melees and hnm an gods

[Kayoto]

A well-equipped SAM/THF will be among the top damage dealers on HNMs (Above or on par with MNK, below RNG, and BLM damage varies a lot with equipment). Chi Blast is a 3 min. timer for ~700-1200+ damage (depending on the MNK's MND gear), and Meditate is a 3 min. timer for 800-1200+ SATA+WS (depending on the SAM's STR gear). So.. no, not everyone else is a 'spectator.'

[Icemage]

Um... I'd really like to see proof of a 1200-damage SAM WS from anyone on any of the harder HNM or gods. As far as I've seen, even Tachi: Kasha doesn't hit for better than 1K even on XP-worthy monsters.

Sneak Attack is nice, but doesn't really add all that much damage when subbed (all it does is guarantee the first hit of the WS lands as a weak critical hit), and Trick Attack adds no damage bonus at all when subbed - all it gives is hate transferral.

That, and trying to land SATA anything on a kited enemy is enormously tricky.


Icemage

[poweryoga]

its possible to break 1k dmg from sam WSes.

http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=47889

Really expensive though. However even if sams do say 800 damage per SATA it'd be pretty good damage output considering they get tp relatively quickly.

[Brennon]

~700-1200+(depending on the MNK's MND gear),

this is my range for chi blast right now, and i don't have good MND gear, nor have i blasted with any etudes yet. No kirin osode, no kirin pole, no suzaku sune-ate, . . . hell i don't even have all the best MND gear that is bought on AH yet. (though, i'm constantly camping the AH trying to find it, and i'll likely start getting the god gear soon as well) . . . so i'm hoping that my range does up by a good bit when i Do get those gears.

[Mithrael]

To land sneak attack on a kited enemy, the tank need only stop for 10-15 seconds. It's simple, the person who starts the skillchain calls in chat "Light Incoming," the tank stops, first person goes, second person sneak+ws for light (or dark depending), tank takes off. Kirin doesn't do so much damage that the tank can't hold it for 15 seconds.

Sneak does add an reasonable amount of DMG when subbed for 1-hit renkei closers like DRK. Spinning slash on Kirin without sneak can be in the double digits depending on how the dice rolls. With sneak attack you see more respectable numbers (400-800 for me, but I'm not 75 yet).

The reason for sleep pots, as ZQM mentioned, is for efficiency. Can you do it without, of course you can. However, a DRK cannot gain 100% TP in less than a minute meleeing with a THF sub even with 100% accuracy. It's not possible given the delay of the weapon. However, you can have it easily if you don't mind spending 2 or 3k gil (a drop in the bucket) for sleep pots. Why not, anyway? The RNG are spending plenty of money for the fight, there is no reason the other melee shouldn't be willing to spend 9K for a stack of sleeping potions.

[Izual]

Originally posted by Icemage
Um... I'd really like to see proof of a 1200-damage SAM WS from anyone on any of the harder HNM or gods. As far as I've seen, even Tachi: Kasha doesn't hit for better than 1K even on XP-worthy monsters.

Agree completely, SAM can hit pretty hard on ws sometimes but I've never seen numbers in 1200-ish range consistently.

Originally posted by Icemage
Sneak Attack is nice, but doesn't really add all that much damage when subbed (all it does is guarantee the first hit of the WS lands as a weak critical hit), and Trick Attack adds no damage bonus at all when subbed - all it gives is hate transferral.

Definitely disagree here. Sneak from /thf does almost nothing for a regular hit, but it can make a huge difference on some weaponskills, particularly 1-hit ws with a high damage modifier. It also seems much more evident on very strong HNM. When my ls fights Tiamat or Jormungand I fight as drk/thf and use SA spin slash on them. I couple times sneak has missed and it usually hits for 300-500 damage. When sneak connects, I usually average 1100-1300 damage. That's a massive increase by any standards.

Originally posted by Icemage
That, and trying to land SATA anything on a kited enemy is enormously tricky. :p

Yeah it's a huge pain in the ass:p There's a trick to it though, really you just need some experience doing it and you'll get pretty good. My regular SA still gets jacked up a lot but I almost never miss SA ws anymore.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Mithrael
Kirin doesn't do so much damage that the tank can't hold it for 15 seconds.

Actually, back-to-back unresisted Whirlwinds/Sandstorms is around 2k damage in just a couple of seconds. Although PLDs don't have to worry much since they have high MND and a lot higher HP, as a WAR (And I'm sure NIN as well) this is what kills me most of the time.

[Izual]

There's no reason for a tank to ever stop running in Kirin fight, unless he doesn't have a choice (bound, slept etc.). Kirin's spells give /thf melee more than enough time to get a ws off. If you're really fast, you can also do it when he does the special ability 'heat breath' because it's casting time is a bit longer than his other abilities. Of course, there is always the possibility that he will turn mid-cast, but if you're watching what is going on around you, it's usually not to hard to time it up right.

[Mithrael]

Perhaps. I've only done 5 Kiring fights at this point, so I can't claim that I'm a pro. I've yet to see a tank die due to stopping, but it's certainly possible. In either case, it's not impossible (nor impractical) to SA or SATA close renkeis on Kirin.

[Asherek]

Originally posted by TheMidg
All other melee subbed in for spirits within

Not necessarily true. :sweat:

We have our melees (THF, DRK, WAR) do more then competant damage on Gods (excluding Kirin) without too much trouble. They can perform some very decent Renkeis which in turn help BLM's MB on Gods.

It's very nice to see when 5 BLM all MB on Genbu at the same time.

Originally posted by Kailea-D
I would not consider NIN as a tank..... the only reason NINs tank is because of Utsi and with out that they cant tank at all where as PLD and WAR can tank with out any skills other than voke

You have zero clue about what you're talking about.

NIN is an excellent tank; NIN, WAR and PLD all have their uses as endgame tanks. Get some real experience and then come back please. :spin:

and I am sorry but RNG is not "melee" it is range, yes RNG does physical damage but it should not be called a Melee class. Melee is a term used for upclose combat...and that is defenatly what RNGs do NOT do.

For all intents and purposes, RNG are "melee". Don't get technical with the specific semantics, this is merely used to group the various classes into categories. They don't cast magic, don't perform support and don't intentionally tank :D , so they're melee.

[Nodachi]

Originally posted by Icemage
Um... I'd really like to see proof of a 1200-damage SAM WS from anyone on any of the harder HNM or gods. As far as I've seen, even Tachi: Kasha doesn't hit for better than 1K even on XP-worthy monsters.

Sneak Attack is nice, but doesn't really add all that much damage when subbed (all it does is guarantee the first hit of the WS lands as a weak critical hit), and Trick Attack adds no damage bonus at all when subbed - all it gives is hate transferral.

That, and trying to land SATA anything on a kited enemy is enormously tricky.


Icemage

At even level 69. Used on same mob. SAM/WAR Gekko at 300% = 650 damage. SAM/THF Gekko at 300% with same equipment = 1015 damage. Me thinks it's a bit more than insuring a critical hit on WS. Mob was IT+ Dragonfly type in Dragon's Aery.
I've also seen a 1,400 Kasha on Genbu XD Not from me though.

[Halato]

Melee's do better than the pictures most people paint... but they have to have top-notch gear to do 1/4th as well as a ranger or blm.

The thing is... most melee jobs can put up similar numbers to ranger (or better) with their weaponskill against a god or HNM, But rangers can deal 100+ damage a pop on each attack, and melees just don't come close.

The truth of the matter is that ranger is a broken job. It's leaps and bounds above every other damager in any situation, and they can sub Ninja (the most defensive sub job in the game) and GAIN DAMAGE DEALING ABILITY FROM IT in multiple ways.

On top of that, they can attack from outside AoE range. Who's brilliant idea was it to make attacks from a safe distance also the strongest in the game?

Have a battle you can't win? Idiot! You needed more rangers.

To this day, I can't figure out if it's the ranger job that screws the other melees, or ninja sub.

[ZQM]

That's like comparing a BLM to a RDM on who's going to MB for more damage. Each job has a different role.

WAR's do the biggest damage WS onto the tank. ~1.3k damage coupled with ~800 damage Spirit's Within at the start and tank won't lose hate very easily throughout the whole fight. Can a RNG do that? And also means a RNG can go full out without having to worrying about getting hate.

DRK's can stun. While BLM can stun, when a mob starts casting -ga right after the BLM's start to MB, DRK's stun is irriplacable.

And something else I found interesting was that a RNG posted on another forum how a WAR was the highest damage dealer when parsed against Seiyru and Suzaku, while RNG won on Genbu and Byakko. In the case of this, the WAR had madrigral to help hit rate. Madrigal, Sushi, and Aggressor and a WAR wouldn't miss very often (I don't miss often as is with only Aggressor, never had Madrigral nor do I want to use a 3k food for a 5 minute fight. People make a big deal about God's evasion and it's really not that bad), Berserk and Double Attack for added damage, and add in having the strongest WS in the game and WAR's damage deffinatly wouldn't be bad

[Halato]

I think you missed the point:

That's like comparing a BLM to a RDM on who's going to MB for more damage. Each job has a different role.

WAR's do the biggest damage WS onto the tank. ~1.3k damage coupled with ~800 damage Spirit's Within at the start and tank won't lose hate very easily throughout the whole fight. Can a RNG do that? And also means a RNG can go full out without having to worrying about getting hate.

The simple fact of the matter is that no one really cares when a ranger gets hate at that level if they can shake it. They get 9 evaded hits before it even becomes an issue. If the mob has gravity, it's a non issue, the ranger doesn't even have to stop attacking. Shadowbind will stop a god in its tracks also.

And as far as a ranger being able to go "all out" after a warrior lays 1.3k damage onto the tank with a SATA... A ranger can basically erase that 1.3k whenever they want with sharpshot > barrage > weaponskill.... and then be very near to weaponskilling again.

If you parse a ranger and warrior against a god, and the war comes out on top, then it was a summoned god from Kirin, the ranger is holding back, or there is an immense equipment difference.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Halato
The simple fact of the matter is that no one really cares when a ranger gets hate at that level if they can shake it. They get 9 evaded hits before it even becomes an issue. If the mob has gravity, it's a non issue, the ranger doesn't even have to stop attacking. Shadowbind will stop a god in its tracks also.

9 shadows wear rather quickly against Gods without Haste (That's even if you can get off :Ichi in time, a God turning to you and Double attack while your mid shot won't give you a lot of time at all to get Ichi off). And it can become an issue before then. I'm sure the RNG would love to have a Diaga/Triple Attack>Razor Fang, Poisonga>Heabutt, Fang Rush, or Suzaku's/Seiyru's 2hr activating onto them. Most of those put a tank into Red HP, those are going to kill the RNG (2hr's depending on how fast stun/bind+run away happens).

And you're also leaving BLMs out of the picture.

And as far as a ranger being able to go "all out" after a warrior lays 1.3k damage onto the tank with a SATA... A ranger can basically erase that 1.3k whenever they want with sharpshot > barrage > weaponskill.... and then be very near to weaponskilling again.

With 1.3k onto the tank and 800 from Spirit's within, that voids the RNG going all out (RNG WSs are extremely weak (And while Slugshot is "ok", you're also risking missing if you don't have a BRD) and barrage isn't all that good when talking about burst damage. EXP they rape, but this isn't EXP). Then you add in everything else the tank does void out the RNG normal attack. Can the RNG do that and not get hate without 1.3k damage onto the tank? No.