Isn't it about time to drop the elitism and enjoy the game?

[Halato]

See, everything you described, I would classify as a something shitty players do, and not something that "Skillful" players avoid.

If you are a melee, and can't learn to announce your TP periodically, follow skillchains, and control your hate (when appropriate) then you're a Friggin' goon. If you *can* do those things, you shouldn't expect some reward, or expect people to think you have some innate playing ability that makes you cream of the crop.

I could go on with more if you'd like.

Don't bother, everything you list is child's play. Don't make it out to be more than it is. It's EASY to do that stuff.

I don't understand. Are you saying he's dumb because he's old?

No, I'm saying he's not a member of the video game generation and yet he learned how to party with a sam perfectly in 2 hours. It's not a rag on someone to COMPLIMENT them on breaking something that is in general considered a generational gap.

FFXI is the opposite for me than you. You can do a lot of research for FFXI. Do I choose 5acc or 3str when I use sushi? I parser fights and discuss them with others. Honestly, I use more brain power during FFXI than most other places.

I suppose that's the biggest difference then. I spend my whole day racking my brain dealing with routers and switches and group policy, then meet with people that I basically think have the IQ of Stephen Hawking. The challenges I meet at work are real, and the people I'm surrounded with take it very seriously. Challenges in the real world change from one day to the next for me. I log into Vanadiel, and largely nothing is different. Another day, same grind. Another day, different BCNM, but my job in it remains largely the same. You'll never hear "For this BCNM, we found that all the melee's needed a mage sub because..."

I'm not saying I don't enjoy FFXI, or think it's not fun... Or even that there's not a lot to learn. There is. I invest all my free time in experimenting with gear and foods. Doing pick up parties with strangers even though I have a static. Sometimes, when I was leveling to 75 the first time, I would PT and suicide off the exp. Why? Because I was curious about other jobs and party configurations at a certain level but couldn't get ahead of my static.

But bottom line... a bad DRK in good equipment that is willing to take feedback ( "Hey, wait for me to give the signal for soul eater, we're going for chain 5 or 6 this round." ) Is infinitely better for your party than a drk in bad equipment, even if he is the best player in the game, even if he needs no guidance.

I mean, christ, every DRG I know thinks it takes skill to set up fuidama and shake off the hate with super jump. That's like.... 2 macros that you will press 9000 times on your way to 75. I'm not ragging on drgs, it's a very similar style to monk except monks can't shake hate in the same way. But to say that's skill? huh? So what if there are 5 other things JUST LIKE THAT for drgs or mnks to do... they are still SIMPLE TASKS.

Do I think it takes skill to play a sam, mnk, dd war, drg, drk? Not anymore than it takes to learn in a day, if you can introduce a new player to the situations that may arise. I applaud that you parse and discuss, I do the same thing. But there's nothing I've learned from doing that that I couldn't have surmised by previous experience.

There are bad players out there. Most of those simply disapear at level 60 though, and after that you are left with melee's that have good gear, and melee's that have bad gear. Pretty much all know how to perform their job correctly (AKA SKILLFULLY!). The game isn't hard, it's just HUGE. Having a zillion things to learn is the fun part of it, but most of it is useless knowledge, with no practical application in the real world or even in game.

[Faranim]

I agree with all of Halato's points.

The sad truth is, the majority of NA players don't have what you would consider "basic playing skills."

There is so much to talk about with this topic, so I'll try and narrow it down to a few points:

Subjobs:
The problem with subjobs is that they are one of the only things visible to a party leader when you a LFG. A Leader looking for members can't see your gear, or your skill. However, this problem generally falls into two categories:
#1: Players who are too lazy to level up other subjobs.
I'm talking about the DRG/SAM who doesn't want to level WAR. Or the RDM/SMN who rants and raves about how good /SMN is but doesn't even have a level 2 WHM or BLM. These are the people who I shun. The fact that they use gimped subjobs is irrelevant, it is the player themself that is at fault. A Level 40 MNK who won't even admit that subbing WAR has more benefits than subbing SAM at that level doesn't belong in a party.
#2: Players who have other subjobs available and/or realize that their current subjob may not be the best choice. Typically these people have other subjobs available, or realize and admit that other subjobs would be better, but they haven't leveled them up. As long as they have some sort of remotely usable subjob, I would still invite them. (i.e. DRG/SAM, but not DRG/BRD).

Skill vs Equipment
#1. Skilled players realize the importance of good equipment, and will make an effort to improve upon their equipment in the most appropriate places.
#2. Poor (as in, rediculously old / outdated) equipment is a sign of poor skill, and/or a lack of desire to improve. Players who don't wish to improve upon themselves are lazy and don't deserve to advance in FFXI.
#3. Like stated previously, Mages: Skill > Gear. Melee: Gear > Skill. This doesn't mean that a Melee in good Gear will always outperform one in average gear. Or that a skilled mage will outperform a well-equipped one.

Skill and Equipment go hand in hand. For the large majority of cases, players who are concerned about their performance will seek better equipment, and wish to improve upon themselves. Unskilled players will slack on equipment or give excuses (such as "too expensive" or "I don't like farming") resulting in poor performance.

Party Dynamics / "Basic Playing Skills"
Sadly, This is the biggest one of all. Virtually all of the "bad" members I've had in my parties suffer from one or more of the following:

-Party leaders who make poor party configs. This can range from poor job choices, to poor level ranges (39 Melee + 42 WHM), and more.
-Party leaders who don't know good places to camp, or ask questions rather than give directions. If you make a party don't ask them "Where is a good place to EXP for this level?" or "What skillchains can you/we do?"

-DD jobs who don't understand basic party dynamics such as giving TP calls frequently, or after your skillchain partner gives theirs to acknowledge them.
-DD jobs who don't understand skillchains, when they are happening, how they happen, or when other party members are doing them. I'm talking about the people who use Fast Blade in the middle of a Piercing Arrow > Viper Bite skillchain, and ruin it.

-Players who are unwilling to take advice from other players, especially higher level / more experienced ones. Last night in particular I spent a good 10 minutes trying to convince my RDM that Meleeing in a party is bad, but to no Avail.
-Mages who don't understand basic job duties, such as Refresh and Dispel for RDM, Haste and -na spells for WHM, or Flash from Paladins.

-Players who show a general lack of knowledge about the game, or present large amounts of false information and refuse to believe any corrections to their information. "I heard that RDM/SMN is good" or "These mobs are the best exp for this level."

-Players who think that FFXI is a one-dimensional game, and that simple relationships exist like "Level 42 = Soldier Crawler in Crawlers Nest" or "Distortion skillchain does the most damage"


Unfortunately, Having poor equipment and/or a bad subjob, is virtually always accomponied by one of the above "Basic Playing Skill" problems. These are the biggest problems that plague NA players, and ultimately cause their parties to be much "poorer" in comparison to other, more well-prepared parties.


Edit: To tie into the thread title and original post: You can't enjoy the game when you party with morons. I have yet to encounter any sort of extreme "Elitist" which you have presented, but I have very often been viewed as one by others. I am NOT Elitist. I am Realistic in my choice of players when I form a party, or in the parties I join. I'm not afraid to say "This party sucks I'm leaving" or "MNK30/WAR5 {No Thanks.} {/disband}". There's nothing wrong with expecting a certain level of performance from your party members.

If declining a party because the leader is a moron, or members have bad / underleveled subjobs makes me Elitist, that's your judgement.

[Laehn]

Originally posted by Silverquick
Fine, you want to play it for fun thats all peachy, Hell I'll even invite you to a party as a Galka Mage if there's nothing else available, because I know you can do the job.

However, don't bitch about other people not accepting you when YOU are the one who made the choice to be that way. And outragious claims about Galkas being "better" or "just as good" is just more idiocy on the other side of the fence. Those other races out-stat you, out MP you and just about everything else and everyone knows it.

While you may be a better player than others... your Galka is not a better race than the others. And a pick up party doesn't know you as a player they know you as a Galka. That means they're tossing the dice with you invite wise right off the bat as to whether you really are a good player or an Idiot who doesn't know which end is up.

We all know who is better at its base, the Taru. And Galka is low end and you have to soup it up a lot more just to make it usable. You can do the job, but you just won't be as good.

This is what I said in my first post at the top of the page.

Remember, not all mages are as dependant on MP or even use it, this holds true big time at the end of the game when youre given acccess to lots of refresh items/abilities and your massive mp is difficult to exhaust and easily replenishable, despite race. Rdm and brds are the best examples. A taru doesnt have nearly as large of an advantage in those two situations if any at all. Especially so with brd considering none of the whm spells we use from our sub are particularly mp wasting.

Theres also the fact that races arent created equally with equipment. RSE is a big factor when youre comparing a Taru BRD and a Galka/Elvaan BRD. In those cases, a Galka or Elvaan can easily get much more MP than a Taru and land songs on monsters just as well.

[csBahamut]

Skill: 1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. 2. An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.

I mean, christ, every DRG I know thinks it takes skill to set up fuidama and shake off the hate with super jump. That's like.... 2 macros that you will press 9000 times on your way to 75. I'm not ragging on drgs, it's a very similar style to monk except monks can't shake hate in the same way. But to say that's skill? huh? So what if there are 5 other things JUST LIKE THAT for drgs or mnks to do... they are still SIMPLE TASKS.

One problem here. Just because it's a simple task to you, doesn't mean it is for everyone else. I've had people learn to renkei and MB on their first try. I've also had people never be able to get it right in a whole exp session. Not everyone has the same amount of skill. SKill isn't a quatity that's supposed to be measured relative to your skill level. There's absolutely no skill, and then on up (but skill carries no numerical value to it). Football players have more skill compared to normal people, but people who play backyeard football once a week have more skill than the people who don't play football at all. The same thing can be said about walking. Sure, every normal adult can walk, but babies can't. Adults have better walking skills than babies, but people just don't think of it that way very often. The gynist who can walk on a balancing beam, or tightrope walker, has more skill that the everyday adult.

And don't even try to say that sports can't be compared to video games. Sports require a person to evaluated a situation (see what's happening) and respond with the correct reaction in a span of time. Same thing in a video game. Something happens on the screen, and the person has to correctly react.

You could say that FFXI require less skill than most games. A fighting game like Tekken or Super Smash Bros. Melee is probably a more difficult game. Of course, this isn't true for everyone. My one friend is awsome at fighting games, but he sucks at all RPGs. He just can't make the right decisions in RPGs.

See, everything you described, I would classify as a something shitty players do, and not something that "Skillful" players avoid.

That "shitty" player still lacks skill.

When it comes to Galka and Elvaan mages, well, 20 extra damage on a nuke on a god is worthless when you only cast 2-4 nukes. And MP is only a problem on HNMs if you can't deal dmg fast enough. For exping, what use is an extra 100 or so MP at the end of a chain, if you never use it? Have an add? There's 2 spells handy for that: Escape and Sleep. Party composition really decides whether or not a job/race combination will work. For example, a Galka WHM is probably a bad idea for a WAR tank, but will do fine with a PLD or NIN tank (fighting the right mobs and the right combination of DD and support). Sure, a Taru WHM could prossibly do a better job, but what use would they be if you couldn't get one more chain in with the Taru WHM as opposed to the Galka WHM? If you get 5K exp/hr with the Galka WHM and the Taru WHM with the best gear they can have, then what use is the extra mage advantage of the Taru?

[Elsurion]

Originally posted by Pounce
That's elitism right there too, in a sense =P.

You and I might not tolerate a RDM like that, but countless people in game do.

There's a reaon why RDM, and even more so, BRD, are called "Quick Tickets to 75". I've seen more sucky RDM than any other jobs in the game, and they still keep getting parties.

I know, it is my way of elitism to keep up the battle music. Always Battlemusic on means nice flow of exp up to chain #6 with both jobs THF and RNG. But i can't stand a RDM who don't cast Dispel on the robber crap to lower their defence and/or refresh the Tank.

Sucky RDM: Refresh himself, dd, dd, dd, Refresh mages, dd, dd, dd, Refresh himself, dd, dd, dd Refresh mages, etc.

But you'll get skipped when you flag as rdm with nin supportjob, so you won't get always a party when you flag as rdm. Friend of mine made the test the hard way, now he levels blm.

sucky brd still gets instant party. brd is the cheapest job where you can kill your partys exp and still get partys over and over. But there will be a time where you'll meet the same ppl you sucked in party. I wonder if they will let him join...

[Silverquick]

Well here's one for you,

In EXP groups have never made it past chain 4 with a Galka White Mage. The last time I grouped with one was level 62 in Cape Terrigan killing crabs. They cannot compensate for a bad group MP wise.

Hume/Mithra and Elvaan Whm/Smn I have made it past chain 4 and into chain 5. They do have the MP to compensate for a bad group, but even they have their limits.

Taru White Mages, no matter how bad the rest of the group is, I can usually see consistent chain 4 and at least one Chain 5 before their mana starts to crap out, and in a good party we can get up to at least chain 6 possibly more.

While the poster above you is correct that Red Mage is a little different and requires a lot more balance allowing greater leeway for races, Elvaan can be very successful here because the three most used Rdm Enfeebles (Paralyze, Silence, and Slow) are very Mind Dependent and Elvaan can get larger effect out of them even than a Taru. This is probably the only Mage Job Taru do not rule because Red Mages are very stat dependent. Taru is one side of the spectrum with the int side enfeebles, Elvaan are the other with Mind Based, with Hume/Mithra in between.

But Galka don't have a sizable stat like Elvaan do to compensate for low MP, and due to even less MP than Elvaan, they have to use up more slots for MP related gear and can't make up for it. Even with Convert, which effectively doubles Red Mage MP, Galka still fall really short of the other races.

However at High levels, Hume/Mithra pulls even with Taru because Taru have more Magic Points than Hit Points... and cannot fill their Mana Bar back to full with convert.

But when it comes to pure magery... White Mage and Black mage, Taru still rule the field over all other races.

And I never considered the Galka mages I've met as bad players (Two exceptions), they just didn't have the steam to make it even with some pretty good gear on. Still chain 4 is good enough and acceptable in an average EXP group.

Galka can do the job. But... the car the player is driving simply has its limits to performance no matter how much effiency they try to squeeze out of it. The other races don't.

[Lynsy]

Im a Taru WHM with over 1300 MP with food. I PT with basically 2 kinds of tanks--PLDs and MNK/WARs. NINs I only do if its a friend and desperate (NIN is boring to PT with as WHM ^^.
In PTs on Aura Statues in Sky I can finish a chain 5-6 with either tank type and have 1100-1300 MP at the end. Every single time. I have almost never dropped below 800-900 MP no matter how fast the pulls were, what kind of tank, PT set up, etc unless I was spamming Holy/Banishga II/etc just to burn off MP before I leveled or out of boredom. I once died en route to Statues to Faust and was still weakened at the start of the chain. Weakened I have ~600 MP max pre-food. At the end of the chain, me playing roughly normally, I had 1200 MP.
What does that mean? I could play a naked Galkan WHM with nothing but a darkstaff and light staff and not really have a problem.
The order of significance of things for a WHM, IMO, goes basically MP Conservation > MP Restoration > Max MP / enmity > MND (situationally). If you can't figure out how to not burn more MP than is really necessary, then it doesn't matter if you're a Galka or a Taru, you'll run out of MP and need extra time to recover it. If you can't figure out how to rest/when to rest to get that MP back, it wont really matter if you're a Galka or a Taru, you'll still be struggling to keep MP up.
So why would a Taru WHM that just basically said she had 800 more MP than she usually ever needs and to rely on that MP is seneless still make the case for keeping it? Because I made a promise to myself a long while ago while playing this game--that noone would ever die because I ran out of MP (the reason was a really screwy situation that I took to heart). I can count the number of times in 10 months of HNMing and XPing WHM since then on one hand that its happened.
There are things I simply could not do if I had lower MP--it just doesn't happen to be anything "normal." A MNK friend and I like to duo Aura Statues (MNK/WAR Hume and WHM/SMN Taru) which would be fundamentally impossible if I had lower MP (Without 2hrs or items) or duo Chain 5 XP for ~180-230 in Kuftal or Bibiki Bay. These are things that do severely strain my MP, my skill and mental ability to keep up with situations. Having multiple adds in places you can not escape from, HNMs where I am healing with almost no support in that role where I need as much buffer MP as possible incase I must defer resting. Beyond the basics, Race/Gear/Food all mean virtually nothing as far as ability to perform in typical situations.
I used the analogy in my first post between skill/gear and attack/str. Now Id like to compare it to acc/dex. Why? Because hitting an Even Match Mob is easy no matter what Race or Job you are, whether you are naked or very well equipped--the only time it would pose any problem is if your skill is ridiculously underleveled. Same goes for accomplishing tasks--Any race/equip (within reason)/etc should be able to accomplish the normal "average" tasks--if they can't, than their skill is so low its almost beyond hope. The only time those Acc bonuses really make a significant difference is on the IT++ stuffs that you couldn't even fathom hitting without.
I could not do some of the shit I do if I was any other Race or did not have the equips I have. Period. Does that make me a better pure WHM than Id be with worse equips or as a different race? Yes, it does--to dispute that is misguided at best. Does it really matter if you aren't trying to do something that pushes the limits of both your skill and stats to a near breaking point? Nope, it doesn't. For most things, a Taru RNG with Archers and Normal Noct stuffs will fill the role about as good as a Hume with Hawkers+1s and Noct+1...Do the differences exist? Yes... Do they add up? Yes...
Its like taking an entrance Exam--If you are required to make a 75% to get in, getting a 99% doesn't, practically speaking, make you better off than the guy that got a 75%. Your ability to perform to a higher standard only matters when the standard is actually higher.
Elitist, IMO, are those that are standing there saying "You really only need a 75% to get in here, but Im going to arbitrarily make the requirement 95% so that people will think we are better." I know when Im doing anything (whether it be XPing in some unusal fashion or doing a mission with some friends or killing an NM) whether it requires a C style person or an A style person. I wont bring someone sub-par to anything, but I also wont require someone to be above-par to go either.

[csBahamut]

In EXP groups have never made it past chain 4 with a Galka White Mage. The last time I grouped with one was level 62 in Cape Terrigan killing crabs. They cannot compensate for a bad group MP wise.

Hume/Mithra and Elvaan Whm/Smn I have made it past chain 4 and into chain 5. They do have the MP to compensate for a bad group, but even they have their limits.

Taru White Mages, no matter how bad the rest of the group is, I can usually see consistent chain 4 and at least one Chain 5 before their mana starts to crap out, and in a good party we can get up to at least chain 6 possibly more.

Hrmm...if the group is getting chain 4 and 5, then the group really isn't bad. There's a thing called teamwork. WHen the party is able to adjust the way it's playing to make those higher chains happen, then they have good teamwork. If the group doesn't know how to adjust to having a Galka WHM, then it's the team that is bad, not the Galka WHM. Take for example my static. The WHM in my static is Hume, and he does all the curing. So he uses up a lot of his MP pool. There'd be no way for a Galka mage to do that in my party. But what's this? Hrmm...maybe if we had the BLM and RDM help the Galka WHM heal, we'd still be able to get those chain 4 and 5's? Hey guess what? It does work!

Im a Taru WHM with over 1300 MP with food. I PT with basically 2 kinds of tanks--PLDs and MNK/WARs. NINs I only do if its a friend and desperate (NIN is boring to PT with as WHM ^^.
In PTs on Aura Statues in Sky I can finish a chain 5-6 with either tank type and have 1100-1300 MP at the end. Every single time. I have almost never dropped below 800-900 MP no matter how fast the pulls were, what kind of tank, PT set up, etc unless I was spamming Holy/Banishga II/etc just to burn off MP before I leveled or out of boredom. I once died en route to Statues to Faust and was still weakened at the start of the chain. Weakened I have ~600 MP max pre-food. At the end of the chain, me playing roughly normally, I had 1200 MP.
What does that mean? I could play a naked Galkan WHM with nothing but a darkstaff and light staff and not really have a problem.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The rest of your post is valid too (though a little better explanation of the duoing could have been done). Sometimes that Taru MP is needed, other times, it's just a waste and a Galka MP pool would be enough. At even other times, that Galka WHM could be better (unable to think of an example ATM, but they do exist).

Galka can do the job. But... the car the player is driving simply has its limits to performance no matter how much effiency they try to squeeze out of it. The other races don't.

What use is the fancy car if you're driving through rush hour traffic and you maximum performance is capped? All those 'enhancements' of the suped up car are useless. For a race, the suped up car would win, but for getting to work on time, either car will get the job done.

Say for example, a race track was designed just right, so that the maximum speed able to be driven on the track was the max speed of the non-suped up car. Well, then only the skill of the drivers would decide which car would win. A similar situation could develope in FFXI. Say you have a good tank, but they start taking a ton more damage. Well, that Taru has all that nice MP to cure, right? Well, yeah, sure he does. But since the tank is taking too much damage, the WHM has to cure more, but curing more would mean taking hate off the tank. So to prevent that, the other mages, or the tank if a PLD, would have to pick up more cures. In that situation, a Galka WHM would still be fine. Since they can't use the extra MP because of hate issues, what use is the Taru MP pool? It has none.

It's really all situational. If you want to compare the two for between typical NA parties in the DUnes, Kazham, Garlaige Citadel, or CN, then yeah, that Taru WHM is going to perform better because the lower skill and teamwork ability of the party needs that MP for a margin of safety to deal with screw ups.

[Gman]

Quick point about gil needed for melee to advance.

I dont think melees truly appreciate how much spells really are until they go to level a mage job themselves. For my level 32 WHM, I dropped 40k gil on a couple spells like it was nothing, and they were spells you wouldnt even think of. Curaga 2, Barblizzzara, Barthundara, Cursna.

If you have a RDm and have both BLM and WHM leveled its insanely expensive. You are buying all the self buffs, and all the group buffs, all the single target nukes, plus all the multi-target nukes, elemental debuffs, etc, etc. if I had to take a modest guess of how much gil I spent on spells as a 66 RDM, 34 BLM, 32 WHM, it would be in the neighborhood of 1 Mil gil, and I havent even purchased the Teleport scrolls yet (I sold the mea, holla, dem when I quested for them because I didnt think I'd level WHM) or Erase.

The point of all this? When people say mages can just show up with a dark staff and do the job, they forget that while we dont have to spend millions on equips (although some choose to anyway) we do spend significant gil on spells, and pretty darn good equips, if not elite.

Value of my RDM gear:

Morion Earring: 80-100k
Wizards Earring: 100-130k
Zircon, Aquamarine ring: 30-40k each
Red Cape +1: 90k
Dark Staff: I paid 215k, its about 100k now
Ice Staff: I paid 90k, its much lower now
Light Staff: 100k
Master Casters Braceletts: Free gil-wise, but 40k CP has a lot of value.
Morion Tathlum: Skyrocketing lately, I got for 40k, its 100k now
RK Belt: 50k
Spider Torque: I paid 130k, recently jumped to 275k
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total value of equipment: 900k-1.1 million (and my gear certainly isnt top of the line)

Add that to spells, and all of a sudden RDM is not coming in so cheap anymore. parites take for granted that we have dispel, but dont really worry about how we got it. We are just expected to.

Sure 1 Habergeon is like 1.7 mil on my server, but really, that and snipers are the only items that are seen as requirements for DRK and SAM types. So about 2.9 mil or so. Up till that point, its cheap to be melee.

Interesting note: Raise 3 on my server now goes for 3 million!!! Thats one freakin spell. Next time you receive a Raise 3, be very, very thankful.

[Halato]

For my level 32 WHM, I dropped 40k gil on a couple spells like it was nothing, and they were spells you wouldnt even think of.

No offense, but have you checked the prices on melee food recently? I drop about 18k-40k per 6 hours of food use.

[jwalton]

No kidding. To be exceptional, I have to pay 27K for 6 hours of leveling with sole sushi on Leviathan. I'm leveling cooking so I can reduce that in the very near future, but... whatever.

Cry me a river, mages.

[Silverquick]

Hrmm...if the group is getting chain 4 and 5, then the group really isn't bad. There's a thing called teamwork. WHen the party is able to adjust the way it's playing to make those higher chains happen, then they have good teamwork. If the group doesn't know how to adjust to having a Galka WHM, then it's the team that is bad, not the Galka WHM. Take for example my static. The WHM in my static is Hume, and he does all the curing. So he uses up a lot of his MP pool. There'd be no way for a Galka mage to do that in my party. But what's this? Hrmm...maybe if we had the BLM and RDM help the Galka WHM heal, we'd still be able to get those chain 4 and 5's? Hey guess what? It does work!

No, you must have misread...

I said... I've never been in a group that has made it past chain 4 with a Galka Mage.

Its Hume/Mithra whm and Elvaan Whm/Sum that I've seen chain 4-5 out of...

And Taru ... Chain 6 and higher.

But at least I can see now you are starting to accept the fact that Galka quite frankly need help to perform.

Because that is the reason the Galka Whm groups I've been in don't often make it past chain 4, the More MP I as a Red Mage have to burn to cover for them either with heals or covering hastes for them... the more thinly my MP gets stretched.

That "car" they're driving is barely enough to cover the basics of the job... any extra... then I as the Rdm have to cover for. I don't have to do that with Hume Whms, let alone Taru Whm groups. Its the reason we don't make it past Chain 4 with Galka Mages.

That said... Chain 4 is still a general group standard, and if they can make it that far, they can at least perform the job in my eyes. I'll still invite them if nothing else is available, but they are not my first choice and never will be.

The Elvaan Whm/Sum, Hume/Mithra, and Taru i don't have that problem with.

[Icemage]

It's interesting to note that WHM is the most MP-intense of the mage jobs (and this the primary focus of this discussion). BLM would be, but other than Magic Bursts, much of what BLMs do isn't really time-critical the way a WHM's cures are, so they can spend a lot more time resting if needed.

What it really boils down to is party performance and the group dynamics. Every player in a group brings a certain amount of damage/healing/support/defense potential to a group. The reason Taru WHMs tend to make better parties is that they have additional MP available to cover when someone else falls short or makes a mistake (i.e. souleater at a bad moment). A Galka WHM simply does not have that option - for such groups to function effectively, the other mages MUST step up and cover for those times when you simply can't use your MP efficiently due to crisis management.


Icemage

[Gman]

Originally posted by Halato
No offense, but have you checked the prices on melee food recently? I drop about 18k-40k per 6 hours of food use.

No kidding. To be exceptional, I have to pay 27K for 6 hours of leveling with sole sushi on Leviathan. I'm leveling cooking so I can reduce that in the very near future, but... whatever.

Cry me a river, mages.

Ok, first off, I know changes have been made to the food system, but its not like the old food is useless. If you CHOOSE to go with the absolute most expensive food in Sole Sushi, so be it. If you go with Chief Kabobs, or something else, no one will hang you for it. Basically, dropping 40k for 6 hours of food is not an absolute must. If you want to talk about expensive, talk to Ninjas that have to spend 100k on Shihei per level, PLUS the cost of food and other ninja tools.

My point wasnt to make a pissing contest between mages and melee's expenses, it was to point out that it isnt cheap to be a mage. People only judge someone by their gear, and there is a lot more to a mage than gear. Melee theres nothing else... just gear (except DRK, but most DRK spells are cheap)

I may spend 1 mil + in spells but I do it over time, where a melee has to drop 1 mil on 1 item, so that kinda sucks for them. If you get good gear for your class, you will pay no matter what you play as. Yes, mages can get away with it more than melee, but people remember who is a good mage and who isnt, and that will determine invites next time.

[Yuanlung]

Originally posted by Gman
it was to point out that it isnt cheap to be a mage. People only judge someone by their gear, and there is a lot more to a mage than gear. Melee theres nothing else... just gear (except DRK, but most DRK spells are cheap)

So what they judge me by my geras? I say let them. Just to name a few pricey mage items I had to buy...


HQ Elemental Staves
Astral Rings
Vermillion Robe
Pentitent's Rope
Sapient Cape


You can deck your mage out with premium stuff if you wanted to. Some mages get cheap in the gear department because they get party invites anywyas, but I make it a point to keep myself up-to-date. IMO It's only fair for me to put my best effort into my gears if the melees in my party are doing the same.