Pulling Politely (No, really...)

[Spiritbear]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

So, because he's saying BRD and COR are super awesome, and RDM is just average, but I'm saying that he's wrong, his opinion is right, but mine isn't?

What sort of logic is that?

Did you see anywhere in my statments that I said you were wrong? I stated my opinion about the OP, then my opinion about someone saying that BBQ was wrong. I just pointed out that BBQ is expressing his opinion and is not wrong in his opinion and the way you made it into a discussion about how he was wrong in his opinion. I was pointing out a better way to handle the situation by not arguing about an opinion and just stating yours and carrying-on. You don't have to tell someone they are wrong about something, this is not just directed at you either it is for everyone, just express your opinion and leave it at that. I never once said anyone was wrong, I said that I agreed with BBQ's opinion.


Back to the OP.
Every job pulls differently and every party wants it done differently. I have seen every job in the game pull on more then one occation and it all works out in the end. Either the entire party wipes and you find a different puller or your party get's exp. But you have to play the way the party wants or don't party with them. The best way to have the party run the way you would like it to make it yourself.

I would like to appologize to the OP for your post becoming an argument.

[Karinya]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

RDM cripples mobs, BRD and COR enhance PT members.
RDM gives a PT endurance, BRD and COR give PTs power.

I think this puts a finger on the difference between the jobs, and also why RDM is at a disadvantage in many merit setups. (Relative to BRD or COR, that is. Because those jobs are respectively rare and ultra-rare, RDM still usually has no problem finding a party - many parties are willing to settle for a RDM even if they are less effective for the party's setup and target choice.)

RDM is more focused on reducing the monster's ability to damage the party, while BRD and COR are more focused on enhancing the party's ability to damage the monster. (Not 100% - there's still Gravity, Dia, Elegy - but mostly.) Incidentally, I don't see any mention of one of RDM's most important enfeebles that neither COR nor BRD shares: Silence. A RDM crushes most casters the way a MNK crushes bones; they have especially powerful tools against those specific monster types.

In party setups where the monster is too weak to fight back (either an actual T, something whose stats should make it a T but is rated VT by exp tables, or a monster family that's just hopelessly weak like colibris), RDM is pointless - why bother weakening the offense of a monster that doesn't have any worth worrying about to begin with?

Like many other balance problems (IMO), this would be implicitly fixed if fighting difficult monsters provided as much EXP/hr as fighting weak ones. But it doesn't, so only party setups that are good against weak monsters are considered "successful".

RDM is a constant balancing act, COR and BRD... not so much.
All dispel

All dispel, but not equally well. SMN and BLU can dispel too, but neither has a full set of support tools (although they can contribute quite usefully, it's still a good idea to have one of the big 3).

Although I wouldn't say that COR and BRD are not balancing acts. You have a limited number of buff slots that you have to fill with the most useful buffs possible, and in COR's case you also have timing restrictions and have to trade off pushing for greater buff effectiveness vs. avoiding excessive bust risk. Plus the general balancing of time spent buffing/debuffing vs. time spent pulling which anyone in a support/puller role has to deal with.

Can RDM pull and sleep mobs? Sure, they can use ranged and sleep, but I don't see it commonly, you'd have to give up a slot for phantom/morion tathlum or hedgehog bomb to do so. And just like main healing, not everyone likes pulling, I know COR and BRDs like that.

There's no reason for RDM to use a ranged weapon to pull, unless you are camped in an area with arcana and don't want to fight the arcana (I can't think of any camps that meet that description). Otherwise just pull with a quick-casting spell. (Not a DoT if you intend to sleep the monster at camp, of course.) Pulling spellcasters with Silence is strongly recommended unless you expect them to have shadows, since it starts them chasing you immediately instead of casting a spell. In fact, the ability to Silence pull makes RDM the *preferred* pullers in some situations (e.g. KRT manaburns).

Not that it would really matter if you did give up the tathlum, though. 2 INT and what, 5 max MP? It's only there because there isn't anything better, not because it actually has a noticeable impact on performance.

RDM don't need Utsusemi to pull because unlike COR and BRD, they have full-strength Stoneskin native to the job (and Fast Cast so it doesn't take all day); in some camps /NIN can still be helpful, but it isn't as big a deal as it is for pullers with no other way of protecting themselves.


To return to the original post: If you have more than 2 mobs sleeping in your camp and you're below level 70, you're probably going to get your party wiped as soon as you get a bad resist. Lower level parties generally fight mobs that are actually dangerous to them, and that means resists can happen fairly often, and multiple mobs that aren't quickly reslept will be very dangerous.

Even in merit it should very rarely be necessary to have that many sleeping mobs (unless you just pulled a bst+pet or something like that). As long as you have at least one mob arriving by the time the previous one dies, there's no reason to accept the extra costs and risks of keeping more mobs sleeping, unless you are trying to hog them away from other parties (which is just being an asshole.) The point of pre-pulling is to keep your DDs working continuously, but your DDs can't kill more than one monster at a time without *waking up* more than one monster at a time, which is generally Bad.

Good crowd control is still useful at low levels, but it's mainly for *unwanted* extra monsters.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

I think this puts a finger on the difference between the jobs, and also why RDM is at a disadvantage in many merit setups. (Relative to BRD or COR, that is. Because those jobs are respectively rare and ultra-rare, RDM still usually has no problem finding a party - many parties are willing to settle for a RDM even if they are less effective for the party's setup and target choice.)

Actually, as it stands now, COR feels like the one that's "settled for."

BLMs love CORs to death, really love them, even more than BRD because we have the mage buffs in our corner. But occasionally with melee PTs its "What is it you do, exactly? I've never PTed with a COR."

The job is still young, but some people are on to what COR is capable of. Pity a lot of CORs themselves are not and just see it a refresher with an excuse to DD.

All dispel, but not equally well. SMN and BLU can dispel too, but neither has a full set of support tools (although they can contribute quite usefully, it's still a good idea to have one of the big 3).

Although I wouldn't say that COR and BRD are not balancing acts. You have a limited number of buff slots that you have to fill with the most useful buffs possible, and in COR's case you also have timing restrictions and have to trade off pushing for greater buff effectiveness vs. avoiding excessive bust risk. Plus the general balancing of time spent buffing/debuffing vs. time spent pulling which anyone in a support/puller role has to deal with.

The trade off on Quick Draw is important to note, best COR can ever do with merits is getting it down to 50 seconds. This isn't a problem for me when I'm simulating the BRD style of pulling (pull, sleep, buff, run back out to pull again), but when it comes to Dark Shot, its a bit more frustrating. BRD also is saddled with a longer recast timer for Finale. RDM's Dispel has the lowest recast, it just cost MP whereas BRD's is free and COR's comes at the expense of a consumable.

And I probably just said COR and BRD are less of a juggling act to me now that I'm on my third support class, I can slip into any of those roles without missing a beat. I know my target rolls by heart, altered my chat log to see every mob buff for the purpose of dispelling it. All my macros follow the same layout. Even with RNG, Acid Bolts are right where I would put Dispel.

With COR, I take all I've learned about enfeebles and apply that to Quick Draw, I can balance my PTs buffs out because I used to analyze gear, food and the works for a PT setup as BRD. Pulls? BRD and RNG taught me that. So all that's left is tracking my lucky and unluckys and knowing my other target numbers for each roll. I don't bust a lot.

Feels less busy because I'm experienced elsewhere, back when I did RDM and BRD it felt a bit more hectic at first, but balanced out over time.

[Eiyoko]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Thank you, Spiritbear, for your kind words. Apparently my intent has slipped and people have fallen into some petty, childish argument over which job is better.

My intent for this was not to say which job was better. My intent for this was not to know what job does what. My intent for this was NOT for people to argue like children.

As for this nonsensical argument going on here...I'm going to keep my mouth shut for the sake of decency. I'm remaining neutral, got it? You people carry on with this nonsense. I'll have no part in it.

But do me a favor and act your age.

Oh, by the way. I'm not pointing any fingers, so don't even start that.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

Also, the final wrap up placing RDM as just some thowaway piece of gear, a BRD as good gear but COR is "OMGHOLYSHITTHATSAWESOME!" is what shows bbq's bias more then anything else in the thread.

RDM is like balanced, reliable equipment, BRD is like free HQ gear and food, COR is like free merits you didn't know you had.

I don't know, Mhurron; it's not exactly a huge bias. I mean, I'd normally advise people to keep "balanced, reliable equipment", and not call it a "throwaway".

BBQ did mention a RDM supports a party in part by curing, though one can complain he didn't give it enough weight. Overall, RDM is more flexible than BRD or COR, so I guess you can fault him for lack of emphasis on that, and called RDM's "balanced, reliable" instead of "flexible and adaptable to any situation"? Both points are minor quibbles, though.

Doesn't seem like he slighted RDM in any major way; it's a reasonable (if not all encompassing) comparison of support role jobs. Most importantly, his post gave me a better understanding of when COR and BRD would shine--even if it is off topic in some ways. >_>;

* * *

Anyone--on any job, leader or otherwise--asking a Crawlers Nest party to pull four monsters at once is either insane, an idiot, or knows something I don't.

To ensure flowing exp chain, you'd want one monster in the queue by the time the current target dies. Each additional monster in queue gives additional--but diminishing--assurance of that flow, but in return adds additional--and increasing--amount of risk.

* * *

I've only seen BRD pulling closely once, and that was BRD/RDM in a roaming party, targeting weapons. She'd pull one monster within view of the party, Lullaby it, go to party, Ballad x2, then run off. By the time she pulls back and Lullaby the next critter, the party would be on the one previously slept, and she'd switch to melee buff songs. Then, she'd repeat the routine again.

So, basically there's one monster in the queue at a time. Once in a while, there would be none (oddball quick kill), or there would be two (oddball slow kill) in the queue , but vast majority of the time there is one, and only one snoozing monster waiting to be slaughtered.

It seems to work well enough; is there really a need to sleep four monsters at a time, outside of competitive pulling area?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

BBQ did mention a RDM supports a party in part by curing, though one can complain he didn't give it enough weight. Overall, RDM is more flexible than BRD or COR, so I guess you can fault him for lack of emphasis on that, and called RDM's "balanced, reliable" instead of "flexible and adaptable to any situation"? Both points are minor quibbles, though.

We could go further with it, but its just not worth it. To them, I'm biased, but they refuse to make a good case to support it. Obviously, experience in the three support classes is not sufficient qualification to these two, I've apparently missed some great detail about RDM... or they simply did not like how I worded it.

More often than not Murphie and Mhurron need someone else to post something they agree with rather than formulate a worthwhile and informative counterpoint. Then Murph thanks the hell out of them for thinking for him.

But I digress, we've gone far enough off-topic.

To ensure flowing exp chain, you'd want one monster in the queue by the time the current target dies. Each additional monster in queue gives additional--but diminishing--assurance of that flow, but in return adds additional--and increasing--amount of risk.

That's pretty much how it works. From the day I started BRD pulling, I left at about 1/3rd HP to bring a mob back and sleep it, then PT moved on to that one. With mobs in ToA zones being as week as they are, a BRD or COR can stand to leave earlier than that and sleeps are way more reliable.

But in my stint in GC as BST, I saw many PTs pulling with BRD and trying to sleep multiple beetles and bats. Given the defense of beetles, it doesn't work so well. Beetles and bats are very susceptable to light based sleep, but no real need to take four at once.

People are really just to giddy on the whole BRD pulling trend, its trickled down too far. I know BRDs that have HNM pearls, but no /WHM sub. I know CORs that will not give up a DD slot to play pure support or pull. That's every bit as inflexible as a RDM that doesn't want to main heal. Then there's the WAR who refuse to tank and etc, etc.

Point is, people zero in on the aspect of the job the like and tend to ignore everything else. And its a common issue just about everywhere in the game.

[Murphie]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

We could go further with it, but its just not worth it. To them, I'm biased, but they refuse to make a good case to support it. Obviously, experience in the three support classes is not sufficient qualification to these two, I've apparently missed some great detail about RDM... or they simply did not like how I worded it.

More often than not Murphie and Mhurron need someone else to post something they agree with rather than formulate a worthwhile and informative counterpoint. Then Murph thanks the hell out of them for thinking for him.

But I digress, we've gone far enough off-topic.

Thanks, BBQ.

[Sevv]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

murphie what did bbq miss about rdm, i thaugh she was pretty well on point.

[Aeolus]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

e-peen 1 hits e-peen 2 for 198 points of damage!

[Sevv]

Re: Pulling Politely (No, really...)

e-peen 1 hits e-peen 2 for 198 points of damage!

i lold