forget all the testing from JP sources that confirms stat increases do in many cases dramatically improve performance even resists for Elemental spells.

Sorry my friend, but stat gear does matter and it does improve your performance. And Int does have an effect on elemental resists. Just not as much as pure elemental skill. And it has an even larger impact on enfeebles.

Thats why they say if you get the right gear you can at least perform the job correctly. But as a Galka you have to use more in MP gear than in Stat gear.

Where you as a Galka may have to put on two Astral rings for +50 mp.... That Hume is able to put on Two +3 Int rings for +6 Int. And the Galka is lucky if it brought your MP up to what the Hume has by nature.

And if he's Taru he's already up on you by a good 5-10 points of Int along with that +6 in Int from his rings.

That is a cold hard fact.

Can you perform the job as a Galka? Yes... its the next part that you say though that seriously stretches reality...

stop ragging on galka mages. it's old. it's been done. galka mages can do just as much of a good job as a taru mage the only difference is that tarus have mp that they use like it's going out of style whereas galka mages have to be a lot more skillful in conserving mp.

i repeat: STOP RAGGING ON GALKA MAGES.

No, the Taru mage will always be better than a Galka mage at Pure casting, no ifs ands or buts about it, you will never be as powerful as a pure taru as a mage.

The only way he won't be is if he sucks as a player. Because he's holding all the cards... the MP, plus the stats and thats all without gear. And if he stacks on the same gear as you do, he's still that much better.

Can you do the job as a Galka? Yeah... if I can't find another mage, I'd still pick you up in a group because I need one.

Can you do it as well as a Taru? Nope... not gonna happen, to say otherwise is laughable.

Hell I am Hume and I know better than to make some stupid claim that I'm just as good as a Taru Mage.

But I am passable and can do the job. ... and I'm even a lot better than a Galka given the same gear. But I'm still nothing compared to a Taru. in pure magery (White mage or Black Mage), I'm just a little more sturdy and won't die in 3 hits.

To actually sit there and say Galka Mages are just as good if not better than Taru is just plain stupid.

[the_governor]

Elitists seem to be mages usually, I'll admit when I EXP with my RDM, I'm one of the worst with it but hey, I'm a RDM and I can get away with that. When I wipe the dust off the RDM and go out for some EXP, it just about is the same build else I really don't want to leave Jeuno for it. On the other hand, I've probably spent more time trying to maximize my RDM more than the majority of the server(NA at least) and I feel I have place to be picky.

When I level monk, I'll take what I can get.. Like, seriously, I'll join a MNK/WHM/WHM/WHM/WHM/WHM party. I actually enjoy the job, and as long as I get to pound face I'm quite content.

Pretty much the same deal with Paladin, take what I can get, unless I'm feeling really lazy :p

I'm one of those "dedicated" players I guess, when I decide I want to take something to 75, I research, I test, I want to be the best possible. For example, w/ monk I did fraps on various equipment configurations and whatnot, to make sure I wasn't lacking from my max potential. I crafted god knows how many scorp harness's until I HQed, just because I want to stand out as being "exceptional". I get a little upset when someone comes to exp with bad equipment, but one thing is true. Mages, skill > equip. Melee equip > skill. Its painful partying with a DRK that doesn't have Haub + Snipers, good players or not, theres nothing making up for that miss fest. On the flipside, I partied with a RDM as my PLD, never refreshed me.. didn't enfeeble.. didn't really do a whole lot of anything. Had great gears, but yea. Then next party, I invite a new RDM, hes still wearing Saintly/Ermites rings at 69, but he was such a good player.. I didn't PT with a diffferent RDM then him for about 200000exp. Do you think a DRK could get away with having 2000G rings and nothing but AF? Not quite. With the whole "JP don't care about equipment" thing, they really don't. Honestly, now of days I'm wary of putting my equip in /sea just because some JP might assume I buy gil. I get just as many JP invites with (Scp. Hrn. +1) (Sniper's ring+1)x2 as I do nothing at all. 0 and 0, but still, you get what I'm saying.

Why can a Taru play MNK, but a Galka can't play BLM? That I will never understand... Galka mages usually are some of the most skilled players you will ever PT with. I've replaced taru blm with galka blm , and the galka outdamaged and outperformed the taru just because of his skill alone. Then again, I've seen taru mnk outdamage elvaan mnk just because of equipment alone...

And for anyone that still believes that you don't need skill and equipment will make the difference, go out and party with a no skill Ninja with a scorp, and then PT with a ninja wearing just af that plays their best.

Mages and tanks, your equipment just suppliments your skill as a player. If people offer advice, don't take it to heart, just try playing your best and keeping an open mind.

Melees, The gear you have determines your DPS, simple as that. Setting up skillchains isn't rocket science and if you can't figure out when to use your limited amount of JA's at the best time, there isn't really much hope for you :p

Anywho, sorry for the long rant, no sleep = ranty gov :p

[CarbonFibre]

Lol, everyone already knows melees get screwed in this game. At 60, I try to stay in Valley of Sorrows and other lower end areas because I can't function if someone tries to drag me to Onzozo or Monastic Cavern. I could have twice the skill of the next best Samurai on the entire server and still suck ass trying to exp in these places because I'm poor. The same level 60 mage can go to Onzozo with purely AF and less than 100k in equipment and do fine. In order to correct this, I have to find ways of making more and more gil to buy better equipment. I'm trying to get to 61 before I go farm, mine, etc. so I can sell my precious Daihannya weapon. I could always leech exp and miss like 8/10 hits in the party without them having the balls to kick me, but I would probably feel worse about that than anyone. At this point, I don't even accept invites from people going to some zones for this reason. In my case, basically how much gil I have determines at least half of how well I perform. Accuracy+21 just doesn't cut it.

The "uber" equipment continually goes up in price while the SAM in your level range buys gil and has whatever he wants. Haubergeon 3.5 mil, Sniper's rings 800k, etc. Gil sellers camping everywhere doesn't make me happy either. I guess hope is the only thing keeping me playing at the moment. It just seems kind of unfair that the jobs that are hardest to even get parties with need to work the hardest on equipment just to stay in the game.
:sweat:

[GSDragoon]

Originally posted by Silverquick
Huh?

You hear that Mages? Ditch all your wands and all that Bonus Int/Mind gear because its all worthless according to this Galka, Forget all the testing from JP sources that confirms stat increases do in many cases dramatically improve performance even resists for Elemental spells.

Sorry my friend, but stat gear does matter and it does improve your performance. And Int does have an effect on elemental resists. Just not as much as pure elemental skill. And it has an even larger impact on enfeebles.

Thats why they say if you get the right gear you can at least perform the job correctly. But as a Galka you have to use more in MP gear than in Stat gear.

Where you as a Galka may have to put on two Astral rings for +50 mp.... That Hume is able to put on Two +3 Int rings for +6 Int. And the Galka is lucky if it brought your MP up to what the Hume has by nature.

And if he's Taru he's already up on you by a good 5-10 points of Int along with that +6 in Int from his rings.

That is a cold hard fact.

Can you perform the job as a Galka? Yes... its the next part that you say though that seriously stretches reality...



No, the Taru mage will always be better than a Galka mage at Pure casting, no ifs ands or buts about it, you will never be as powerful as a pure taru as a mage.

The only way he won't be is if he sucks as a player. Because he's holding all the cards... the MP, plus the stats and thats all without gear. And if he stacks on the same gear as you do, he's still that much better.

Can you do the job as a Galka? Yeah... if I can't find another mage, I'd still pick you up in a group because I need one.

Can you do it as well as a Taru? Nope... not gonna happen, to say otherwise is laughable.

Hell I am Hume and I know better than to make some stupid claim that I'm just as good as a Taru Mage.

But I am passable and can do the job. ... and I'm even a lot better than a Galka given the same gear. But I'm still nothing compared to a Taru. in pure magery (White mage or Black Mage), I'm just a little more sturdy and won't die in 3 hits.

To actually sit there and say Galka Mages are just as good if not better than Taru is just plain stupid.

Thank you Silverquick.

[UnnamedGalka]

Silverquick, a lot of what you've said is factual information, but please, save your breath...we've heard it all before, and quite frankly, it gets downright tiring. Why are you so adamant about interjecting all this useless negativity into a "let's drop the elitism" thread anyway?

I don't know about you, but I play this game for fun, and I love the challenge of playing an effective Galkan mage. Sure, I don't have the racial stat advantages that, say, a Taru has (except having more MND than a Taru while playing WHM), but do these black-and-white statistics stop me? NO. I'm willing to work at it and compensate with equipment, food, etc...and because I'm a Galka, it's forced me to learn the painstaking art of MP conservation. I don't care how much MP you have...if you don't have good conservation skills, your MP pool will quickly run dry and you'll hold up the PT.

I may not be the best mage (hell, I don't think the best mage even exists), but speaking with as little ego as possible, I'm still damn good at what I do...infinitely better than all those CRAPPY Taru and Hume mages that I've had to suffer with in my time.

And before the "Taru of equal skill > you" argument gets pulled on me...all I have to say is, so what? It doesn't diminish my own skill any...I'm still good, and both that Taru and I will still get the invites...we're both happy, we're both having fun, life is good...so enough with the disparaging remarks already. Just have fun and try not to stress yourself out too much about how other people choose to play...it's something that I always try to keep in mind.

[Feenicks]

I agree on both arguements. UnnamedGalka is right, and nobody's trying to stop you playing the game. Galka mages are fine if you know what you're doing. On the other hand Taru mages do have the stat advantage on their side.

So who is better? Can we even make that decision and generalise all playrs? No, of course not. So why can't we just accept what's real and live with that? Galka, despite their lack of the stat advantages that Taru have, can still make excellent mages, and so can Taru, however there's no denying that Tarus have it easier.

[Elsurion]

Originally posted by Pounce
No, but quite a lot of people are willing to tolerate a RDM wearing scale mail, armed only with a sword (no staves/wands), eating melee food, casting no enfeebles, and constantly getting asked to refresh X party member. Many people will exalt and worship BRDs who do nothing but cast Ballad (and inconsistently at that) as gods.

In some extreme cases, parties will kick out the person complaining about the incompetent mage instead of kicking the mage.

Sorry but i don't accept a RDM who don't cast refresh on the PLD Tank and our healing support.

Also i don't accept a BRD who don't sing my Hunters for me, when i'm a RNG or the accurancy song when i'm a THF.

Normaly the sucky RDM depops himself by an accidental Warp. Also when i meet a sucky RDM or BRD, i will give them a second chance a few levels later on, but then nomore.

[Icemage]

There's a lot of different forms of elitism in FFXI. Some of those are justified, others are overreactions to perceived differences which simply aren't as big or as important as they seem.

Re: Gear Elitism

There's some gear which I consider essential - Dark Staff, for instance, instantly makes mages much stronger at level 51 vs. level 50. Jelly Ring for tanks for -5% damage. Truly powerful items that "should be" in reach of any given player at their current level is where I draw the line. A WHM55 who doesn't own a dark staff these days tells me that they are either too lazy, too incompetent, or too inconsiderate of others to bring their character up to at least "average" performance capacity.

Counterpoint for not so essential gear: Morion Earring +1. Horrendously expensive item, very difficult to craft, BLM's drool all over themselves for it. But in reality? It doesn't impact your performance anywhere near as much as having an elemental staff in your hand, or even as much as a Moldavite Earring. In fact if the rest of your gear is at least on par with what is "standard" at your level, Morion +1 represents nothing more than a handful of damage per spell.

Re: Food

The type of food you eat makes a huge difference in your performance capabilities, both for XP and for quests/missions, and says a lot about your dedication to the game. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying everyone has to go out and buy, say, a stack of sushi for 30K every time they go XP. But surely most players beyond level 20 can afford the moderately priced foods which are available, and offer nearly the same performance.

Re: Racial Elitism

All joking aside, the main issues between races are HP and MP. That's it. A fistful of stat points makes very little difference, but a Taru ninja is going to be a lot more fragile than a Galka ninja, and there's no way you can make up for that shortfall in gear, for example. This is not to say that Taru ninjas are bad, or Galka mages are bad - good players can always make these sorts of unusual race/job combinations work. People simply need to accept the fact that these are non-standard characters, and live with it. For what it's worth, I find that by and large, the Galka and Elvaan mages I run into tend to be very good at what they do skill-wise, and ditto for the Taru melees - they have to be, to overcome the general prejudices.

Re: Party Dynamics

The main differences I see between JP and EN parties is attention to detail when constructing a party. "On average", a JP party leader is usually a lot more aware of how a party is going to function than a typical EN party leader. There are exceptions to this, of course, but I can't count the number of times I've joined a EN party only to discover that the party leader has done something completely boneheaded like invited 4 melees, or has 2 melees who have no viable skillchains. JP parties rarely suffer from these symptoms.

Knowing what roles people can play, and knowing how to tilt those strengths against the enemies of your choice, is the real key to having a successful XP party. JP players seem to have a much better grasp of this concept, as a whole.


Icemage

[Pounce]

Sorry but i don't accept a RDM who don't cast refresh on the PLD Tank and our healing support.

Also i don't accept a BRD who don't sing my Hunters for me, when i'm a RNG or the accurancy song when i'm a THF.

Normaly the sucky RDM depops himself by an accidental Warp. Also when i meet a sucky RDM or BRD, i will give them a second chance a few levels later on, but then nomore.

That's elitism right there too, in a sense =P.

You and I might not tolerate a RDM like that, but countless people in game do.

There's a reaon why RDM, and even more so, BRD, are called "Quick Tickets to 75". I've seen more sucky RDM than any other jobs in the game, and they still keep getting parties.

[Laehn]

Excellent point. Party dynamics is something few people ever take into account.

You can get away with anything if you have the right jobs put together. Cookie cutter parties are where that extra mp or hp will make a significant difference. But theres a lot of potential if you take advantage of the flexibility of jobs instead of only relying on one of their strengths.

Any mage of any race will be able to do just as well as one another if you just take away the drain on their mp. Using less powerful spells, casting less, using things like juices, taking advantage of refresh/ballad, fighting weaker enemies, loading up on +mp while healing items will all even the playing field.

[Silverquick]

Originally posted by UnnamedGalka
Silverquick, a lot of what you've said is factual information, but please, save your breath...we've heard it all before, and quite frankly, it gets downright tiring. Why are you so adamant about interjecting all this useless negativity into a "let's drop the elitism" thread anyway?

I don't know about you, but I play this game for fun, and I love the challenge of playing an effective Galkan mage. Sure, I don't have the racial stat advantages that, say, a Taru has (except having more MND than a Taru while playing WHM), but do these black-and-white statistics stop me? NO. I'm willing to work at it and compensate with equipment, food, etc...and because I'm I may not be the best mage (hell, I don't think the best mage even exists), but speaking with as little ego as possible, I'm still damn good at what I do...infinitely better than all those CRAPPY Taru and Hume mages that I've had to suffer with in my time.

Fine, you want to play it for fun thats all peachy, Hell I'll even invite you to a party as a Galka Mage if there's nothing else available, because I know you can do the job.

However, don't bitch about other people not accepting you when YOU are the one who made the choice to be that way. And outragious claims about Galkas being "better" or "just as good" is just more idiocy on the other side of the fence. Those other races out-stat you, out MP you and just about everything else and everyone knows it.

While you may be a better player than others... your Galka is not a better race than the others. And a pick up party doesn't know you as a player they know you as a Galka. That means they're tossing the dice with you invite wise right off the bat as to whether you really are a good player or an Idiot who doesn't know which end is up.

We all know who is better at its base, the Taru. And Galka is low end and you have to soup it up a lot more just to make it usable. You can do the job, but you just won't be as good.

This is what I said in my first post at the top of the page.

[GSDragoon]

Originally posted by Halato
I'm sorry, I gotta say this... I always get flamed for saying it, but very few jobs in FFXI take much skill at all.

I'm sorry, but this isn't chess or carpentry. Most "Skill" in this game is choosing the right equipment to fulfill a role. Seriously, look at most melee jobs and tell me someone couldn't play them correctly while drunk, high, medicated, one hand tied behind their back, or ten years old.

Are you serious??? How about a player that will only tell you their TP when they get above 100%? If they are way behind, the BLM can nuke more. If they are close the BLM will hold back untill the SC. Conserving MP for chains.

What about the DRK who likes to use soul eater whenever, grab aggro and waste tons of mage MP?

The THF or /THF have to keep track of the tank and secondary meele's hate. So they know if the mob can be turned from the tank or not.

I could go on with more if you'd like.

I recently started partying with a friend's dad. He's about 60 years old, and basically soloed RDM to 30 so he could open the samurai job. Getting rdm to level 30 took him about 6 months. He's JP irl, so he has an attachment to the samurai job.

Anyways, I level sam with him once a week, starting at level 30. The *Very* first time he skill chained, I taught him. The first session, we skill chained 2 times a fight for 2 hours straight. Guess how many we missed? about 1 or 2 over the course of 2 hours.

I don't understand. Are you saying he's dumb because he's old?

Now is when everyone calls me a bad player, blah blah blah, and that my stance on skill OBVIOUSLY means I have none. Do what you think is needed to make yourself feel better about your time spent in game... but this game was designed to be a low-brain power, enjoyable distraction from real life.

I don't know about you, but I spend most of my day around stupid people. At school, work, ect. Everyone is laid back, doesn't care about anything. All their conversations are pretty stupid with no intelligence behind them. I'm tired of hearing about all the stupid things people do while they are drunk. FFXI is the opposite for me than you. You can do a lot of research for FFXI. Do I choose 5acc or 3str when I use sushi? I parser fights and discuss them with others. Honestly, I use more brain power during FFXI than most other places.