PLD or NIN

[Ithaqua]

. . . THF NIN RNG RDM BLM SMN. Lets see SaTA on the ninja and haste on the ninja. + 6 enmity before level 63... huh, what were we talking about >_> Nin isn't for the lazy whm BTW who said you need a WHM with a good nin.. As a red mage i can keep haste debuffs refresh and cures up because the ninja allows me to.

[Ljarin]

Given the choice I'd take nin over pld for pretty much every mob you can think of, without a doubt.

[Kesai]

Originally posted by Abriael
Malabmannop: You CAN hold hate as a ninja, but you can't hold it as much as a paladin, and this is a fact. This means yyour damagers will have to hold back more and the mob will take longer to kill.
As much as a skilled ninja can hold is ground for hate, a skilled paladin can allow damagers to go all out, killing the mob faster and reducing exping time. Moreover when a ninja looses hate he'll be slower in regaining it, and doesn't have any time gainer skills like cover. If damagers go all out there's NO WAY a ninja can hold hate. Guaranteed.
And please don't tell me about downtime, as soon as mana regaining abilities (bard and red mage with refresh) enter the game there's no downtime at all with paladin as well.
Ninja pwns all? That's a nice fairy tale.

You never really open your mind to other things do you?
Whenever someone mentions nin tanking you start foaming at the mouth. I'm suprised that your even willing to admit that nin's can get hate at all.

Nin's can hold hate fine, the drk in my pt uses soul eater without fear, the rng uses barrage without fear. When hasted nin's do plenty of damage. If the mob should turn for whatever reason, a few elementals or debuffs bring it back. Sometimes just casting utsusemi will do the trick.

Even with a pld tanking nobody in there right mind will want to unload everything they have right away and waste all of pld's 5 min abilities

With the amount of gil and effort a good nin tank put's into the job I think they deserve more respect then what the typical na population gives them. It seems that I get around 4 /tells from a random jp player wanting me to join there party for every 1 I get from a na player when I'm not seeking :sweat:

[Abriael]

Actually if you want to spend money to do something your job was not originally designed for it's your choice, but this doesn't earn you "respect" or doesn't make you the best tank in the game, nor it does make you "pwn all".
Using "a few elemental debuffs" gives the average mob plenty of time to kill a taru mage, and without cover you can't do anything but spam them and hope. And being able to hold hate with barrage and soul eather doesn't make you the best tank. If you think that a ranger is not holding back if he uses only barrage then you don't know ranger well.
You demonstrate not to know paladin as well, because paladin has plenty of hate generating abilities that can be rotated, there's never need to use all of them at one time. A paladin doesn't actually even need to hold hate forever, having cover that with AF lasts quite a lot.
i'm not telling that ninja is not a viable tank, but telling it "pwns all" is a plain fairy tale.

[Kesai]

Actually I know them quite well as they are in my set, nin/war, drk/war, mnk/war or rng/nin, blm/whm, brd/whm, rdm/whm.
If you ask them if they feel they must hold back because they have a nin tank they will laugh at you.

And when did I claim I (or nin tanks for that matter) pwn all?

And when did square ever say nin was not ment to be tanks?
I see people throw that around everywhere and nobody can ever produce proof. Show me a link to that, an article...anything other then some random person on a forum board.

Look at all the +enmity avail. for nin's to wear, I can't recall the exact amount but someone over on killing ifrit counted it up and it was something in the neighborhood of +26

Look at the arhats set next time your in the AH, +enmity, damage reduction, and + evasion (that looks like tank gear to me)

From your responses you have no idea what a nin does so let me explain what a nin tank does every fight:

count shadows
voke every 30
juggle 2 utsusemi timers
nuke
debuff
track tp
berserk every 5
renkei
mb (if 3 person chain mb in between and 2x in the end if lvl 2 effect)

Each ni spell takes ~1 second to cast (haste gear and haste spell)

I've never had my taru blm die because of over nuking, I have yet to fail getting the mob back.

I will say that I wish I had cover sometimes, so I can save some gil


To think that Pld pwns all...why thats just a fairy tale

p.s. I have nothing against plds, war/nin's etc etc, in the end we all take pride in doing the same thing. Tanking a mob well, and keeping our PT members safe.

[vulcan4d]

Nin tank is good but after lv30 you can't beat a PLD with holding hate.

[neelon]

Ack, I think it is time for S-E to release a couple of new items.

"-Hate against Paladins, NIN only" and "-Hate against Ninjas, PLD only".

C'mon, isn't this the same game we are playing, or do I miss something there?

We both are tanking jobs, designed to protect the other members in the party. We use different tools and techniques, so what? The end result is the same. Dead mob and all party members still well alive and kicking.

[Rekiem]

Originally posted by neelon


We both are tanking jobs, designed to protect the other members in the party. We use different tools and techniques, so what? The end result is the same. Dead mob and all party members still well alive and kicking.

No its not the same result, because with a NIN tank, you will be making much more exp over time and overall more efficient party, unless you have the wrong party setup. Less healing, more nuking, its just that simple.

[Psychorabbit]

Currently my PLD is almost 55 so i am a little biased...
I think within the first 30 levels of exping PLD and NIN both perfrom fairly well (probly a little easier for PLd though).

This is hard for me to say this :dead: ...but, I think in an EXP party starting ,id say in the level 40-50s and higher, a skillful and RICH (very Rich) NIN can be better in most aspects (Damage given, less damage taken), yet PLD are still excellent in differfent sections (spirits within will be nifty, supposedly better in emergencies, Coolness factor:spin.
End game with HNMs i think PLD would also be cooler (once again i havent experienced this so im not 100% sure)

But, it REALLY bothers me that a NIN can tank so well. WTF does a NIN have to do with holding hate?!! In movies, cartoons, tv shows, books, etc. a NIN is a stealth warrior who destroys enemies with quick and accurate blows... not an ennemy who hero who valiantly saves his comrades from the powerful attacks of an evil enemy. (role playing here). A NIN is supposed to be deadly and dark, hiding from the enemy, NOT standing right in front of the enemies face. I think the use of Blink Powder was greatly exploited by rich JP players (nothing agains them) and it in many ways makes me aggravated about playing PLD. Goodluck to both jobs though (and WAR too! they are ideal tanks imo).

[csBahamut]

Originally posted by Rekiem
No its not the same result, because with a NIN tank, you will be making much more exp over time and overall more efficient party, unless you have the wrong party setup. Less healing, more nuking, its just that simple.

So the 6K exp/hr my set party can get is bad exp?

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by Rekiem
No its not the same result, because with a NIN tank, you will be making much more exp over time and overall more efficient party, unless you have the wrong party setup. Less healing, more nuking, its just that simple.

More nuking, until the Taru BLM pulls aggro and dies in 2 hits.


Post-41 I haven't been in a group without either RDM or BRD or both. And rarely are groups I've been in limited by MP usage. Even with having an entire area to ourselves...

I really appreciate PLDs more and more as I get levels. A good PLD can keep hate almost all the time and doesn't take that much damage. Ninjas are nice, but you're handcuffed to bringing a THF along. I do think I'll be happier with NINs once DRK starts being hate-controller.

PLD is all about consistency. You can invite a PLD and be pretty sure what you're going to get. When you're in battle, you can have some confidence that he's not going to get ripped wide open all of the sudden because he lost his concentration. Emergency situations, PLD has a big advantage. With their 2-hour, with Cover, with depending on defense and VIT rather than recasting magic to tank...

I would like to get the opportunity to see a really good NIN tank in action. Hell, I'm a NIN37 myself. Maybe once I get a few more levels in WAR I'll go ahead and level Ninja a bit, for fun.

[Kesai]

I prefer not to have a thf in PT, just because the 2nd voker will need to get cured while setting up fuidama, which kinda negates the purpose of having a nin in a way.. (of course if the 2nd voker is a war/nin then that is a moot point).

It will be easier of course, when I get to the point where the drk in my PT can start subbing /thf (only a few lvls away )

[neelon]

Originally posted by Rekiem
No its not the same result, because with a NIN tank, you will be making much more exp over time and overall more efficient party, unless you have the wrong party setup. Less healing, more nuking, its just that simple.

The end result is the same. => Dead mob and all party members still well alive and kicking. I don't think you want a different result with a NIN tank.

With my set party we don't do downtime. The puller is on it's way to get new victims before the current one is dead. And I can't consider 5-6K an hour mediocre XP. Let me ask you for reference then, what kind of XP do you get with a NIN tank?

[LawDawg]

Originally posted by csBahamut
So the 6K exp/hr my set party can get is bad exp?

i wrote a reply to this last night, but for some reason, my home computer can't post ... hmm... anyways:

6k/hr is not bad, persay, but its not the best. It is my opinion that in a PT with a PLD tank, the statistical max (i.e. at around 3-4 standard deviations) you can get is ~6k/hr. Sure there will be exceptions, but those are very very rare. Now in a PT with a NIN tank, i'm guessing you can reach somewhere in the 8k/hr range. Why is this the case you ask? Because PLDs take more damage than NINs, and NINs do more damage than PLDs... its a lose/lose situation for PLDs. More damage taken -> More MP used -> More down time -> less exp/hr.
More damage done -> Less MP used, faster kills -> more exp/hr

Now I'm going to hear half of you say "OH BUT WHAT ABOUT HATE." This is my personal opinion about hate after levelling PLD to 62. PLDs get TOO much hate. Theres no need to have 12381298 hate when all you need is 1000. As a PLD, I never lose hate (unless i start watching TV, or purposely lose hate for skillchain) once the battle gets going... good NINs, like good PLDs, will know how to keep hate, but instead of 138723921 hate when 1000 is needed, maybe they can only get 1500 hate.... But the point is, when it comes to holding hate, NINs will have no problem if they know what they are doing. And no, this does not require a gazillion dollars in throwing stars... it requires a smart NIN and a smart PT.

Regardless, I have reached the conclusion that NINs are better tanks. Yes I am a PLD, but when your tank doesnt take damage, does more damage, and doesn't lose hate (when he knows what hes doing), well... not much you can argue there... Almost everyone in my HNMLS love NIN tanks for exp PTing... but PLDs, dont be discouraged! HNMs need PLDs just as much as NINs!...

[GSDragoon]

Originally posted by Kesai
I prefer not to have a thf in PT, just because the 2nd voker will need to get cured while setting up fuidama, which kinda negates the purpose of having a nin in a way.. (of course if the 2nd voker is a war/nin then that is a moot point).

It will be easier of course, when I get to the point where the drk in my PT can start subbing /thf (only a few lvls away )

If you have a PLD, have them flash so the first provoker doesn't get beat too bad. Flash makes a HUGE diffeence in the dmg I take at the begining.

Originally posted by LawDawg
i wrote a reply to this last night, but for some reason, my home computer can't post ... hmm... anyways:

6k/hr is not bad, persay, but its not the best. It is my opinion that in a PT with a PLD tank, the statistical max (i.e. at around 3-4 standard deviations) you can get is ~6k/hr. Sure there will be exceptions, but those are very very rare. Now in a PT with a NIN tank, i'm guessing you can reach somewhere in the 8k/hr range. Why is this the case you ask? Because PLDs take more damage than NINs, and NINs do more damage than PLDs... its a lose/lose situation for PLDs. More damage taken -> More MP used -> More down time -> less exp/hr.
More damage done -> Less MP used, faster kills -> more exp/hr

Now I'm going to hear half of you say "OH BUT WHAT ABOUT HATE." This is my personal opinion about hate after levelling PLD to 62. PLDs get TOO much hate. Theres no need to have 12381298 hate when all you need is 1000. As a PLD, I never lose hate (unless i start watching TV, or purposely lose hate for skillchain) once the battle gets going... good NINs, like good PLDs, will know how to keep hate, but instead of 138723921 hate when 1000 is needed, maybe they can only get 1500 hate.... But the point is, when it comes to holding hate, NINs will have no problem if they know what they are doing. And no, this does not require a gazillion dollars in throwing stars... it requires a smart NIN and a smart PT.

Regardless, I have reached the conclusion that NINs are better tanks. Yes I am a PLD, but when your tank doesnt take damage, does more damage, and doesn't lose hate (when he knows what hes doing), well... not much you can argue there... Almost everyone in my HNMLS love NIN tanks for exp PTing... but PLDs, dont be discouraged! HNMs need PLDs just as much as NINs!...

This reminds me of the best NIN tank I played when leveling up with my WAR. It was a fithly rich rank10 JP NIN. Awesome gear, max Ninjitsu(spelling?), throwing and such. They were awesome, debuffing, MB'ing, throwing. They still had a problem with hate. Every SC, I would grab hate. A 300 dmg Sturmwind and another 200 dmg SC. There was nothing they could do. They were, by far, the best NIN tank I played with, but I still would rather have a good PLD tank. Also have to remember that PLD tanks can cure themselves some. It reduces the MP the healer has to use.