Why don't YOU invite job X into YOUR parties?

[Ashtyr]

And there's also the issue of equipment. If the Samurai and Dark Knight are similarly equipped, OF COURSE the DRK will deal more damage. Are some of you retarded? It's obvious, since DRKs are the strongest melee class in the game. However, even with similar equips DRKs outdamage me by an average of about 80 damage per fight. It stacks up, but it's not enough to write home about.

[Mursk]

I never said Dark Knights were worthless, someone has an inferiority complex..

[supertle]

Originally posted by Ashtyr
And there's also the issue of equipment. If the Samurai and Dark Knight are similarly equipped, OF COURSE the DRK will deal more damage. Are some of you retarded? It's obvious, since DRKs are the strongest melee class in the game. However, even with similar equips DRKs outdamage me by an average of about 80 damage per fight. It stacks up, but it's not enough to write home about.

drks are NOT the strongest melee class in the game, a drg can outdamage us easily in raw dmg, a mnk can outdamage us in DoT
but drks spells make it up, granted i'm only lvl59, i don't know much about lvl60-75 until i experience it myself, but up to this point, if all similarly equipped, drg & mnk > drk > sam in terms of raw dmg,

won't invite thieves. Their damage isn't good enough to warrant mucking about with positioning. I also won't invite ninjas, because they "require" thieves. Sure an excellent ninja can hold hate without, but how often do you run into an excellent ninja? Also, mnk+thf = crap until I get howling fist. Once I get howling fist, opinion will probably change

This i can understand. A nin tank is hard to deal with but a good one and with a THF is an amazing combo if they're good. I have dealt with a few terrible nin tank exp so i probably won't invite nin/war tank ever again.

I won't invite summoners. I don't think their summons do anything worthwhile for a party except fenrir. How many smn have fenrir? Most don't. Even with fenrir I'd only take them if the best I can do mage wise is whm+rdm.

you oughta go read the whm and smn forum, a good smn does not need fenrir and i believe they're just as good as a whm if not better b/c of their larger mp poool

I very much dislike inviting blm. Their damage is incredibly overrated. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming my log parser doesn't count magic bursts, rangers always outdamage them, and I, as a mnk, outdamage any given blm in 75% of fights. The only time blm really pulls ahead is with a magic burst in excess of 800 damage, and at my level that requires the horribly inefficient ancient magic. I suspect things to change when I party with blm that have more than water 3 though.

overrated? i don't think so, your opinion went out the door with this paragraph, anyone playing the game would see the HUGE difference in having a BLM in a party, the ONLY replacement for a BLM is a RNG, and that's the ONLY alternative to a BLM, anything else is inferior, blm dmg wise is very good and don't forget their enfeebling spells like Bio/shock/frost etc! A rng is rare to find at high level

Since I don't like blm much, I'm not a big fan of sams either. Low DoT, and low damage ws's to boot.

SAM doesn't go high on my list but i will invite them, b/c usually in a party i prefer ONLY to have 3 melees including the pld, and usually everyone else gains tp a lot slower then the SAM, i like the SAM to be able to SC separately TWICE with 2 other melees so more burst, so usually sam doesn't get into my pt unless i know them or i have a 4 melee pt

I don't like drg much. Great DoT, but the only good ws they get is double thrust to start distortion. And getting them to do this after they get pentathrust is like pulling teeth. Spirit link is also total balls. Every healer I know hates having to blow a good cure to keep that dumb wyvern alive, especially since it messes with autotargetting, and just plain gets in the way.

i have never been in a party post 40 where someone insist on doing a WS on their own. if they do, they get kick out of my party so fast. Only team players in my party. Double thrust is a good WS.

Best party I ever had was pld mnk rng rng whm brd. 4k an hour, no downtime.

lol, and you're bragging and so opinionated??? 4k/hr is STANDARD by lvl55 i think. i have tons of various combos that gets me 4k/hr. I think my best was 6k/hr, and that involved a rng/drk/pld/war/brd/blm .. i'm surprise you can't do better then that with 2 rangers. i think if you replaced that MNK with a BLM, you probably would've.

Oh, I really hate dark knights too, but only on forums. In game I like them, but tend not to invite them since drks and mnks don't really skillchain all that well. Best we can manage is shadow of death > raging fists and most darks hate shadow of death. It'll get a bit better when they have guillotine though. No comment on great sword ws's as I have honestly never partied with a dark knight using one. I may have seen a war do freezebite once maybe in yhoator perhaps. Anything oast that is unknown (other than all the people singing the prasies of spinning slash). I don't invite other monks either because another monk means one of us is going to be doing shoulder tackle and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

from 56-59 i been partying with this mnk a lot and we sc pretty good along with magic burst, i believe we do fragmentation instead of distortion to the mobs instead,

RNG are hard to find, so i see them as a luxury to have, i would take a rng over any other class right away, so your ideal party of having a RNG RNG is likely very low, and you're pretty much dissing every other job out there, who do you actually invite into your party, i bet NONE b/c u are not the leader! good leaders know what to invite to benefit a party and also to what's AVAILABLE at the given moment,

lets talk about people i will not invite EVER

drg/drk --> saw 1 in garuda, i asked him what's the benefit of it, no reply, he was talking to me until i asked him that

whm/brd -> no thank you,
drk/anything else other then a WAR/THF sub is a NO NO

any combo with a melee and mage mix, no thankyou

basically if you're not a "cookie cutter" job, i will not invite you,
and i pretty much have created 90% of my parties since lvl50+

[Hisdon]

actually in a 2 mage pt a DRK/WHM can be a great combo...no other melee can sub /WHM and be able to back up cure like a DRK can thanks to our MP pool to start with (PLD"s can't do it, we all know why)

[Elsurion]

Looks like you played with very poor THF so far, but i and my friend THF still outdamage DRKs by far.

Ok we are only 52 and 56, not the 60+ area.

And whenever i play RNG i require a THF in the party for proper Hate otherwhise i can't pin the mob down w/o getting hate.

I played with a PLD, DRK and RNG and guess what RNG didn't needed to hold back even DRK was going to do his fullest dmg. And no, PLD did not loose the hate, even i did the second SATAnVB on the DRK. Damage output was about 1500dmg to 2000dmg on nearly every mob only from me.

my ideal pt setup is PLD or NIN, THF, RDM,RDM, SAM, DD (RNG or DRK or WAR).

I prefere a dubble RDM over a snobby WHM, since two convert means no downtime and i can disengage about 5% to 2% healt of the mob and pull nonstop. Including chain #5.

And i prefere the SAM more for their ability of fast TP gain. you can SC with them at anytime.

DRG has one thing i don't like, that's their dragon. for me as thf it's important that i get a clear view and no dragon in the way. SInce i have to place about 400 to 600dmg hate.

Other not mentioned classes are optional if anyother isn't avail.

[Arkadya]

you oughta go read the whm and smn forum, a good smn does not need fenrir and i believe they're just as good as a whm if not better b/c of their larger mp poool

To be frank, a well played whm with a good pld or nin tank won't have any sort of mana problems. My static whm almost never dips below 300 and really doesn't have issues. As for summoner abilities, I don't really care about any of them outside of blinkga and fenrir's acc up. Blinkga and stoneskinga aren't really all that good considering nobody but the tank should be getting hit anyway.

I will concede that in a party where one must set up SATA, a smn becomes much more useful.

overrated? i don't think so, your opinion went out the door with this paragraph, anyone playing the game would see the HUGE difference in having a BLM in a party, the ONLY replacement for a BLM is a RNG, and that's the ONLY alternative to a BLM, anything else is inferior, blm dmg wise is very good and don't forget their enfeebling spells like Bio/shock/frost etc! A rng is rare to find at high level

After rechecking some of the logs I have laying around, I still have to say they are overrated. On a per fight basis I win out over blm 60% of the time. That is nowhere near warranting the "omg must have right now or the party fails" attitude a lot of people have about blm. I like them, they are an excellent damage class, but hardly a party breaker. That said, I will take one or a rng, whichever is laying around. Rng always has preference however

And rng are dirt common on my server, believe it or not.

think my best was 6k/hr, and that involved a rng/drk/pld/war/brd/blm .. i'm surprise you can't do better then that with 2 rangers. i think if you replaced that MNK with a BLM, you probably would've.

Can't replace mnk, since that's me :p

As an aside, 6k exp an hour is incredibly unlikely. To get near that number you'd have to be killing 200 exp mobs every 2 minutes and have the next one already in camp when the next mob dies. A nin rng rng blm rdm brd is the only possible party configuration I can think of that could possibly, maybe do that. And there's a big assumption here that the nin has 20 stacks of the highest usable shurikens, and plenty of non utsusemi related powders becaue that's the only way he's holding hate over the rng This also assumes you are fighting either orcs, sheep, or rabbits, which are the only monsters weak to water, because your best skillchain option is sidewinder > sidewinder for reverberation with a water 3 burst. Sure you do do sidewinder > retsu for distortion, but ending with retsu is weak. You could swap out a rng for a thf and do sidewinder > vb/dancing edge, but then you lose the damage of the second rng. This is still probably better as orcs and rabbits have nasty AE attacks, and sheep are very annoying with their sleep ability. So fighting easier monsters usign istortion could even it out.

That's a lot of assumptions for 6k exp, this also assumes all members involved have spent in excess of 1 million+gil on their equipment (not counting spells or ammo or powders) with mandatory dark staves for all the mages. Doable, but hardly plausible, and deffinitely not plausible for me.

4k isn't anywhere near standard. 3k is "good" for a pick up party. 2-2.5k is standard for most parties where people don't think about how their party works together.

from 56-59 i been partying with this mnk a lot and we sc pretty good along with magic burst, i believe we do fragmentation instead of distortion to the mobs instead,

That's a terrible idea. Making your monk do fragmentation is a complete waste of your monk. Shoulder Tackle for 100-150 damage with a 75 frag or a 200-400 raging fists with a 75 impaction. Second option is deffinitely better, since the blm is going to burst thunder regardless. Unless you're doing frgmentation with a wind burst, in which case vorpal scythe > backhand blow will still serve you better. Only decent fragmentation enders are sidewinder, sturmwind, and raging rush.

RNG are hard to find, so i see them as a luxury to have, i would take a rng over any other class right away, so your ideal party of having a RNG RNG is likely very low, and you're pretty much dissing every other job out there, who do you actually invite into your party, i bet NONE b/c u are not the leader! good leaders know what to invite to benefit a party and also to what's AVAILABLE at the given moment,

I don't make parties unless the jobs I want are all available at once. This means me and my whm and pld friend, a rdm or brd, a blm or rng, and a second rng, war or dark. I'd also be more than willing to try out a beast but there are almost never any seeking.

It's all about time management, why opt for ok exp just for the sake of exp when I can farm. Or fish. Both of which are more productive in the long run than spending the night getting meh exp. Especially with the looming 2 million gil costs of upgrades I get hit with between 56 and 61 (spartan cesti 700k, spectacles 1.25 million, anemit mantle 100-150k, pallas' bracelests 300k, but the last 2 will be covered by selling off my kote). I still havn't gotten my second sniper yet, though I'm only one day of farming away.

Edit: If any blm would be kind enough to give me their average damage on an unresisted unbursted blizzard and thunder 2, and stone and water 3, I'd much appreciate it.

[Mursk]

At your level (which is comparitivlly low to be assuming high level job compatability) 4k might seem 'super cool' but 7k-8k an hour of a very well built/played party is VERY common, you might not be constructing your's right

[Rodin]

When my level was 30 and I was in a party, I stopped inviting DRK's into my party. For some reason they like to tank :sweat:

Berzerk ⇒　Soul Eater ⇒　Last Resort

That started to tick me off. I'm kind of iffy about inviting rangers too, they steal just as much aggro.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Arkadya
As an aside, 6k exp an hour is incredibly unlikely. To get near that number you'd have to be killing 200 exp mobs every 2 minutes and have the next one already in camp when the next mob dies. A nin rng rng blm rdm brd is the only possible party configuration I can think of that could possibly, maybe do that. And there's a big assumption here that the nin has 20 stacks of the highest usable shurikens, and plenty of non utsusemi related powders becaue that's the only way he's holding hate over the rng This also assumes you are fighting either orcs, sheep, or rabbits, which are the only monsters weak to water, because your best skillchain option is sidewinder > sidewinder for reverberation with a water 3 burst. Sure you do do sidewinder > retsu for distortion, but ending with retsu is weak. You could swap out a rng for a thf and do sidewinder > vb/dancing edge, but then you lose the damage of the second rng. This is still probably better as orcs and rabbits have nasty AE attacks, and sheep are very annoying with their sleep ability. So fighting easier monsters usign istortion could even it out.

That's a lot of assumptions for 6k exp, this also assumes all members involved have spent in excess of 1 million+gil on their equipment (not counting spells or ammo or powders) with mandatory dark staves for all the mages. Doable, but hardly plausible, and deffinitely not plausible for me.

Err, I've gotten 6k exp an hour at 53-55 with a setup for NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN (me), WAR/MNK, BRD/WHM, RDM/BLM, and DRK/WAR. This was in Kuftal Tunnel near CT entrance. No downtime what-so-ever. The puller always left before a fight ended and returned once the mob was dead, so we never stopped fighting. RNGs are overrated, just like BLMs. Yes, a good RNG will outdamage a good *insert class*, but 1) they have to be good and 2) it's not some OMGWTFBBQ times better.

And now at 60+ (with a setup of NIN/WAR, WAR/THF (me), WAR/NIN, BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM, and WHM/BLM) we kick ourselves if we get under 5k an hour.

[lun4tic]

Black mages can be very useful when fighting monsters that up their defense constantly. For instance, when you're fighting a crab, and it uses Scissor Guard and Bubble Screen(I think) you've been screwed out of damage. With a black mage you drop a couple nukes on it until the ups disappear.

Summoners are hella useful. Stoneskin, blink, random stat +10(sometimes you get a good stat up), warcry, enthunder, I don't think I can name them all.

Every class is useful. Except white mages, nobody needs them. >_>

[Hisdon]

Originally posted by Elsurion
Looks like you played with very poor THF so far, but i and my friend THF still outdamage DRKs by far.

that goes both ways if btw, what if they are playing DRK poorly? :spin:

[suzu]

Originally posted by lun4tic
Every class is useful. Except white mages, nobody needs them. >_>

You say that till you disturb another party and stop their flow of EXP because you want a Raise 2 or 3. >_>

[lun4tic]

Originally posted by suzu
You say that till you disturb another party and stop their flow of EXP because you want a Raise 2 or 3. >_>

<_<

[Pounce]

At your level (which is comparitivlly low to be assuming high level job compatability) 4k might seem 'super cool' but 7k-8k an hour of a very well built/played party is VERY common, you might not be constructing your's right

I'd like to request some tips as to how to do this.

I'm Lv61 Red mage right now, and my typical pickup party usually brings in 2000-2500/hour. I've been in a few parties that got to 4000-5000/hour but those have definitely been the exception, not the rule.

My theory (based on observation) is that having good, well-equipped melee damage dealers is the key to getting good exp, but that's usually not possible since only a handful (if even that) of melee in my level range have that sort of gear - dual snipers, etc.

Any other tips/theories?

The latest party that got me 5k/hour was PLD, WHM, RDM, RNG, MNK, BLM. The key difference between this party and others I've been in were the RNG and MNK were hands down amazing.

To address a few other possible variables:

1.) No, we do not go to a zone that is heavily congested with other parties.

2.) Most of the pickup parties I'm on are fairly standard configuration - tank (most often PLD), WHM, RDM (me), 2 melee, and either a BLM or a 3rd melee.

3.) No, I'm not gimped myself - I'd like to say my equipment is in the upper percentile of my range. The only thing that could probably make me better is Vermillion, and that's apparently questionable judging from the RDM board here.

[Elsurion]

Originally posted by Hisdon
that goes both ways if btw, what if they are playing DRK poorly? :spin:

I don't even mention poor played *insert any class*
Since they are just leftovers