Chemist ,,not workable, analysis inside

[tazirai]

hmmm

Ive been reding the posts by nico for a while on this topic
Qustion i have is this
In my anaylsis of the chemist is a class beyond the regular alchemy guild in game already.

But My question is how would you stop this class from being over powered.

Example
WHM/RDM is in a PT fo rthe reasons of raising if neccessary and aslo because of weakening magics.
Rdm is best status inducer in game as it stands and whm also best healer.
Now when you raise your weakening and healing magick skills instead of say healing for 20-30 using cure 1 at max cap for healing you would heal for 30 everytime.
Also even though you can heal when an ally is being attacked there is the problem of casting time .


When i thought about the chemist I realized RDM/WHM?RNG are now defunct with this class.


Chemist mixes his items to create the desired thing like a potion.
Now with now healing skill level he tosses the potion to an ally auto 30 hp restored ...no casting time involved at all. If you have a throw macro OMG hes awesome. He can toss all day long. NO casting time .. So his heals would have 2 benefits, one they would always do max healing, and two the have no casting tiem and would be effective immediately.

How would you fix the problem of time and healing issue also when a chemist uses other chemicals liek DOT's and weaking chemicals the only danger i can see a chemist being in is the amount of hate he would generate ..

I'd really liek to hear your thoughts on this NIco....


How would you stop that hate ....

[IleDeusMorpheus]

Well, not having played the game, I'm not at liberty to speculate accurately how they could be balanced (nor can I speak for Nico, whose judgment on Chemist issues I will defer to ), but when I think Chemist I think FF5 ...

FF5's Chemist was not overpowered, but had the potential to be good if used shrewdly. The Chemist's strongest attack Mix, Shadowflare, does somewhere on the order of 900 damage when I use it. Summon Odin, on the other hand, and you have upwards of 3500 damage. Likewise, I could buy potions and mix them for healing purposes, but Cure3 is just more efficient, and MP is easier to come by than the gil for 99 potions. The way to be good with an FF5 Chemist was to be resourceful and use rare items sparingly; don't go chucking around a bunch of Dark Matter when Shadowflare does piddling damage; Mix a Bacchus Wine to Berserk a magic-using foe; Mix the right elemental defense draught for the right situation.

So basically I guess that to balance them out, you could nerf their stats or their item capacity, but a better way would be to make their items mixes something less than godly and make the reagents harder to obtain. :sweat:

[DJplaeskool]

Originally posted by Coinspinner


I know all those jobs can equip guns, but I read somewhere on this site that only Rangers could use TP skills (I believe one of them is called Sidewinder) with ranged weapons. I was thinking that if Chemists were allowed to do the same, the Ranger job would lose a lot of it's allure.

True...

in order to use bow/gun WSs, you must have either RNG main or RNG sub...

hmm...
the true RNG strength is definitely in the bow WSs (Sidewinder is godly)...so giving Chemists gun WSs only wouldn't bee too much of a draw back to use RNG...

[Nico Silius]

Well, a possible way to do balancing would be to have a 'casting time' of sorts.

It would work a bit like this. A chemist chooses to use a potion, and selects whatever team member he/she wants to use it on. The chemist then throws the item (instant). Now, there is a period of time between the toss, and when the item "lands" and is used on the other team-mate. A chemist could not toss another item untill the first item had taken effect.

Further, hate could be generated just as easily. Items the chemist used would be treated like spells. So if a chemist healed 50 hp, or did 90 hp damage, it would generate as much hate as a spell caster who did cure or fire, for example.

Again, this class would be one of the harder classes to balance. However, I think it could be one of the more rewarding. While a chemist might just buy potions to use, the required reagents to make truly fantastic items would be very rare, and very hard to find. This alone would provide an excellent system of checks and balances. While you might be able to throw around Dark Matter, it might take 5 hours (real time) and 100k gil to make.

Again, I can't pretend that this class is playable as it is. However, I think this does provide an excellent starting point to making chemists a real and viable class for a future expansion. And thanks for bringing up possible issues with the class, as I like trying to work out possible solutions.

[Coinspinner]

Totally off-topic, but it needs to be said.

Originally posted by IleDeusMorpheus
(...)FF5's Chemist was not overpowered, but had the potential to be good if used shrewdly. The Chemist's strongest attack Mix, Shadowflare, does somewhere on the order of 900 damage when I use it. Summon Odin, on the other hand, and you have upwards of 3500 damage. Likewise, I could buy potions and mix them for healing purposes, but Cure3 is just more efficient, and MP is easier to come by than the gil for 99 potions. The way to be good with an FF5 Chemist was to be resourceful and use rare items sparingly; don't go chucking around a bunch of Dark Matter when Shadowflare does piddling damage; Mix a Bacchus Wine to Berserk a magic-using foe; Mix the right elemental defense draught for the right situation.(...)

This has no real bearing on FFXI... or the topic at hand... but FF5 Chemists are insanely powerful. Having done their SCC*, I can say it's easily the best single job in that game. Even ignoring their glitchy "Blessed Kiss" mix, which will always berserk any enemy in the game; even OMEGA, Shinryuu and NeoExdeath are vulnerable to it.

Shadowflare, as you say, is rather weak by the time you have enough Dark Matter to use it effectively. But clearly you've never seen Drain Kiss (Maiden's Kiss + Turtle Shell). It DRAINS roughly 2000 HP in one shot, and never misses. And by the time you've got enough Dark Matter to toss around, Holy/Hoary Breath and Dragon Breath should also be out-damaging it by a good deal; Damage = currentHP, and both are compatible with Giant Drinks (double maxHP). They can also give damn near every (if not every) positive status in the game, heal for high amounts of HP, revive at full HP/MP, restore large amounts of MP, cure the status of or revive an entire group, raise a teamate's level by 10 or 20, the list goes on...

Even if it's just easier to buy Haste 2 and Cure 3, and then hunt down one Stingray for Guardian than it is to farm Dragon Valley and Karnak for fangs and shells, you can't deny that the Chemist job does everything that's needed, and in just one class. If your whole party is chemists... well, you just don't need any other jobs. The cost of these items is really negligable too. Even when they've just reached Karnak, Chemists have no trouble slaughtering turtles.

*SCC = Straight Character Challenge, or Single Class Challenge if you prefer. The entire party is set to one job the entire game, with no abilities from other jobs.

[Xavius]

I have to disagree with the above poster who said FF5 Chemists were not that powerful. I love FF5 and Chemist is my favorite class in the game, right behind Elementalist. Chemists could do a variety of things from raising a characters level, lowering the level of a monster, create potions with triple dragon breaths in them and even turn a person into a Dragon (though graphics do not change stats do for the battle). The most scary aspect of a Chemist in FF5 is the Dark Matter mixes, especially Dark Matter + Elixir = Dark Elixir. When used on a monster it reduces their HP and MP to 1. Scary Huh?

For those that do not know the mixes and affects of the FF5 Chemist take a look at:

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/...y_v_mixing.txt

Also I think Chemists would be fun in FFXI, especially if they get the Innate ability to Up Item Effects. In FF5 Healing items were doubled when used by a Chemist, even Ethers (Mages would want a Chemist around for this).

[IleDeusMorpheus]

Um ... I think you mighta misunderstood ...

Chemist was my second favorite class in FF5 (second only to Lancer); they're extremely useful, but it's just that you have some good planning to use them right. Yeah, Dark Elixir is great indeed. The only problem with Chemist is that you have a finite amount of items, while MP can be restored.

:sweat: sorry if it seemed like I was hating on Chemist. I wouldn't do that :sweat:

[Coinspinner]

Originally posted by IleDeusMorpheus
Um ... I think you mighta misunderstood ...

Chemist was my second favorite class in FF5 (second only to Lancer); they're extremely useful, but it's just that you have some good planning to use them right. Yeah, Dark Elixir is great indeed. The only problem with Chemist is that you have a finite amount of items, while MP can be restored.

:sweat: sorry if it seemed like I was hating on Chemist. I wouldn't do that :sweat:

Nah, I didn't think that. I don't even really like chemists, lol. Just thought they needed to be given their due. Drain Kiss kinda kills every other ability in the game. :sweat:

[Coinspinner]

Originally posted by Xavius
(...) and even turn a person into a Dragon (though graphics do not change stats do for the battle). (...)

Which Mix is that? Dragon's Kiss? Always wondered what that did...

[tazirai]

baddoomp