Fixing melee and adding more mages at the same time.

[Frumply]

they don't need more mage jobs, they need to make the existing ones fun to play.

the main attraction to the melee side is the hero concept; you're beating them up, you're holding the aggro, without you the PT's nothing.

Compare that to most of the support jobs: RDMs turn into a refresh machine; bards turn into a ballad/madrigal machine; whms cure; blms can have some fun with nukes, but depending on the PT he/she'll have to be more whm-like; SMNs are screwed cause of the 1-minute summon skill reload. And other than BLM, there isn't much of a motivation to increase in levels; you're not increasing in damage input (cause you're not meleeing or nuking), more healing means more aggroa nyway (with the exception of cure5), and since you got mp regen a little bigger pot of MP won't makek a huge difference mid-battle.

[JexIntrepid]

Well, my main point is that most main dmg dealers should get double attack, HOWEVER, that means Warrior mains should get another trait.

You're right, i guess that by making it so that you just lose either berserk or double atk, you can make other subjobs beneficial.

One way to fix all of this would be to make certain items that all dmg dealers can use have a Double atk effect that is just as good as the war trait.

Or, add traits & abilities to other jobs like drg, pld, mnk, sam, etc that will work to even out the uberness of berserk + double attack.

Oh and mages have alot of fun, i think. Getting a new spell almost each new lvl is pretty fun. Rdms aren't just refresh bots if they are good, they can spend time nuking, enfeebling, magic bursting, converting, and all at the same time keeping the mages mp refreshed. Brds can sub different things to do backup healing and/or even smn ( i hear it's not such a bad combo)

Blms have it the best. You can't go wrong with a nuking machine that if times it right, can do massive dmg to strong mobs and HNMs.
SMNs have it pretty well now with fenrir, sure their reload is kinda setback, but it's not gonna lessen the motivation to lvl. New summons, new spells (from subjobs), all that falls into play.
Oh, and when you're a whm, you are a hero. you're keeping all of the aggro holders alive. Without you the pt's nothing either.

More mage jobs are needed because it's too limited right now.

To be honest, Frumply, i think you have it backwards. Most melee jobs are the ones that need more attraction and motivation to be fun. After repetitive abilities getting "enhanced" with AF, it's the same damn abilities. The weaponskills, well all jobs get new ws. So that's out of the question. Other than that, only drks & plds get a fair chance at the motivation to learn a new spell.
After a few lvls you gain a new spell. This goes on way after lvl 45.

Other dmg dealing jobs dont have that luxury post-50.
Mnks well you get traits, but it ends with kick really.
Drgs well you get your superjump. That's your last good ability. Nothing great.
Samurai well your last ability you get a lvl 30
Warriors anything new? aggressor? hmm... that's lvl 45
Rngs even i could argue dont get new traits to look forward to post 50 i think.
Thfs get mug....triple attack, but that fires off pretty much never.

Kinda painful to know that from lvl 50 to lvl 75 you're going to get nothing new ability-wise. You're gonna xp grind (which takes quite alot of time, cuz the exp requirements get awful afterwards) and there's no new toy to play with all 25 lvls. Just AF, which enhances....
Beat up the mob, beat up the mob...hold aggro (if war), ...yeah, after awhile of lvling and nothing new, it can get kinda old.

I mean i got meditate recently and i was fascinated by it. I lvled 2 more lvl s and it was already starting to get reptetitive. Imagine trying to reach lvl 75 and only looking forward to new weapons and equipment (AF included)....:dead:

Meanwhile, Redmages get new Ancient Spells, Blms too, all these crazy powerful spells, whms get better spells, drks & plds get good ones too, and SMNs, Brds get better summons, or songs respectively, throughout each step of the way to lvl 75.

[Zempten]

Originally posted by JexIntrepid

I dunno, i feel us dmg dealers have to dish out quite alot in weapons, while you mages barely spend time worrying about how hard you're gonna hit a mob. Your spells cost alot, but so do our good uber weapons. Equipment-wise we're equal in how expensive those are.

I'm sorry. I cannot agree here. In between switching between an Ice Staff, Dark Staff, and Light Staff ( these are weapons, mages dont' use them to hit, but rather use them for their status boost. Okay we might use it for when we farm or when we are given an oppurtunity), and other varous equipement to boost certain stats ( +int, +mnd ) so I do not get my spells resisted, switching between more items to get the most out of convert, and eatting rolanberry pies. I still belive mage's are still expensive compared to meeles.

Originally posted by ibroyles


Also, lets not forget a lot of the most used melee's later in the game (PLD, NIN, DRK) also have to buy spells (albeit not as much). Hell, NIN is pretty popular and I would say it is probably 2-3 times more expensive than any other magic user.

PLD, I don't think so. My spells are basically the same as his except for something like Flash , Holy, and Banish, which I can even out with me level 2 or level 3 elemental spells

NIN, I would agree, but only because he constantly needs to resuse NIN tools.

DRK, I cannot. Most of his aren't that expensive except from Absorb-Dex which I can even out with astral ring or a Phalax scroll. At least on my server. And if your talking about his equipment about your 2 Snipper Rings. I can still even that with a Serkest Ring and a Vermillion Robe and if that isn't enough added in my other 3 staffs.

No, I'm not trying to start a flame. I'm just trying to backup my opinion. Please let's not argue ,but provide facts

[Frumply]

First thing's first. Zempten: laffo on the snipper rings.

Now that we got that out of the way.

Jex, Have you forgotten about all your WS's? You don't end up using most of the spells you get every level anyway; with a WS you're likely to be able / required to use one in some kind of chain eventually.

On that note, here's one thing every melee job should be looking forward to: LV65 WS's and LV3 skillchains. I don't give a rat's ass since I'm sticking to Rampage (sif I do normal PTs anyway), but for jobs like DRK and MNK it's a real turning point.

Oh, and those spells you get? most of them are upgrades from older versions of the same damn spell, with a little difference in the graphics. It's no different from fighting 'dung beetles' then 'horsecrap beetles' and then 'elephant(dung) beetles' all with the same graphics, except a bit stronger.

In any case, I jsut had to laugh about the whole "melee needs more motivation" thing. Not that you'd care about a Pokemon FF player, but yeah.

What Snippe... I mean, Zempten said is also very true. You could skimp on equipment with any job if you really wanted to; however, if the aim's to get all the stat+ equip possible there's much money to spend.

[JexIntrepid]

i think i already stated in my post what disagrees with what you just said.

Weaponskills? Every job gets new weaponskills.
So equally every job has a new weaponskill to look forward to.

And i don't think the spells you get are upgrades of older ones. Drks and Plds get different spells each step of the way. Blms and Rdms get ancient magic. Whms look forward to divine magic, etc. It's not the same at all.

And although you might say that your spells often cost more, Zempten, i'll still disagree. Check the prices for the normal (not +1) Great Katanas at later levels, or the Cross-Counters, or some of the Lances, etc.

These are all weapons you need to deal good dmg in a party and be distinguished from other dmg dealers. We have it worse than you mages, because first you barely have to lfg, and once you pop your seeking sign you get an invite soon enough. You dont have to compete nearly as much. So whatever spells you have, you can get them eventually, but it's not always a necessity. As for a dmg dealer, in order to compete for a spot in a party, you MUST ALWAYS have the most up to date equipment, or else you get kicked, or get a bad rep, or just dont' give enough dmg output compared to others (and blm's nuke) so you just free load off the party. That's why these dmg dealing jobs always have to keep up with the best weapon. You mages CAN get those high priced weapons for the stats if you really find the need to, but no one's really competing with you for you to feel forced to.
So in a general way, your spells costing so much equals the struggle we have to put out there for those weapons and those foods to keep up with others.

[poppipo]

thats exactly what i think!

I mean how cool would it be to have like a warrior/rdm that gets moreof a benefit of more enhancing spells, or theif could give like a special bonus to attack speed or something when subbed, or make everything a aq balanced support job SE! it would surely give players different from one another and would finally kill off the -/war for like every melee job

[Synbios]

Originally posted by JexIntrepid
Whms look forward to divine magic, etc.

I'm sorry but I really have to laugh at this. What kinda divine magic are you talking about here? WHMs hardly gets any love at higher levels unless the PTs fighting Lizards or Cockatrices cause no one expects the PT to die.

[Cali]

This is getting off topic....

Anyway, mages' equips and melee's equips both cost simular, but mages do spend more thanks to the spell.

I think what Jex meant by mages spent less on equip is that, PLD or WAR especially, needs to upgrade their armors every 2 or 3 lvl, well, my PLD is only 20's, so I have never checked the 30+, but I would expect a good armor, high def and +vit if possible would ranged about 20k~30k a piece? Now let's look at mages, you can stick to racial gears til AF(for most races), before 50, there isn't many good equip you need, on spell spendage, I have bought a few spells for my RDM friend as we progress, and I notice, she doesn't need a new spell every lvl, but rather 2 or 3 lvl, and each spells cost 10k~30k....
Melee: every 2 or 3 lvl. 4x 20k~30k for armors, and then a good weapon would really cost tons(crosscounter...)
Mage: every 2 or 3 lvl, a x 5k~30k(a = how many spells u need), equips only upgradable when there is a better stat bonus one....

so Melee's spending isn't as different as mage's.... as for food, we can buy meat chiefkabob, but for damage dealing, chiefkabob = mithkabob, except chiefkabob lasts an hour, so actually, it's the same eating either. There is curry I read, that give good attack bonus, but I have drop my lvling plan before I read that, so I never tried.

And don't count RNG and NIN into melee, they are money eater... I dropped NIN because just for ninja tools, I will spend an average of 30k every 2 lvls. (Yes, IF I play NIN, I will be a blink tank, and not trying to be a damage dealer with my pathetic damage)

Actually, the original post does have a point. Think about how many melee we got, and how many mages we got, and how many can share the party role in either side?
Simply put it, if you ignore monster type, and the slight attack difference, all damage dealer melee are treated the same, which mean SAM, DRK, THF, MNK, DRG, RNG... that's 6 jobs...
Now mages, they are all some sorta specialist, RDM after 41 is refresh and dispel, BLM is a nuker, WHM is a healer and teleporter(and buffer?), SMN is a buffer and healer, BRD is a super buffer. Though, I personally treat anything with heal a healer, I have notice NA refuse to believe that, BLM would spam nuke to tank, SMN would sit to leech, etc....
I can't see what mages they can really put in, yes hastega from time mage might be fun, but that's like ruining the already unbalanced SMN job...

[bonovoxpsu]

hey, don't blame square because all the kids are raving about the "uuber damage dealing class"

i mean seriously, who wants sit in the support role? its less a problem with square's setup then it is a problem with human nature...

oh, and Jex, rdm's don't get ancient magic spells.

not that they shouldn't - *cough* demi *cough*

[Malefas]

Mages make the difference in HNM, melee don't. There's basically no argument here, since this is the way the game is designed.

The main problem lies in the difference of level between an HNM for example, and the alliance thats sets out to kill it. Regardless if a spell gets resisted or not, it does hit and do damage. That is a lot better than what melee have to deal with against most HNMs (the expansion NMs and HNMs are basically the real problem, old ones like Serket don't really come into play).

Melee have to stand in the fray, get hit by all this nasty AE, and not hit worth a damn. Wiff Wiff Wiff is basically the chat log a melee is subjected to during HNM fights. That or doing really low damage. Weaponskills don't even hit everytime as well, but that doesn't really matter. Whether your a polearm wielding DRG or a Scythe/Great Sword wielding DRK, you're gonna be using Spirits Within on these HNMs, so get your sword skill raised.

How does SE address this problem? To be honest, I don't think they can with the current game design. The battles will become alot easier if melee accuracy is upped against these HNMs, probably getting to the point where they become too easy seeing as SE would probably just be lazy about it and lower the level of the HNMs in relation to the attacking party.

I blame poor game design when it comes to the formulas deciding how battles take place. Basically a situation which worked well for the lower levels and exp purposes, but blows up and gets all messy when you hit end game.

But to be honest, this is only number 2 on my list of things that bother me with this game, hehe. Number one has to be with blink tanking altogether, which I think is ridiculously broken. I've seen THFs tank old world HNMs due to a lack of PLD at the spawn. Plus, the higher level the HNMs become, the more important it seems to abuse blink tanking, becase for some reason the tanking class of the game (PLD), can still get wailed upon with no remorse for damage per attack near the 300 damage range. Fenrir anyone? :sweat:

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Malefas
Mages make the difference in HNM, melee don't. There's basically no argument here, since this is the way the game is designed.

The main problem lies in the difference of level between an HNM for example, and the alliance thats sets out to kill it. Regardless if a spell gets resisted or not, it does hit and do damage.

This is not entirely true. Spells other than nukes, if they are resisted, do nothing. And even nukes can be resisted to 0 damage, although it is rare.

I think there's a good argument that HNMs should be rebalanced, though. Lower physical evasion, lower VIT or defense, and to keep this from making them "too easy", either higher resistances to magic or more HP. If a well equipped level 75 can't deal damage to them effectively, something is wrong.

It's one thing for Genbu and Aspidochelone to have ridiculous physical defense - they're turtles, it's kinda expected. But Byakko? Suzaku? Not ALL HNMs should be so resistant to physical attacks that only magic is effective.

In particular, the use of spirits within even by jobs that should be bad at it strongly suggests that def/vit is a big problem. Spirits within is one of the few sources of formula damage - ignoring normal defenses - and the fact that it is so commonly used on these HNMs indicates that normal forms of attack are useless.

You also mention blink tanking - one of the things I hope to see in Promathia is more monsters with lower damage per hit but a high attack speed and/or accuracy, and more monsters that attack twice every round like ninjas and monks. Both would make blink tanking less effective, and VIT/DEF tanking (pld, war/mnk) better.

I'd also like to see some better def gear for wars and especially monks at higher level. Monks have the HP and VIT to tank, but at higher levels their DEF lags significantly behind PLD and WAR; even gear that appears to be designed for tanking like Arhat's Gi has low DEF. (Of course I'm assuming they're not an idiot that tries to tank with snipers or something, but even so their DEF will be significantly lower.) Most servers have a tank shortage and making more jobs viable in the tank slot at higher levels (MNK tank just fine to the 30s at least, if they are equipped for it) is a good way to fix it.

The biggest thing I want to see in Promathia, though, is some monsters that are weak to earth - maybe even an entire race of beastmen that are lightning based and weak to earth. All six elements should have their uses, not just five.

[Ariesknight]

I heard someone saying that main WARs should get a trait or ability to make them better than a /WAR. I am a main WAR and i can say, the fact that we can sub either MNK,SAM,THF or NIN makes us awesome and we have that ability which is so overlookd, it is called ''Aggressor'', it boosts our ACC while lowering our EVA. When a WAR/NIN for example unleashes Aggressor+Berserk+Warcry+ATK+ food we become a force to be reckoneded with, we hit for Higher damage and Land More Hits, with Utsusemi from NIN sub we need'ent worry about taking Aggro for a few hits, and if we are tanking take Berserk out of the equation, and these extra powerful, accurate hits cna only help us keep aggro.
Do not have the Basic Job mentality, WAR is a very good and versatile main job through to 75.

[Kagerou]

I completely agree with the fact that War is probably the most versatile job out there. What all War players have to know is that its A LOT harder blink tanking. Longer recast time, less shadows, capped ninjutsu skill, also if u use aggressor u won't be able to dodge the mobs attacks at all.











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"The only things people can ever know about you are the ones you let them see" -Rule of Four

Don't ever call me Gal. My name is pronounced Ga-le-os, so call me Gale at least. T-T

[Stolin]

this is in reply to one of hte earlier posters-
there is a melee support job. Warrior w/great axe and anything that subs thief or is a thief.