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  • #46
    Irony.

    Tenshu comes in here, with his "badass" mage self asking us why melees have bad experiences with mages. Then he proceeds to demean us, imply we're useless, call us simple and easy, and call mages uber, "omg pwn" and "omg neccessary."

    And mages wonder why melees dislike so many of their pampered asses?

    Main Job(s): 75 MNK
    Secondary Job(s): 38 WAR / 38 WHM / 37 THF
    San d'Oria Rank: 10
    Zilart Mission: 14
    Promathia Mission: 1
    Dynamis Interloper: JEU / WIN / BAS / SAN
    Current Status: Returning to my old favorite; the Monk. Also awaiting my new PC so I can try out World of Warcraft.

    Got Drama? Read Shinryuken's LiveJournal!

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    • #47
      Rofl totally misunderstood what I said. That's fine though. I only meant that there's a balance between mages and melees, I just have fun playing with you guys.
      With only a whisper,
      the world will be swept
      into complete darkness.


      Tarutaru represent~!
      Rest in Peace TRF.

      52 WHM - 25 BLM - 18 RNG - 17 SMN -16 DRG - 6 MNK

      Comment


      • #48
        And all I meant was it's alot harder to be a mage compared to a melee.. and deny it all you want, I've been around melees all the time, watched them and have even played them myself. I never meant to degrade you or take anything personally~
        With only a whisper,
        the world will be swept
        into complete darkness.


        Tarutaru represent~!
        Rest in Peace TRF.

        52 WHM - 25 BLM - 18 RNG - 17 SMN -16 DRG - 6 MNK

        Comment


        • #49
          I was exaggerating for effect, but what you said wasn't far off. I didn't take it personally of course.

          Point is this: Any class can be simplified. You know shit-all about melees if you think its just Skillchain ad infinitum. The only class that comes close to being a simple melee is probably Monk, a class I love and admit to being relatively mindless. For the rest, there's tons of stuff to do. DRKs have to carefully budget hate, keep watch for stunnable enemy attacks, etc. RNG have to carefully budget hate, know when to use what arrow, use Blink to prepare for aggro, or act as a puller. PLDs, well, they have a very stressful job, considering a good PLD makes or breaks a party, and must budget mana, know when to use what, how to maximize hate efficiency. THFs have to position themselves properly for Fuidama, close skillchains properly, or pull, and so on and so on.

          Yeah, sounds so simple to me.

          Speaking as a former Everquest Cleric, and on occassion a Taru WHM in this game (my alt), to me nothing is easier and more boring then being a healer in a good party. Nothing.

          While we're on the topic of over-simplifying classes, Tenshu, here's my simplified take on Mages:

          RDM: Refresh and debuff. Cure if needed, remove status effects. Wow, hard.
          BLM: Debuff and pay attention so they can Magicburst. Ooh.
          WHM: Cure. Yay.
          SMN: Cure and Blinkga, or Fenrir. Whoopdedoo.
          BRD: Run to mages. Sing. Run to melees. Sing. Yippee.

          Now, if I truly thought the above were true (which I don't, so read before you leap people) when it comes to Mages, people would rightfully call me a moron, but I'm not retarded enough to simplify a class like that. All classes have their nuisances and can be complex to learn, and I disagree that a nonHealer-Mage is more stressful than a PLD, WAR, or NIN maintank. After all, there's a reason you can distinguish between a great melee/tank and a piss-poor one, and I don't mean gear.

          Main Job(s): 75 MNK
          Secondary Job(s): 38 WAR / 38 WHM / 37 THF
          San d'Oria Rank: 10
          Zilart Mission: 14
          Promathia Mission: 1
          Dynamis Interloper: JEU / WIN / BAS / SAN
          Current Status: Returning to my old favorite; the Monk. Also awaiting my new PC so I can try out World of Warcraft.

          Got Drama? Read Shinryuken's LiveJournal!

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          • #50
            lol. ^^

            It's all good. I see where you're coming from, and yes.. I fully do agree but ALOT of melee players don't really understand that they are more than just "Pentathrust" or SPAM TEH SOULD EATERZ!

            Like I said though, Mages and Melees are balanced pretty well. One can't survive without the other, simple as that. ^^


            EDIT: I forgot to add that there are plenty of idiotic Mages as well.
            With only a whisper,
            the world will be swept
            into complete darkness.


            Tarutaru represent~!
            Rest in Peace TRF.

            52 WHM - 25 BLM - 18 RNG - 17 SMN -16 DRG - 6 MNK

            Comment


            • #51
              It all comes down to what happens in a pinch is the basis behind a "good player" at any job vs a piss poor one at easy exp mobs.

              Link? ---> have the brd sleep it, sucky brd? everyone die

              blm --> calls for tanks to hold agro for 30 sec while escape goes off or elemental seal + sleep

              whm ---> teleport anyone? benediction?

              thf puller ---> keeps running off away from group with perfect dodge, and flee to zone

              pld --- > holds hate

              war or /war ---> tank the other one

              rdm ---> sleep

              smn ---> earth elemental tank! go!

              this is just some examples of what
              smart players would do no matter the race. The fact that every job be it mage or melee has to work together when the !%!@ hits the fan isn't news but hey, ppl never seem to get it.

              Everyone is still stuck in home console games where you can do it all by yourself and everyone else is just some 32-bit AI computer character that won't mind you screwing it over for fun.


              oh ya btw, I think when it comes to getting shafted by other jobs the most would be the bst job. If you ever get a chance, go check out the bst froum on this site or alakazham. I'm actually scared to play my bst now cause I got Sprite on my server and she acts like such a !%!@$#!@$ and she's hume btw.... (and yes it is actually a she on the other side of that keyboard)
              75/bst, 60/smn, 51/rdm, 46/whm, 40/blm, 37/nin, 37/thf, 37/war, 32/sam, 25/brd, 10/pld, 7/mnk

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              • #52
                DONT LIKE MAGES ARE U FUCKIN KIDDING ME!?!?

                IF IT WERENT FOR MAGES THIS GAME WOULD BE HARD FOR MELEE YOU FUCKIN NEWBS IM NOT EVEN AS HIGH LVL AS U AND I KNO SOMTHING AS SIMPLE AS THAT..

                JESUS CHRIST U DONT BELONG ON FFXI IF YA THINK MAGES ARE BAD


                Leaping boots:X Emp hairpin:X 2xSniper's Rings:X Utsusemi Ichi:X (again) .. I can now LVL NIN!!

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                • #53
                  You want stress? Try being the desiganted tank for a party where the puller won't wait until the healer has mana stored up to pull.

                  Now, do this in Korroloka Tunnel, where nobody has a map, one of the party memebers is having bad lag problems, and you're the only one who actually knows the place well enough to find people when they get lost, like the White Mage, who's trying to stick with the person who's having lag problems.

                  So, I'm trying to keep his tail in one peice, everyone else's tails in one peice, the mage's in one piece, the mages close enough that they can heal, and all this while I'm being bombed, bound, and bashed by an angry worm, or two or three, because the blasted ninja managed to get a link again.

                  We were getting great exp, aside from getting killed constantly. He finally left, as we were debating in tells whether or not we were going to kick him from the party.

                  The irony of all of this, was that it wasn't the newbies who were causing the problems. Aside from getting lost in the tunnels, they were doing their jobs fairly well, without blatently screwing things up; it was the guy with the advanced job, who wasn't satisfied with a mere 200 exp a battle who kept getting us killed.

                  And just to get back onto the topic of the thread, that Ninja, was a Taru, though I rather suspect the problems we were having with him came from the player behind the keyboard, than the fact that he was playing a Taru.

                  Thank you, I needed that vent.

                  I just get exceptionally frustrated when a party that is otherwise doing well, effectively, gets scuttled by a player who can't keep themselves under control. I've had more problems with people who are dead set on making Exp Chain #5 at lvl 16, than the people who aren't sure what they're doing. I can handle someone who doesn't know how to get the most out of their char yet; we can stick with weaker mobs, I can try an teach them how to play better, but someone who keeps pulling IT's when the mages are out of mana and the tanks are in the red because they have to get to lvl 20 by tonight and get out of this noobzvil! I can't work with those people. If a party isn't ready to handle IT chains, then they aren't ready to handle IT chains, and no amount of yelling at them about it at them about it is gong to magically make it happen. As much as I love 3k exp an hour, I'd rather have 1k/h over negative exp any day of the week.

                  "Noobz" merely slow down exp gain. Impatient players destroy it.

                  Harry Voyager

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TenshuRune
                    And all I meant was it's alot harder to be a mage compared to a melee.. and deny it all you want, I've been around melees all the time, watched them and have even played them myself. I never meant to degrade you or take anything personally~
                    Seriously... I have 36 levels of WHM, 25 levels of RDM, 20 levels of BLM, and 32 levels of PLD, along with numerous other jobs at lesser levels (see my sig). Obviously, this does not make me a high-level, end-game player, and I cannot speak to the way of things at high level and in the endgame. But I do think I have sampled enough of the life of the various jobs in this game to be able to comment on their relative challenge.

                    But in my experience so far, the most difficult and engaging job that I have played is without any questions whatsoever Paladin.
                    The second would be White Mage. Both of these are very responsibility-intensive jobs... you hold your party's lives in your hands, whether those hands heal or hold the shield that stands between your more fragile allies and the monster you seek to defeat. However, ultimately, the White Mage's job comes down to healing. You keep your party alive, by healing their damage and curing their status effects. Sometimes, if you have no redmage in your party, you have to enfeeble as well, and it certainly gets trickier at that point as you have to squeeze your enfeebles in without letting your tank's HP drop too much or missing critical status cures... but for the most part it is a fairly simple if very busy job.

                    As a paladin, you have to walk a very fine line in managing your MP and your hate. If you don't use enough of your MP, you won't be able to hold aggro, and your party will suffer for it. If you use too much, you'll kill any opportunity for exp chain bonuses and drag your party down. You have a wide array of abilities at your disposal... Provoke (if you're subbing WAR), Shield Bash, Sentinel, Cure spells of varying effect, hate generation, and MP cost, a little attack magic (not usually terribly useful, though), your weapon skills, whether this be Flat Blade to stop enemy WS, or Red Lotus to throw in some damage if you're not in the skillchain... or if you ARE in the skillchain then you have the additional responsibility of keeping the party updated with your TP status, and the decision-making after each fight of whether to rest for more MP (and MP is a very precious commodity for a PLD... something too many pullers do not seem to recognize) or save your TP for skillchain. On top of this, we are constantly getting hit, so we have to learn to syncrhonize ourself with the timing of the mob's attacks so our cure spells don't get interrupted... because getting your first Cure II in a fight interrupted and missing out on that precious hate can blow your coordination for the entire rest of the fight if you're not careful.

                    So I don't think melee is necessarily easier to play than mage... and at least one melee job is quite a bit more difficult. I would imagine that tanking as a Ninja is quite difficult as well. For a warrior it's somewhat less complex, of course... but at the same time, warriors have less resources to work with and have to be sure to use every one to its utmost efficiency. Obviously, damage dealer classes are somewhat less complex (though I submit that trying to get a party of newbies to hold the mob still so you can sneak attack as a thief is one of the most frustrating experiences in all of the game, and it can only get worse with Trick Attack.)

                    Anyway... this was something of a rant, and I apologize for its length and the way it wanders... a lot of it is probably rooted in the fact that as a PLD I take pride in the fact that I play a difficult job and I play it well, and I don't like seeing that challenge demeaned.
                    Stormwalker
                    -----------------
                    FFXIV - Lyri Saranna - Rabanastre
                    Gladiator 6/Pugilist 8/Physical 10

                    "Fanatics find their heaven in never-ending storming winds..."
                    --"Key of the Twilight", .hack//SIGN

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I don't think anyone in this game's even tasted true stress until they play Ninja into high levels, and high level Red Mages as a distant second. Not to say the other jobs have they're own challenges, but these two jobs have so freaking much to do all at once, and a high standard to follow to do it all right.

                      As a Ninja you have to enfeeble, cycle ninjutsu, provoke cast blink, enfeeble, enfeeble, throw, cast blink (And remember you have to keep count of your shadows after all this time) provoke, cycle ninjutsu, provoke, watch shadow count, throw, recast blink. Its not in that order exactly, but you never, ever, ever rest or take it "easy" You can't just get away with a few spells and a provoke when you can either, its everything or nothing. Pile all that with the fact your usually tanking and you have that responsibility overshadowing all of this.

                      Red Mages have to keep refresh up and watch that constantly, magic burst,( Don't forget to watch for those skillchains) enfeeble, heal when necessary, dispell when necessary, watch aggro. Although its not all as necessary as it is for a Ninja to use everything, you get the deal that being such a flexible mage with a really important central purpose (keeping downtime ...down) comes with a lot of responsibilit.

                      I'm not undermining the importance and worth of any of the other classes. Just because Monk is easy as hell to play doesn't mean its a useless class at all, its totally the opposite. But in my opinion, I think these two jobs are the most draining of them all. Its not because of how difficult the job is, or how much practice you need, its just how much you have to do at once. When parties go on a really long time it starts to really drain you fast. I think these two jobs are probably the most stressful and draining jobs of them all. If you play any other class, then play a Rdm or a Nin up to higher levels you'll start to feel the difference. They're probably followed by White Mage, Paladin, Ranger, Black Mage in that order, with the rest not having the same amount of responsibility or need for self control. Still with some challenge but not as much as those, or these two.

                      Oh, and as for hating Tarus. I just remember that the player behind every character is a hume, so what race they play in the game doesn't really change the fact they're just an obnoxious hume in real life.


                      ^. You have now seen everything..

                      Name: Kiyotaru.
                      Ethinticity: Windurstian.
                      Home: Norg
                      Main job: Ninja/Warrior (Current level's 50-60)
                      Server:Ragnarok.

                      Linkshells: Come and go.

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                      • #56
                        And if things go wrong, its the tanks who take it on the chin. In the span from lvl 12 to lvl 16, I believe I have died upwards of ten times already, and nearly every one of those times, it was because one player in the party insisted on doing something they had been told not to.

                        Another two of them were due to a black mage, who couldn't wait to chain cast all over the mob as soon as he had the chance. I was the only person there with Provoke, and between my first Provoke of the fight, and the time it took for my second Provoke to ready, he would cast everything he had, which, of course, pulled the mob right to him, before my 'voke was even half ready. So, for ten-fifteen seconds, he'd be the tank, and the white mage had to dump massive mana into healing him, lest he get killed, so, of course, by the time I finally get it back, the Whm is drained.

                        The Black Mage's job is to end the fight, not to start it. If you have to throw five nukes on the target in the space of five seconds, wait until the mob is weakened enough that that will kill it, rather than merely making it mad.

                        Harry Voyager

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Voyager
                          The Black Mage's job is to end the fight, not to start it. If you have to throw five nukes on the target in the space of five seconds, wait until the mob is weakened enough that that will kill it, rather than merely making it mad.

                          Harry Voyager
                          Thankfully, now that I've gotten past Qufim, I haven't had a bad blackmage in quite some time. In fact, I've even gotten to the point where I don't feel skittish about having them in my party anymore, and am truly pleased to see them and the damage-dealing they can bring to the table again.

                          Still, it's a very valid point that I didn't address that is brought up here... one of the ironies of being a tank is that we generally don't die for our own mistakes... other people die for our mistakes. For me, that's worse. I can deal with it if I die and I screw up, but if I screw up and someone ELSE dies, that really hurts. Fortunately, it hasn't happened in quite a while. But at the same time, WE tend to die for other people's mistakes (bad pull, too slow on the healing, underequipped damage-dealers who can't kill the mob, etc.). So while in many ways we are responsible for keeping the party alive, we are dependent on THEM to keep *us* alive. It's a very symbiotic relationship, and ultimately to have a good party, everyone must contribute.
                          Stormwalker
                          -----------------
                          FFXIV - Lyri Saranna - Rabanastre
                          Gladiator 6/Pugilist 8/Physical 10

                          "Fanatics find their heaven in never-ending storming winds..."
                          --"Key of the Twilight", .hack//SIGN

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                          • #58
                            I don't talk badly about any of the races, cept Galka, their big, fat, stupid and their the Humes slaves. I wish we could all ride Galka's, I'm sure we will eventually, when the Hume tighten their grip on them. No, but seriously, I'm just trying to humour myself by posting this.

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                            • #59
                              As a former White Mage I have much respect for the people that keep my Tarutaru ass from being made dead. I reallly didn't notice Mage arrogance because most of the time I was the only mage in the party, and unless you did something stupid that put the groups survival in jeopardy I kept my mouth shut, and if you did something good I wasn't afraid to give you proper respect. Now that I have gone through Valkrum with my Bard I can honestly see why more than a few people are fed up with mages that have the shitty "This party revolves around me." attitudes.
                              A spoony bard by anyone's standards.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Voyager
                                And if things go wrong, its the tanks who take it on the chin. In the span from lvl 12 to lvl 16, I believe I have died upwards of ten times already, and nearly every one of those times, it was because one player in the party insisted on doing something they had been told not to.

                                Another two of them were due to a black mage, who couldn't wait to chain cast all over the mob as soon as he had the chance. I was the only person there with Provoke, and between my first Provoke of the fight, and the time it took for my second Provoke to ready, he would cast everything he had, which, of course, pulled the mob right to him, before my 'voke was even half ready. So, for ten-fifteen seconds, he'd be the tank, and the white mage had to dump massive mana into healing him, lest he get killed, so, of course, by the time I finally get it back, the Whm is drained.

                                The Black Mage's job is to end the fight, not to start it. If you have to throw five nukes on the target in the space of five seconds, wait until the mob is weakened enough that that will kill it, rather than merely making it mad.

                                Harry Voyager
                                To the first: ooh. Ouch. I think most of my deaths in that level range are due to stupid soloing. :-) Even-match crabs at lv14 are bad for a RDM.

                                To the second:
                                (1) If you're a mage, and you're NOT a RDM, give the melees a chance to get and HOLD aggro;
                                (2) if you are a RDM, don't grab too much aggro from the melees, but grab aggro if the healers aren't keeping up on the melees right now (make sure you're well equipped for doing damage through non-magical means, though - a good bow, along with a decent weapon);
                                (3) if you're a warrior (either naturally or through sub), SPAM VOKE. There is *no* excuse not to (at least, not one I've heard);
                                (4) everyone else, if you see the mob heading for the mages, do anything you can, short of throwing your 2hr, to get the damn mob's attention.

                                To the third: Yeah, it's the RDM's job to start the fight... if you've got enough people with ranged weapons. And then the RDM should be starting the fight with Bind (a better use of the RDM's MP than of the BLM's MP, because, quite frankly, the BLM should be using his MP to nuke, not to enfeeble, unless there's no RDM or the RDM sucks) so that everyone can take advantage of the ranged attacks. :-)

                                OT: The party I was in last night... well, the leader made a comment about how he'd met a RDM who didn't know what the hell enfeebling was. WTF? How stupid do these people get? :-)
                                mnk26 / rdm16 / blm7 / war5

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