Announcement

**LadyPeorth** · 01-20-2005, 10:53 AM

Welcome to my state of mind. The gear requirements some people place is absolutely absurd. If you do your job (MNK/DRG/SAM/RNG/BLM = make the monster fall down, PLD/NIN = keep the monster from examining other people, BRD/RDM/SMN = support the party with spells/songs, WHM = heal...or RDM or SMN could do healing too if WHMs are in short supply)and do it decently well, I couldn't care less if you're using gear 5 levels old and not super HQ.

**Halato** · 01-20-2005, 12:47 PM

No offense, but if you aren't JP, you can't speak for their culture based on the observances of a few JP's in your LS. Even if you were, it would only give you more credibility to speak for the culture, but no more authority.

The whole "Skill>Equipment>Race" thing has been beaten to death, and I can tell you that I've never seen a level 75 rdm suck at their job... or a 75 drk... or a 75 mnk... But race, gears and performance do vary greatly.

The best example I can give about this is a friend of mine. We're both level 75 monks. I've been level 75 longer, but I'd say we're of equal skill. I've had time to accumulate more top-tier gear (rare/ex stuff) so my numbers are always higher. I'm also one of the "Ideal" monk races... end result is that my numbers are consistently better when dealing or taking damage. He/She isn't a poor player, I consider him/her my equal in every way. Am I a better player? No. Is he/she gimp? No.

I have as much of a beef with the "Elitists" as I have with the "Unrealistics." The Elitists think only certain races can play a job well, and need <insert uber gear here> to be worthy of playing the game. The "Unrealists" think any race can perform any job equally well, and "Skill" makes up all equipment deficits.

Our goal should be somewhere in the middle. Weigh the cost of a piece of gear VS what it will grant you. At some point in your character's career, that +1 str will be worth $1,000,000 gil to you- but only you should be the one to decide when.

Understand that if you play a taru melee or a galka mage that in the endgame there will be a difference in damage/MP/HP/stats than the "Ideal" races in equal gear, but it will be miniscule. Denying altogether that there is a difference is foolhardy. Thinking that any race can't fill a specific role in a party is wrong if the player is intelligent.

**Feenicks** · 01-20-2005, 01:28 PM

It's true that JP don't have this elitism. Because of my timezone I log in during JP prime time, when 90% of the NA players are asleep or at school. Consequently all my FFXI friends are JP, along with my LS, exp parties etc. JP don't expect people to have the absolute best equipment for exp parties and the like. Don't get me wrong, if I showed up to an exp party with only Doublet and AF hammer I probably would attract some protest, but I am by no means expected to have Verm Cloak, Astrals etc.

Why? Because they know that for a functional and efficient party equipment is not the top priority. That extra +5 Accuracy does not make such a huge difference that it justifies kicking someone who doesn't have it. What does make an efficient party is player skill, party setup, location and choice of targets, and JP plan ahead when it comes to this. JP parties can take a while to set up, usually somewhere in the region of 20-30 minutes from scratch, because they look for people within a range of 2 levels, and the correct jobs for the task.

There are only a few occasions where gear does make a difference - Dark Staff I can safely say is absoutely necessary, for instance.

And for those who are thinking 'what are you talking about, JP bias against standard equipment all the time!', ask yourself this: When was the last time you saw something like (Haubergeon)O 2x(Sniper Ring)O in a JP search comment?

**Halato** · 01-20-2005, 02:25 PM

I do see these comments:

{English} = {Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.}

or

{English} {Perfect Dodge}

The simple reason you don't see JPs listing their Equipment in their search comments is because they don't use the translator. Why? Most don't want to party with NA's. That's not an exageration, most don't want to.

And as for your example, I've never seen anyone kicked from a party because they lacked 5 acc. You guys fly right from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other.

It's true that JP don't have this elitism.

Ugggggggggggg.........

I hear it's also true that NA's don't have poverty or homelessness.

**Cali** · 01-20-2005, 05:11 PM

Halato, as much as I respect you as a MNK, please refrain from talking about the JP vs NA here, I am not saying how much JP pwnz NA or whatever, I am neutral, there are enough qualities in both nations that I hate... so calm down please

**Kagerou** · 01-20-2005, 05:26 PM

I guess some Misconceptions that some NA players have is that having some uber gear automatically makes that person a great player. What I think is that equips are what allows the player to play their best. More of giving the player more oppurtunity to distinguish themselves. If two equally-skilled players are in a pt, one having noticeably better equip, that person will look better than the other, not because they have the equip, but that the equip allows that player to "play to their full potential."

**Feenicks** · 01-20-2005, 06:29 PM

Halato, this isn't really a JP v NA thing that I was trying to bring up, it's more the NA mindset vs JP mindset when it comes to equipment. JP don't put (Haubergeon)O in their search comments for exp parties because JP don't really care whether you have a Haub or not, they only care about whether you can get the job done. Super fantastic happy gear is a luxury which can help you, but the skill is the most important.

Some equipment, as I have pointed out, IS absolutely necessary, like Dark Staff and such, and JP players sometimes do put that in their search comment. But on the whole JP don't care if you don't have dual snipers or whatever.

And regarding the JP only thing - the leader of my LS started putting (I don't understand English) in his search comment two months ago, previously he didn't have anything like this in there. He wrote a short piece about it in his diary, and the reason he started putting this in his search comment was because he was sick of getting invited to mixed parties where communication was extremely poor between the members. The translator can be great but the truth is that no player (who isn't bilingual) knows the grammar of both English and Japanese, and so even using the translator it's extremely difficult to understand. The same goes for shouts for getting a mission party or whatever together. The JP players shout in Japanese because they want people who can understand what they have to say - he was wondering why NA players don't shout in English so they can have the same luxury of partying with players who can understand them 100%.

Another point he made was that a lot of JP feel that NA players only party with JPs because they want something done, and that they don't share the friendly spirit of adventuring and doing fun things together. I disagree with this somewhat - it's true on a certain level, but the reason why the JP population is so much more based around friendships and enjoyment of the game is because it's had the time to weed out all the players who player to be uberl33t, and my guess is that in another 18 months or so, the same thing will happen to the NA populace.

Personally I think that the auto-translator is the cause for a lot of anxiety between the two groups. Shouts like '(Paladin) (Artifact) (Eldieme Necropolis) (Help Me Out!) (Reward) 10000 gil' simply look terrible in Japanese because the translated words do not carry the same context that the shouter is trying to convey. I'm sick of seeing my JP friends laugh at shouts in Jeuno, and I wish NA players wouldn't do it because it makes them look not so great.

But anyway, this thread isn't about NA vs JP ... it's about equipment bias so I'm sorry for going on a tirade. Back to the regular programming from now on.

**Lynsy** · 01-20-2005, 10:33 PM

Some jobs are equipment jobs, some jobs are skill jobs...Some are a bit of both.
MNK, RNG...Those are equipment jobs. If your equip sucks, you suck at that job. Period. End of Story. No ifs, ands or buts. Skill impact is existant, but ultimately the only real differences are equipment differences. That is not to say that any RNG without EBow or any MNK without Black Belt is gimp and unfit to play that job. That is to say that the RNG or MNK with those items is better than one without.
PLD, WHM...Those are skill jobs. As long as you have your spells and basic equips, your skill will make the difference. However, if 2 players have about the same skill level, a PLD with a Kaiser shield or a WHM with an Aristocrats Coat will perform better than one without...

In general, bad players are bad players and good players are good players. The specifics of each job may be different, but the attentiveness that makes for a great PLD will make that same player perform well in most any job. The drive and understanding of how to properly equip a good RNG will generally carry over into dedication to other jobs. Not always, but usually.
Equipment differences, racial differences, etc are what I would call marginal. You will perform about average with average skill, average communication and average equipment. Improve any or all of those areas, and you will improve your overall performance. 5 Acc will not make a substantial difference; 5 Acc here, 5 Acc there, 5 Acc there will all add up to notable performance discrepancies.

Ive been in 75 PTs with players of about same skill and experience level. However, in PTs made of people with top of the line equips, XP range was generally 4-9k per hour, average maybe 5.5k. In PTs with people with average equips, 3-6k per hour, average around 4/4.5k.
Is it worth 100 hours farming to save 5 hours XPing? No, probably not.
Like it or not, those players with really good equips show something beyond just their equip--they show a dedication to the game. Those players that are dedicated to the game usually have more knowledge, experience and skill than those who are not. Not always, but generally.

IMO Equipment is like STR and Skill is like attack in the common damage model. Your equipment moves your performance curve up, your skill moves you up your performance curve. If you suck, you suck whether you are in a Scorp Harness+1 or Lizard Jerkin. But if you cap out your skill, only way to get better is make your equip better.

**modnar** · 01-20-2005, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Lynsy

Like it or not, those players with really good equips show something beyond just their equip--they show a dedication to the game. Those players that are dedicated to the game usually have more knowledge, experience and skill than those who are not. Not always, but generally.

Except those that bought their equipment using real money...

**Lynsy** · 01-21-2005, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by modnar
Except those that bought their equipment using real money...

Thats true, too >.>

**Kagerou** · 01-21-2005, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Lynsy
IMO Equipment is like STR and Skill is like attack in the common damage model. Your equipment moves your performance curve up, your skill moves you up your performance curve. If you suck, you suck whether you are in a Scorp Harness+1 or Lizard Jerkin. But if you cap out your skill, only way to get better is make your equip better.

My point exactly

**Pillow** · 01-21-2005, 07:15 AM

My timezone too, is JP primetime / NA dead hours, so a majority of my PTs are JP.

Most of the ones Ive met, wont have a go at you for not wearing a hauby or not even have an emp hairpin as a THF or something...gay examples but you get it (since they been mentioned in the other posts).

Although

You cant say it doesnt annoy them if you were a DRK without a hauby and Snipers (if they check you for those), I mean, they do, DO, get pissed off if you dont eat food. The ones that say why, is because "we want to have the best stats we can, and play at the best we can" (pretty much anyway).
A few times Ive had people not eat food (which is rare, especially at the upper levels), they have givin food to that player, which is a nice way of going about it I guess, but the players themselves sometimes take it to offense.
Things like WHM without a vermy, I dont think no one really cares, because that head slot MP+ can work out more efficient then the refresh of the cloak.
But a job like DRK for example, I think really do need to deck out in gear to keep up, Ive seen some gimp DRKs, and I was so amazed how much they missed the mob, and well sucked.

Like said, some jobs are about equip, some are about skill. More of the reason people say "I cant level without this equip" is because they know every other person their job has that, and they will be chosen over the "gimp" one.

This reply mainly about the "JP dont care" comment/s.

Excuse spelling errors if any, its late D;/

**Cali** · 01-21-2005, 08:37 AM

I guess I forgot to say, I am not referring to the 'endgame' stuffs, but EXP PT... I don't think anyone would dare to go to gods and such with a leather armor and an onion sword...

Equipment job

have you really played either of the job?

;;; I noticed little to no difference in my performance, from when I was using my sucking purple belt, and my brown belt... it's simply to look cooler... so, basically, monk should somehow be able to get ochiudo kote at lv34?

; the NM isn't soloable til 48 or so, mining isn't much of an option, unless the monk mined in pal mines, which have crap drops, fishing will take a year, which I doubt any new players would want to do that, I doubt anyone here played their 1st job to 75 with all HQ gears(1-75) that they demand of people either... so I guess, the new players would have to camp a few monster signa to get enough, no wonder so many people camping it daily

But hell, I don't know, for me, it's the worst thing for me to do, to kick someone out for not having the <insert uber equip>, but having the up-to-standard equip... even if I have the best gears, I wouldn't demand others to do the same. Why? I can get good exp(yes, amazingly same exp as godly equip PT) and fun still with a PT of people using standard gears... Why wouldn't I say 'I spent 10 months farming for my uberness, so you should spend the same too, or it's unfair to me'? Because, I chose to spend my days on farming, just to get the 1337ness, so I can show off... no one forced me to do it, and I don't think I should force anyone... If I decided to sleep around, and get AIDS, does that mean everyone should get AIDS, or it'd be unfair for me..?

'JP don't mind' apply to the 'you must have <insert impossible-to-obtain gears, but you need it because some lv75 has it on their 2nd or 3rd job>'... If you can't even do the basic, you are a leech.. but if you don't have the omfgwtf1337 gears, you can still make up for it with your skills, which is what's important. And that, JP never gave a damn about it...

And to begin with, game is about having fun, not working and stressing yourselves like Mr Gil Farmer, right? At least to me, I play games to have fun, not so I get extra stress to have me pulling my hair out, or cutting my arm over losing a NM claim.

**Halato** · 01-21-2005, 10:43 AM

Halato, as much as I respect you as a MNK, please refrain from talking about the JP vs NA here, I am not saying how much JP pwnz NA or whatever, I am neutral, there are enough qualities in both nations that I hate... so calm down please

#1- I did not bring up JP vs NA, you did. Making broad sweeping claims about a culture that are basically grounded in limited experience will always get refuted by someone. It already did above, in much more concrete terms than I listed.

#2- I did not state why JPs prefer not to party with NA's, I suspect it's mostly communication issues. The point about {perfect dodge} was to illustrate that it's the only thing JPs use the translator for in search comments. My entire point was... if you don't read JP, then you have no idea if they are listing their equipment or not.

#3- It is *VERY* common for JPs to list their stats. When I see:

+30 {accuracy bonus} I assume they are talking about their equipment.

#4 There is no reason to tell me to calm down- if I were upset I'd be cussing, calling names, and trying to punch people in their virtual nuts.

Look, it's very simple... All gil selling companies have a JP branch, too. Originally, all gil selling companies were JP. Claiming that JPs don't think the same about gear and such is rediculous. Idiocy, ELITISM, and shortsightedness crosses all cultural divides.

Announcement

Isn't it about time to drop the elitism and enjoy the game?

Isn't it about time to drop the elitism and enjoy the game?

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