melees and hnm an gods

[Halato]

You are right, warriors are the superior job.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Halato
You are right, warriors are the superior job.

Thank you for completely ignoring the whole point I was trying to make, never mentioning one class being supeior to the other but stating they have two different roles.

[Halato]

Look, I'm sorry for being an asshole about it... I know I was. I'm sorry.

But every melee has a story to tell...

Sam/Thf can do a weaponskill + SATA every minute, and if they seriously beef up their STR, the numbers are very impressive.

War/thf can put up the same numbers, slightly less often, and deal better damage between weaponskills.

3 mnks can take one alliance slot and deal 1100-1500 damage per minute and spread the hate between 3 people.

Drg/thf can deal moderate SATA damage and they have a pet that actually seems to ignore mob DEF *some* for more impressive DoT than anyone gives them credit for.

Drk/thf gains TP a bit slower than a war/thf but they trade that for having a stun.

All do much better than anyone gives them credit for... Yet, there's not an HNMLS on the planet that wouldn't trade 2 of any of those for an extra rng/nin. They deal spectacular damage, can modify their hate level easily, can kite better than anyone if the need arises (they have shadowbind and are at range to start), and can negate enough number of attacks that would kill most of the above jobs (6 at a minimum).

I have this theory that squeenix balanced the jobs by damage/durability/utility. If there was some way to equate those 3 factors, rangers simply blow all other jobs out of the water. That's what I mean about ranger being a broken job.

[ZQM]

And I agree. RNG is better in the long run. However, like you said, "All do much better than anyone gives them credit for."

I'm in at the start of the fight, I make Darkness for BLMs to burst and I place huge hate onto the tank. Then I disband for a RNG. In those 3-10 seconds, I am better then a RNG in that situation. I do more damag ethen they could do, allow the BLMs to burst, and place it all onto the tank. Ofcoarse, a RNG will easily outdamage that later, have shadowbind for 2hr, ect ect and will be the "best" looking at the whole fight, but WAR/THF still does shine even if it's only for a couple of seconds. A /THF at the start of the fight, skillchaining, and disbanding for a RNG WILL be better then RNG in all the time.

Ofcoarse, that's only Gods. Anything kited, RNG wins easily over all jobs, but in those situations WAR should be kiting. Against Faf/Nidhogg, RNG will do a lot more damage however it's arguable that BLM is better against them and melees create light for BLMs (Ofcoarse, RNG creates light but what I mean is that it's arguable if 2 WAR|DRK + 2 RNG is better then 4 RNG in that stiution) and in this situation a RNG getting hate is a LOT more dangerous then any of the above mentioned. And on Aspid, PLD in Koeing and Joyeuse tends to be best damage dealer. :p (Though that depends more on your strategy).

[kuu]

Except maybe the new dragons. Rangers are worthless more or less there.

Sam>all

as someone blabs out the first words when you ask about a so and so dragon.

OF course having solid backup works wonders too.

[kumaeru]

It does get rather annoying however when many melee are being replaced by Rng in main alliance in god/hnm fights.

And well I know Rng helps take down things rather quickly, which is all nice, but for how much work others put into their jobs and have a Rng replace them can be frustrating. Kirin took 43 mins last I did it from pop to drop (before this Steam Cleaner BS), using 6 Rng and 4 Blm. I actually chose to use a friends Rng instead of playing my own 75 Drk, and /follow "chase" kirin for TP.

New CoP dragons are hard, and Rng seem to only give it TP more than anything. Sam's do help a ton on Dragons.

Warriors are very good at hate gain with their WS' and enimty. But besides Gods/Kirin and minor HNM I dont see many War's actually tanking the big 3. A 2k dmg Steel Cyclone is certainly something worth looking at when killing Fafnir.

It is hard for a /thf to SATA WS onto a god/HNM yes. And its stupid when they lose TP cause mob goes away. However if the player knows anything about what he's doing, he will know when to use WS. KB still usually is just a Spirits Within fight anyways.


The "Classic" Kirin fight was to aspir all it's MP while kiting, and when it was 0, to then tank it and kill it like any other god. It is easy for Pld to tank. Ga4 and Stone5 is usually the problem with Kirin.

The New way of Kirin killing is to kite the entire time and kill with nukes and Rng's. While having Mnks or Sam Chi Blast / Spirit Within by swaping spots in alliance when ready. And having high damage melee getting TP and renkei'ing for bursts.

Although Rng can do 3 way Light rather easily, and Blms can just burst on that.

w/e though.. taru drk XD, least I got stun.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by kumaeru
But besides Gods/Kirin and minor HNM I dont see many War's actually tanking the big 3.

You mean the 3 Kings (Aspid, KB, Nidhogg)?

Aspid I'd say WAR is the best. The extra shadow lost by subbing NIN is eaily outweighed by maxing out haste. Also, WAR easily beats NIN in hate thanks to a massive amount of enmity. NIN normally can't pull it off of me. While EXP generally turns people off on how much +enmity means, you realize it when you start tanking HNM. Stacking it on, I'm normally up there with PLDs in hate when kiting Kirin.

However, this just allows WAR to build up hate extremly well. In the case of Fafnir/Nidhogg, you need snap-aggro instead of built up aggro, which is where PLD easily excells over WAR (And spamming cures onto oneself is massive, massive hate). Although I've never tanked him, watching the PLDs make me realize that all of the +enmity in the world doesn't matter if you don't have several tools to grab it back with. Not that WAR can't tank it, but in this case PLD is so much better. I'd still like to try at some point though.

In the case of KB, always asleep when he pops.

[Bigbird]

Rng > War!

[ZQM]

First time I've parsed a God run, we did 1 Seiryu and 1 Suzaku.

Suzaku:

Nny: 2523
WS damage: 1673

RNG:
Rooney: 4390
Vidaneai: 4161

BLM:
Sydok: 3168
Havocdemon: 3298
Nivlakian: 2425

SMN (Two SMNs there but both Levi's come up as one character):
Leviathan:2252

So as seen, RNG owned him (Which would be expected, since it's a Bird) but I hardly did less then then BLMs and even beat 1. Also beat the two SMNs combined

Seiryu:
Nny:1935
WS Damage:991

RNG:
Rooney:2744
Ishizu:2437

BLM:
Sydok:2253
Havocdemon:4455
Nivlakian:3885

SMN:
Leviathan:2575

Why bring up my WS damage? I was paralyzed for my first Steel Cyclone against Seiyru, cutting it's damage basically in half. Also, thanks to another Deadly Shriek at the end, I wasn't able to do a third WS. If I wasn't paralyzed in those two situations, my damaged would have been upped a lot. Hypothetically speaking, if I did 1673 WS damage like I did against Suzaku (682 WS damage difference), I would have done 2617...more then the SMNs, one of the BLMs, and one of the RNGs...and only 100 behind the other RNG.

I'd also like to point out I wasn't built for this. We were low on members. I was built for being in at the start, Skillchaining, then disbanding for a RNG. If I were to be built for a whole fight instead of being in for 5 seconds, my damage would have done a lot more. Next time I'll be bringing proper equipment and parse that.

So yeah, I wouldn't dismiss WAR.

Here's log: http://www.pplsdbz.net/~zquestionmar...005-Report.rtf

[Halato]

Well, if we examine what you posted above, we see that rangers attack from range (no paralysis for them), deal more damage, and can still sub Ninja without losing damage.

Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

I'm ok with them dealing a lot better damage than everyone else... But giving them attacks from outside of AoE range and the most defensive sub in the game just seems overboard.