PLD or NIN

[vudoodoodoo]

Originally posted by Dark Aphalite
AOE now eats through Utsusemi so PLD all the way!!

Bwahaha!

Horray for another job nerf!

[Kiyosuki]

*sigh* suddenlly there's been an influx of Paladin's bagging on me and other Ninja's I know of saying "Bahhah you are teh useless now!" So much for Chivalry, where are the REAL, honorable Paladins?

Ai, just watch, SE's probably going to give something to Ninja's that'll turn the anti Ninja bravado, into whining. Its they're style after all. I'd still love to see a day where Dragoons get something that turns the tables, and they finally get to unload all the anti Drg sentiment from Drk's they've received for many months now. I have no intention of playing either class any time soon, but it'd be sure funny as hell to see.

Don't laugh too soon Paladin's, the tables in this game can turn pretty easilly.

In the meantime, it shouldn't be that much of a problem. It doesn't hit you through the shadows like some think it does. It just takes all the shadows away in one hit, and any experienced Ninja knows that you can prepare for that with an emergency blink spell to be cast immediatly most of the time, but there is a window of opportunity for the monster.

I wonder what SE's trying to do with this, it seems like a very odd thing to nip at. I speculated with a friend that maybe it has something to do with trying to help fit Utsusemi San in somehow. I can't really pinpoint exactly what though.

[Abriael]

It's quite easy, they're trying to send ninja back to what it was supposed to be from the beginning, and that's not a tank. Blinktanking was probably supposed to be a situational skill and not a "spam spam spam" skill, unfortunately SE didn't consider the ability of players to exploiut things when you leave them even the slightest window. Now ninja needs to be healed, and there's no reason to have a tank that holds hate worse if you even have to heal him.

[Kesai]

Abriael, does it really burn you that much to see another tanking class? From the way your react when anyone brings up ninja I imagine you start foaming at the mouth everytime you see one standing at the auction house.

Also I wouldn't start celebrating until you see what else is added or changed in CoP.

It'll be amusing to see your reaction if SE justify's this change by adding another line of ninjitsu.


P.S. Here is a video for you to watch, it is a shadowlord fight with a PLD and a NIN in the same PT. NIN is tanking, PLD uses invincible + provoke before he can turn the mob away from the NIN. 2 seconds later NIN gets it back with a provoke. Enjoy.

http://mail.lovethang.org/shadowlord.zip

[Abriael]

Kesai, from the way you react to every single post of mine it seems to me that you're the one whose mouth is foaming... been outtanked too much maybe?

Anyway i'm not celebrating, i knew it woyld have turned that way, even because ninja is sure not something one (and even a sane of mind developer) would associate to tanking. It's kinda natural SE tries to correct an exploit, and since it's not their politics to aply hard nerfs like mythic does they're trying to do it in a soft way.

But if you wanna go on to believe to the ninja outtanking everyone fairy tale, so be it ^_^ it's your own choice. Lol.

[Kesai]

No actually, it's just your arrogant and condecending tone really.

Anyways, I will leave you to your own fantasy.

[Kiyosuki]

Well actually...a Ninja tanking isn't that far fetched.

Many players used Edge in FF4 as a damage draw, putting him up in front and enfeebling, then using image and attacking to attract as much enemy attention as possible. He was really useful for that.

And as far as real Ninja's go, the whole thing Tenchu does with the super assassin thing is actually not that accurate.

Real Ninja's were much more like ancient Secret Agents than assassins. Any average joe cut throat could be an assassin, but what made Ninja's special is that they served a varity of intelligence purposes the Samurai couldn't fill. They could fight straight forwardly to help soldiers or Samurai, or sabotage, or act as a stealthy bodyguard to someone, then they could assassinate. It was just a function, not the center of what they are. The Ninja's in this game are actually a little more accurate than if they were to fight like a Thief. They had a strategy and tool for everything. Backstabbing was hardly they're niche.

Ninja's were used as bodyguards very often believe it or not. The most legendary exploit of legendary Ninja Hattori Hanzo was that of a bodyguard, escorting one of Nobunaga's general's, his retainers and whole family outside of dangerous territory using his wits, his combat skill, and his intelligence gathering.

Ask the Secret Service, resourceful assassins can make one hell of a good bodyguard.

I don't think its all that un Ninja like for them to tank at all. If anything, its something a Ninja would probably do. Ofcourse a Ninja's offense would tend to be a lot more direct, furious, and deadly but they'd sure as hell use they're skills in deception and confusion to throw an enemy off balance enough for him and other warriors to destroy him in his moment of unbalance.

And less on the authentic side. When you play games like Shinobi, Ninja Gaiden, Strider Hiryu, Kunoichi, how do you tend to fight? You dodge like crazy and do a series of small but constant hits at the same time while throwing tactical tools and Ninja magic in at times. Thats not all that different from how Ninja's have been used in this game really..

in MMORPG's there tends to be two types of tanks. Defense point tanks, who use they're strength to take hits for the other members, or diversionary tanks, that use skills to "stall" the enemy and basically delay any kind of resistence. The meaning of a tank isn't just someone who takes hits, thats just one way of doing it. A literal meaning of tank in an mmo is someone who one way or another, negates the enemy's offense. If someone specialized completely in fancy parrying, they'd probably make a great tank too. So just because a class isn't the typical "man in insane amounts of armor" doesn't mean they arn't a tanking type. A pacifist who sweet talks Beastmen so much that they don't attack, so the others can strike when he's busy talking could be considered a tank. :D

[Abriael]

Originally posted by Kiyosuki
Real Ninja's were much more like ancient Secret Agents than assassins. Any average joe cut throat could be an assassin, but what made Ninja's special is that they served a varity of intelligence purposes the Samurai couldn't fill. They could fight straight forwardly to help soldiers or Samurai, or sabotage, or act as a stealthy bodyguard to someone, then they could assassinate. It was just a function, not the center of what they are. The Ninja's in this game are actually a little more accurate than if they were to fight like a Thief. They had a strategy and tool for everything. Backstabbing was hardly they're niche.

Actually all theese skills were based on stealth (wether by actual stealth, or by deceiving), sure not on openly facing an enemy like a tank should do. In fact, historically, when a ninja was discovered he had very small chances to survive, that's why ninjas were more than often sent in groups, they were quite expendable and if one was discovered others that followed different kind of approachs (but always with an high degree of stealth) had a chance of succeeding. There's basically no record of Ninjas acting "Matrix like" (or Utsusemi like) in the open avoiding every blow sent at them. When a ninja was discovered, whatever the mission, he basically was considered dead.

[Kiyosuki]

Yes but I don't think real Paladin's used White Magic either.

You gotta look at it from another perspective. In this game, the way fights are played isn't really exactly how it would maybe look if everything was shown graphically. Like Dragoons. How can Jump the way it looks in this game lose hate? I mean, you dissapear a moment then come back down with a big strike. Wouldn't that get hate?

No, because SE is obviously kind of modeling it after how Dragoon's in the basic FF games jumped for a minute, so the enemy couldn't attack it at all. It may not look like this in game, but thats what happens. Thieves are supposed to dart out of nowhere and strike with a devastating backblow. But thats now really how it appears in this game. The guy basically just stands in the back of the monster the whole time stabbing..like he'd never get noticed doing that. But even though it doesn't look like it in game, thats what the Thief is basically doing. Hiding around and striking at opportune times.

Its the same with Ninja's. Although in game it looks like the enemy's facing them, and you can't see the shadows actually dissapear (As insanely cool as that would look, it would lag bad.) what the Ninja is basically doing is having the enemy chase them around trying to catch them, but always killing a mere shadow while the Ninja appears somewhere else and attacks like crazy, only for this to repeat again. Meanwhile the other fights are attacking they're own ways, but the Ninja is keeping the monster on him confusing the hell out of him. Thats how Ninja's been so far. Its not really just standing there, its jumping all over the place and appearing in two places at once when attacked suddenlly. You can't get any more Ninja like than that. Just imagine this big beast constantly chasing this agile as hell Ninja who hits so fast, the monster can't retaliate.

Its just I guess they had to lay low on the graphical appearance of things so there wouldn't be too much lag, and so the system could even work I know it sounds strange, but thats how I see it. The way the characters appear to fight in game tends to not be like how they actually function. But just because the game isn't as visually dynamic as that, doesn't mean the characters have to act literally the way they look. Thats just because of how the system in this game works.

Although there's no spinninng piledrive drops from 200 ft in the air or mystical Ninja magic (though you never know..), Ninja's still did some pretty amazing things. Real Ninja's did perfer to use Stealth to they're advantage, but many times they fought a straight forward fight to aid a surrounded Samurai or Warlord. Sometimes straight forward combat just couldn't be avoided. They fought straightforwardly and dueled, but in they're own way. They loved to use leg speed and quick hits while playing dirty with smoke bombs and things like Eye irritation powder and blow needles. They also loved to use darkness to light trickery. The whole shadow image thing comes from that concept that your eye can't adapt from the light to the dark as fast and with deceptive moves, one can easilly play visual tricks on an enemy. Then they were known to use physical dummies too. All that stuff is actually true, Ninja's were really way ahead of they're time. Its interesting. Really if you think about it, Ninja's in this game do that. Its like tanking using Stealth. I'm sure if a Ninja tanked in a regular FF game or something more visual, it would appear more like this. Chasing this uncatchable shadow with pointy knives, not just standing there losing shadows you can't even see.

The whole combat system in this game if you think about it, is just a big metaphor. All the classes when they fight appear different in this game that what they would actually look like if they were completely accurate on they're styles.

[Nodoka]

IMO I think Ninjas were put in as an alternate form of debuffers while better melee DDs then RDM. I think if they got -san like debuffs and a dispell sort of ninjitsu they would be useful for that sort of thing better. :x

[Eyke]

i think pld is alot better, but i like nin as well

but would take a pld over it

[LawDawg]

Originally posted by Kesai
Abriael, does it really burn you that much to see another tanking class? From the way your react when anyone brings up ninja I imagine you start foaming at the mouth everytime you see one standing at the auction house.

Also I wouldn't start celebrating until you see what else is added or changed in CoP.

It'll be amusing to see your reaction if SE justify's this change by adding another line of ninjitsu.


P.S. Here is a video for you to watch, it is a shadowlord fight with a PLD and a NIN in the same PT. NIN is tanking, PLD uses invincible + provoke before he can turn the mob away from the NIN. 2 seconds later NIN gets it back with a provoke. Enjoy.

http://mail.lovethang.org/shadowlord.zip

umm... correct me if im wrong, but Invincible doesn't generate hate unless you already have hate... so basically the PLD pulled it off of you with Provoke, and you pulled it off him with provoke... whoop dee doo!

[Galka Warrior]

Paladin!

I choose PLD cause my brother is 1. ^^ And we're in a Static PT and hes really good at holding aggro for a Galka w/ low CHR.

[Kesai]

Originally posted by LawDawg
umm... correct me if im wrong, but Invincible doesn't generate hate unless you already have hate... so basically the PLD pulled it off of you with Provoke, and you pulled it off him with provoke... whoop dee doo!

As long as the pld is on the hate list invincible generates hate.

As the pld was attacking shadowlord, he is obviously on the hate list (and earlier on he used a voke + shield bash).

Read imac2much's pld faq and guide that is stickied on pld forum if you want to know more.


EDIT: that wasen't me in the vid, that was just one I happened to watch recently from Karg's video libary that I thought would make a good example.

[Stolin]

Reply to Lawdawg and Kesai - Being able to pull hate off each other doesn't mean one or the other is a better tank.

Galka Warrior: Just because your brother is one also doesn't make a better tank.

These points have nothing to do with being a better tank.