Pulling Politely (No, really...)

[little ninja]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

I dunno, there is some obvious bias there. BBQ has made clear his lack of understanding of how to play RDM correctly.

You expected fair and balanced?

You know you could have actually responded with what OMG over looked.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

You know you could have actually responded with what OMG over looked.

Feh, what the hell do I know? Clearly Murphie is able to spot the flaw in my post, but doesn't have to explain it to us.

[DakAttack]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Leveling as if you were doing Steamed Sprouts is not the best way to handle a party. Having a Bard keep n amount of enemies asleep as you kill them off one by one will keep the bard from keeping the party buffed.

If anything he should have asked you to pull at around 15 or 10%, have the monster back before the current is dead, and have the bard sleep THAT one until you're ready for it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Leveling as if you were doing Steamed Sprouts is not the best way to handle a party. Having a Bard keep n amount of enemies asleep as you kill them off one by one will keep the bard from keeping the party buffed.

If anything he should have asked you to pull at around 15 or 10%, have the monster back before the current is dead, and have the bard sleep THAT one until you're ready for it.

That's the main problem with BRDs, they're invited to pull just as much as they're invited to buff, but I've noticed not all of them are disciplined at pulling.

Pulling for a PT is like camping an NM in some ways. Its a game of anticipation and trusting your assessment of your PTs kill-speed. Its also a matter of being able to look around and see that next pull while you attend to your current duty, be that buffing, cures, or DD in COR's case.

To pull and keep buffs up is knowing when to leave that fight and anticipate or know where the next mob will be. BRDs used to be able to do this, but since TP burn its fallen by the wayside. Hell, some BRDs don't even have a /WHM sub in the event they're not pulling. That's sad.

[little ninja]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Feh, what the hell do I know? Clearly Murphie is able to spot the flaw in my post, but doesn't have to explain it to us.

They told me in a post a few weeks back that endgame was more busy now then it ever was, especially on my server. they then stated about several sites said this. When i asked him to post proof of this. I never saw them in the thread again.

Dont waste your time having them state their claim. It will be nothing nobody doesnt already know about. Then they will stop visiting the thread. That is unless they've already stopped.

[Mhurron]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

about BBQ, what he said is true.
Rdm's role may vary a lot.
Outside EXP party, Rdm can do many other things.
But.
In EXP party, Rdm is prefered as a full time mage.

He compared a COR using and doing everything they can do to a RDM doing only what most parties ask them to do. A lot of parties would be fine with RDM doing nothing but refresh, that would fall into catagorizing a RDM in EXP as nothing but a backline mage, that doesn't mean that is a fair description of the job. (Not that bbq went that far, but they did compare a job doing everything it can to one that is expected to use only a part of what it was given).

Also, the final wrap up placing RDM as just some thowaway piece of gear, a BRD as good gear but COR is "OMGHOLYSHITTHATSAWESOME!" is what shows bbq's bias more then anything else in the thread.

[Spiritbear]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

He compared a COR using and doing everything they can do to a RDM doing only what most parties ask them to do. A lot of parties would be fine with RDM doing nothing but refresh, that would fall into catagorizing a RDM in EXP as nothing but a backline mage, that doesn't mean that is a fair description of the job. (Not that bbq went that far, but they did compare a job doing everything it can to one that is expected to use only a part of what it was given).

Also, the final wrap up placing RDM as just some thowaway piece of gear, a BRD as good gear but COR is "OMGHOLYSHITTHATSAWESOME!" is what shows bbq's bias more then anything else in the thread.

BBQ was trying to answer the OP. He wanted info about Cor and Brd. BBQ just gave his opinon, biased or not it is his opinion. I think it is a valid opinion too. Not saying that Rdm couldn't do more in a party, but like you said that is what they are asked to do and usually end up doing. So, BBQ's opinion would be valid. I have partied alot with my Whm, Bst and Pld and would still rather a Cor in the party over a Brd or Rdm. Not saying that I don't party with the other two jobs, just that if all three were seeking I would choose Cor > Rdm > Brd in that order. So in my opinion Cor would be the best choice and BBQ would be correct.

[Murphie]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

I thought I explained everything very well. It's not my job to tell BBQ how to play RDM. I've tried to explain how he's wrong in the past with little result. He's far too hard-headed to concede a point, or to admit that he might not know what the hell he's talking about from time to time.

And Little Ninja, don't even get me started. You are the poster child for consistently misunderstanding and misconstruing information presented to you by other posters. You say the most ridiculous things, and then when you are called on it, you start talking about something else. Plus, most people can barely understand what you're saying because you are incapable of spelling above a third grade level. I haven't dodged any points with you. Saying otherwise is an outright lie.

As Mhurron already pointed out, BBQ compared three jobs, only two of which he actually understands. One he limited to only what a party wants from it, the other from what it can do when pushed to the limits of party play, and the other to some sort of crazy god-like job that doesn't even exist in this game. And you people have the audacity to say that there is no bias there?

Ridiculous.

BBQ was trying to answer the OP. He wanted info about Cor and Brd. BBQ just gave his opinon, biased or not it is his opinion. I think it is a valid opinion too. Not saying that Rdm couldn't do more in a party, but like you said that is what they are asked to do and usually end up doing. So, BBQ's opinion would be valid. I have partied alot with my Whm, Bst and Pld and would still rather a Cor in the party over a Brd or Rdm. Not saying that I don't party with the other two jobs, just that if all three were seeking I would choose Cor > Rdm > Brd in that order. So in my opinion Cor would be the best choice and BBQ would be correct.

I'm well aware of what an opinion is. But I'm allowed to call it biased if I want. That's MY opinion.

A BRD is asked to pull and do a bit of buffing. A COR is asked to do the same. How is that anything more than what a RDM is asked to do? We are asked to main heal, backup heal, enfeeble, remove status, buff the party, occasionally pull or off-tank, and generally keep the party going. A BRD or a COR isn't going to keep the party going. They are going to help the party do well when it is going, but neither can main heal, neither can enfeeble very much (beyond sleep and slow), neither can remove status (unless they sub WHM, and then good luck pulling). They can both buff the party and pull, but good luck off-tanking.

[Spiritbear]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

As Mhurron already pointed out, BBQ compared three jobs, only two of which he actually understands. One he limited to only what a party wants from it, the other from what it can do when pushed to the limits of party play, and the other to some sort of crazy god-like job that doesn't even exist in this game. And you people have the audacity to say that there is no bias there?

So you say that you don't even know much about COR or BRD, but BBQ is totally right. How does that make any sense at all?

I said that BBQ is right in the fact that is his opinion and that I agree. I don't have to play the job to understand what it can and can't do I have seen Rdm solo shit that most jobs can't, I have been in the same party and rep a brd with Cor (and vice-versa) and seen the difference in exp change when they would switch out. It was always the same Cor always helped the exp jump up a bit. I have a habit of paying attention to what all the jobs in the party are doing so I have a good idea of what they can do so I know what I would like in the parties when I make my own.

Everything on this site is subject to opinion. Everytime someone ask about what job they should play, all the responses are based on the responders bias toward a certain job. I certainly would never suggest anyone lvl Brd but others might so anyone saying that BBQ being biased is a bad thing is just flat out ridiculous. BBQ gives valid opinions about Cor and if he gives opinions that you don't agree with then you tear him down and try to make his opinion count for nothing, when in fact his opinion could be the one thing that keeps someone playing FFXI rather then going to WoW or some other MMO. Just like anyone else on this site.

Everyone needs to stop tearing everyone else apart and just give there opinions about the OPs and carry-on. If you disagree with something then let your opinion be known and let it be if someone is going to change their opinion then it will happen when a valid point is given to them, not after several post of arguing.

[Murphie]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

So, because he's saying BRD and COR are super awesome, and RDM is just average, but I'm saying that he's wrong, his opinion is right, but mine isn't?

What sort of logic is that?

[Ziero]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Personally I've had a brd puller in CN before and it was freaking awesome. I believe the set up was Whm, Brd, Drk, Mnk, Nin and Rng and from the moment the brd showed up to the moment he unfortunately d/c'd for the rest of the night he did all of three things. Buff the melees, buff the (very bored) whm and pull. Didn't say a word, (prolly cause he was jp) just came in, did his thing and let us slaughter whatever poor mob he brought back to camp. Now this wasn't that '4 mobs at once' hoarding method mentioned mentioned earlier, but this was the 'slept mob waiting at camp for chaining' method.

Now on the opposite end of the spectrum I remember one pt with a brd I'm glad we didn't pt with. It was at 37 and the first thing she did was argue that the war tank should sub nin instead of mnk, with two mnks in the pt. Then when the pt leader told her she was pulling she said she didn't have the spells to pull, pt leader told her to buy one of the 200 gil spells in jeuno. She responded that he(as a mnk) should pull with pebbles instead. Eventually she got booted from the pt and was replaced by a rdm which ended up making the War tank pull (who was a great tank with /mnk sub).

But basically the point of this post is that *good* brds can pull at any lvl, and still maintain their duties in a pt. Not saying Cors can't pull, as I've had a few decent Cor pullers as well, just saying it's not a case of one being better then another.

[eticket109]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Sleep pulling multiple mobs at 40 is probably one of the quickest routes to 39.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

So, because he's saying BRD and COR are super awesome, and RDM is just average, but I'm saying that he's wrong, his opinion is right, but mine isn't?

RDM does nothing outstanding where buffs are concerned, the difference in buffs lies in they're all single-target for RDM, but they're nowhere near the power of what COR and BRD can do. RDM's specialty is in enfeebling, refresh, backup cures and magic bursting, none of which COR and BRD do well save for refreshing.

RDM is about PT endurace. Its partly the reason why they're preferred in PLD tank PTs over BRD and COR and its also why they're more proficent in solo than BRD and COR.

RDM cripples mobs, BRD and COR enhance PT members.
RDM gives a PT endurance, BRD and COR give PTs power.
RDM is a constant balancing act, COR and BRD... not so much.
All dispel

The jobs are totally different otherwise, but serve to meet the same ends.

I've only stated the facts between the jobs, I've played all to a reasonably high level. You can't wave a level 75 RDM over my 65 RDM because by that level all that's left to learn are tier 3 elemental magic spells. That has no barring on what else a RDM can do for a PT.

Only other thing I could possibly add about COR and BRD is that they have opportunities to play other roles in PT that generally not accepted for RDMs to do.

BRD excels at pulling and past 72, COR isn't shabby in that regard. COR is welcomed to DD on the frontlines while RDM commonly is not; this is compounded by the presense of BLU in the game. COR and BRD are welcomed to sub /NIN in PT, even /RNG for COR, but /NIN poses no PT benefit for RDM.

Can RDM pull and sleep mobs? Sure, they can use ranged and sleep, but I don't see it commonly, you'd have to give up a slot for phantom/morion tathlum or hedgehog bomb to do so. And just like main healing, not everyone likes pulling, I know COR and BRDs like that.

RDM's role is very much established in the minds of the community.
People really only warmed up to BRD late in CoPs and very much so in ToA, so its finally seeing some true exploration.
COR is still a young job and one with untapped potentials, lots of pioneering left to do.

I think you're the biased one here. And just the fact that you have the audacity to question my skill as a RDM without seeing it first hand is arrogant and stupid.

[Sevv]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Ok on the brd v rdm v cor. On boosts to party skills/etc Cor and Brd > rdm. No im not saying cor and brd better then rdm, because i go for the rdm as my first mage. And BBQ's comment about being reliable isnt a burn, Rdm is a solid relaible job for a pt. They dont have the "flash" that cor or brd get from parties. Rdm is the best main healer IMHO in burn/merit pts. I tend to get to brds over cor because in my experiance i havent met too many good cor, and personally i think brds pull better. I have met a few good cors and what they do is great. There is no brd/cor/rdm > the other 2 overall, Depending on your pt and set up that will determine the best job for your pt.

to the OP: every party has thier own style of play some people want different pullers, gun delay as bbq stated gets better with the peace maker.

[Ziero]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

....back on topic

Multi-mob pulling at low lvls is dangerous and stupid unless the mobs are all EM or low T or something. But Brd is still a highly efficiant puller in the 40s. Cor however is also a very good puller as gun speed only affects competitive camps, and if you're competing for pulls at lower lvls it's not a very good camp. A good pt will be able to let their puller run off before the mob is dead and grab a new mob to bring back to camp. By the time the new mob arrives the old one should just have died so everyone can jump right on the new one. This tactic works as low as the dunes as I've used this exact method personally and many times. The trick is to go after low IT, VT or even T mobs so you can kill them quickly. Pts that go after IT++ are just going to slow themselves down no matter who is pulling.