TP Burn

[Kitalrez]

Re: TP Burn

I've personally started referring to TP burn as "tardburn," because it basically boils down to the loss of skillchain and magic burst damage in favor of killing T or VT and hiding behind Utsusemi. It may be "efficient" in the minds of some, but beating on weak mobs is nothing to be proud of.
Worst part is it seems to make people function weakly in high level or just critical situations and that it is also very taxing on the sole mage you invite as main healer. These mobs might be weak and while people may go /NIN to think they're helping not become a MP sink, there are plenty of mob AoE and multi-hit attacks to wipe those shadows and turn them into an MP sponge anyway.

Yeah, I can't really agree strongly enough with the "tard-burn" impression. I've done a number of these as SMN. While I'm probably not going to be invited first on anyone's list for a TP burn, I don't do a half bad job of helping to keep everyone's shadows up the entire fight IF THEY LET ME. The problem as I see it is that my entire usefulness to a party depends on the capitalized part of that statement.

For instance, my last three or four TP burn parties I got invited to DD/support heal. Now, as soon as the mob, (an imp), hit camp, every melee in the area jumped on it and started going to town. This is going on as I'm running forward with Garuda out to signal the Predator Claws. Given how fast imps gain TP, (they're almost impossible to miss in melee), the upshot of this scenario is that almost 9 times out of 10, I ended up either silenced so I couldn't help heal, or 'stuffed' by Amnesia. Just so you melees understand what I mean by 'stuffed', if a SMN has amnesia, I can't signal a Bloodpact, nor can my avatar land one if I've already managed to signal it. Also, (if this wasn't bad enough), I can't release my avatar or even tell it to do something as simple as attacking the mob until amnesia wears, meaning my mp is slowly wasting away the entire time. We had a RDM in the party, but she subbed /BLM to help debuffs land, so I'm sort of out on a limb as far as curing silence. I ran through my own supply of echo drops in the first 20 minutes alone. For any of you still unclear on this concept, allow me to introduce myself: I'm the 'deadweight' in this party.

For the next half hour in each of these parties, I'm trying to convince these morons to start doing things they should've learned how to do in Valkurm Dunes. We had 3 people pulling, (2 other parties in the area, so they thought we should have people near every possible spawn point JIC), not one of these pullers had a /gsay message telling us when they were pulling. Having two imps arrive in camp simultaneously from opposite directions was not uncommon, as was running a mob directly over the mages while they healed mp. I also spent a fruitless 15-20 minutes trying to get our DD to realize they could hold off a few seconds til I landed the BP before engaging and building up the imp's TP. That's the whole reason to invite a SMN into one of these, so you can have the imp beat on an avatar for 10-15 seconds while everyone else builds the TP for big WS or Light skillchains. Heck, if you do it right, the mob doesn't stay standing longer than a minute or so, and by then I'm more than ready to mess with the next pull.

I lasted less than an hour in all these parties. After so much fighting, I decided the exp/hr wasn't worth the hassle and found someone else to replace me. Right now, I'm 71 SMN and highly interested in hitting 75. However, if I get any kind of invite these days, I do a /sea all to check whether you're in a TAU zone. If I see you even in Whitegate, I'm not interested. I'll solo myself to 75 rather than try another of these parties. This is coming from a player with all but 5 jobs in game through Valkurm Dunes. I'll forgive this stuff from newbies, but if you're still playing like a newbie in the 70's, I don't wanna be anywhere within 5 zones of you. I'm not going to take a chance that some of your taint will rub off on me.

TP-burn a fast, easy way to make exp in a hurry, but the downside is that all the 'experience' is in numbered form only. These are just as bad as the other kinds of burn parties. These players can hit 75 fast, but they show up to your mission or Dynamis raid and it's like you're taking the place on with a crapload of lvl 15's again.

[Icemage]

Re: TP Burn

We had a RDM in the party, but she subbed /BLM to help debuffs land, so I'm sort of out on a limb as far as curing silence. I ran through my own supply of echo drops in the first 20 minutes alone. For any of you still unclear on this concept, allow me to introduce myself: I'm the 'deadweight' in this party.

Don't attack with avatars in Caedarva if you're a SMN. Amnesia and Silence are both crippling for you. While I don't prefer SMN as a main healer, they're pretty effective at it when everyone has shadows.

Your other option is to use Titan's Mountain Buster to get around the Amnesia problem. Mountain Buster has really good range, certainly more than enough to avoid getting either effect.

As for dead weight, that RDM is an idiot. You don't sub BLM to land enfeebles. Tell him to get his ass in gear and get some real Enfeebling Magic gear if he's having trouble. /BLM doesn't do anything for accuracy unless you use Elemental Seal, and that's only once every 10 minutes.

I'll forgive this stuff from newbies, but if you're still playing like a newbie in the 70's, I don't wanna be anywhere within 5 zones of you. I'm not going to take a chance that some of your taint will rub off on me.

TP-burn a fast, easy way to make exp in a hurry, but the downside is that all the 'experience' is in numbered form only. These are just as bad as the other kinds of burn parties. These players can hit 75 fast, but they show up to your mission or Dynamis raid and it's like you're taking the place on with a crapload of lvl 15's again.

A lot of people wonder why good HNM LSs these days are so selective about who they let join. This is one reason.


Icemage

[Jaxom]

Re: TP Burn

I haven't been in a TP burn pt since ToAU first came out, and at that time (at least in all the pts I was in) our setup usually included 2 mages, myself (rdm) and either a whm or a blm (although) generally not both. It seems now to be down to rdm and/or (mostly or) brd only.

I will say I have limited sympathy for blm who are left out because I remember getting incredibly slow xp several times, because our pts suffered from not having a blm to burst, as even 2 rdm in the same pt cannot come close to matching the burst of a good blm. All the blms were off doing their manaburn pts and if I saw one building and asked to come, the response was usually BRD ONRY! However, there is still some sympathy because as was stated above, most the blm who are suffering now are not the ones who part of the big manaburn period. In addition, those who did suffer because of all the previous burn pts, you know what it's like, and so I would think you wouldn't wish that same situation on anyone else.

While the xp from TP burn pts is usually nice, I also agree witht he statement that it leads to creating ever more HL characters, controlled by players who have no idea what they're doing. This may no be a problem for some who are part of linkshells full of HLs, it is for those of us who are part of linkshells with few HLs who rely on PUGs to get non-Dynamis or HNM activities done that require help.

Here is an example of just how much tp burn pts have contributed to the lack of knowledge/skill of many players: I joined a skillup party to get rid of latents on my sapara of trials, and ended up leaving after only a few fights, as not a single person in the party (5 members including myself) other than me knew how to skillchain!!! That is IMO, just pathetic.

-probably some spelling/grammar issues here--sorry, I'm sick today

[tdh]

Re: TP Burn

I must have some luck after all, because I've never had even a percentage of the bad luck some of you have had with TP Burns. Now I've had all the bad luck when it comes to Manaburns, but not TP Burns. Part of this has stemed from only doing these things with LS members who I know are top players, on top of players that I trust.

At Lv.71 I started to do some Burn parties Vs. Imps in the Mire. Tank, usually a NIN, melee with a big WS (DRG, WAR, & RNG usually), BLM, SMN, WHM, and myself as RDM. BLM and SMN would almost duo the Imp before it could decide which it hated more and take off after them. This worked amazing well until everybody and their Taru cousin flocked there. The SMN had some problems with Amnesia, but he usually had Garuda ready as soon as the Imp got to camp. So as soon as it was in range, BAM! 1200dmg Then the BLM would wait a second and then finish it off.

I think I've only had 1 bad TP Burn. Most of my usual Sky Burn members had things to do that night. So myself and one of the WARs decided to build our own group. BRD couldn't keep songs up on anybody, and the other WARs just didn't live up. My WAR buddy is exceptional. His Rampages were always 1~1.5k, the other WARs were having problems staying in the 500's.

I guess the only issue I have with TP Burns is that I can't find/build a group that isn't one. There's still one camp I like to hit that has VT-ITs at Lv.75. It's typically a PLD and BLM camp, but I have to pull people's arms to get them out there. Last time I went, I grabbed a SMN and BLM from the LS, and began the begging. Finally picked up a PLD, MNK, & DRK. With 3 MB's per Darkness Skillchain we sprinkled in Chain #6 a few times. We'd do it more often just can't get people together. "Left out" PLDs wanna go /NIN and TP Burn, BLMs wanna Manaburn, and all the SMNs are snatched up on WHM duty.

[Vyuru]

Re: TP Burn

I'm not saying the current burn mentality is any more right, but if you want to make it out to some kind of sob story that blm and rng are now at the bottom of the invite pile where all the melee used to be, you can cry me a river.

I'd have to agree with that... I feel bad for the people who are the current non favorite jobs, but IMO it's not as "horrible" as people are making it out to be since this has happened since day 1 practically. Are you going to invite that level 13 thief to your party?

The only difference now is that it is happening to the jobs that used to be considered the kings of DD.

The best setup is still the balanced setup for most mobs, people just refuse to go the traditional route these days out of pure greed, the Sanction buff gives an EXP bonus and with Empress Band or Corsair's Roll factored in, people just look at the bottom line EXP rather than balanced PT mechanics now.

I just love it when people in my party say, "let's go to (insert ToAU zone here)"

I check the zone, 9+ parties in our level range, supposedly can support 3 parties.

I check some other non ToAU zone, 0 parties, 5 tumbleweeds, and a whole bunch of mobs just waiting for nonstop chaining with a standard party.

Yup, I'd rather take the zone with fewer parties.


But let's be honest here, how many people actually go and make a party? It's not as often now that I'm at level 67 only because there aren't as many lvl 60ish people, but in my 50s I would see at least enough people to make 5+ good decent parties all sitting there lfg, and no one would assume the leadership role.

So how much of this is actual job discrimination and how much of this is just people being lazy and not wanting to actually start a party?

[Akashimo]

Re: TP Burn

Oi, this past weekend I've just stopped exping on thf and meriting on whm. Just the mentality of knowing there is gonna be a TP-Burn invite is sicking -.-... /sea all 73-75 and yea nothing but tp-burn melees. Lfp invites, all ToAU areas. To say the least, I love the convential setup and if i see the jobs for it lfp I nab them and head out to Bibiki gobs or some other non Mire zone >>;....my luck for that, nada. No blm, brd and rarely any whm or rdm lfp when tanks are <.< >.>; Bring back the old days of pre ToAU for exp~!

[Loial]

Re: TP Burn

The goal of most people in a PT is to get exp to level or get merits. On one hand, those merits can be spent to open up new abilities or increase the "on-paper" skills of the job. I don't think it waters down the player's skill at all. But that might be on an individual basis.

All jobs are not created equal. That's a simple fact and people should get over it. I've played MMOs where the developers re-tooled classes/jobs/etc to make them more "balanced" and all it did was destroy the game for a lot of people.

[Jaxom]

Re: TP Burn

All jobs are not created equal. That's a simple fact and people should get over it. I've played MMOs where the developers re-tooled classes/jobs/etc to make them more "balanced" and all it did was destroy the game for a lot of people.

I agree with this, at least to a certain extent. The jobs are not created equal, and nor should they be entirely equal. They have their areas of expertise. However, I don't think the jobs themselves are the problem here, and as such it is not the jobs that need to be adjusted. I think the mobs in ToAU areas need to be adjusted some. Reason being, while TP burns are great xp for those who are in them, they cause several problems, as mentioned above:

1. They Have a tendency to create players who do not truly know how to play their jobs (and playing with these people in any situation outside of tp burn, can be aggrivating to say the least).
2. FFXI has been designed to promote a certain type of party setup and play, with variations of course, but one that generally provides a spot for all jobs, and tp burns are destroying that

Some might argue that blm, one of the most often excluded jobs, can just go start a manaburn party. Well, this is difficult if all the rdms/brds are busy in tp burn parties, which in my own personal experience, required less work than manaburn parties.

For me, one of the things I like about online games is that you get to enjoy it with other people. However, when I'm off trying to accomplish whatever task, in a group, and those who are with me have no understanding of several aspects of how their job might function in these situations (because they only do tp burns, which IMO require minimal skill), I no longer enjoy interacting with them. While there is a relatively large number of players on each server, the problem of players who don't have a very good understanding of their job (particularly HL players) seems to be increasing rather quickly.

[Loial]

Re: TP Burn

You learn your job by trying to improve how you play it. TP burn PT has nothing to do with it at all. A good way to get better at your job is to try and "do more with less."

Do BCs, HNMs, Assaults, NMs, etc with less people. This puts everyone "under the gun" to not mess up. Don't miss any stuns, learn to recast shadows better, know how many ticks you can /heal until your tank will need to be cured.

[Feenicks]

Re: TP Burn

I agree, BCs and missions are really challenging most of the time and really will test your skills. Start doing CoP missions, they're pretty testing.

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: TP Burn

I'd have to agree with that... I feel bad for the people who are the current non favorite jobs, but IMO it's not as "horrible" as people are making it out to be since this has happened since day 1 practically. Are you going to invite that level 13 thief to your party?

The only difference now is that it is happening to the jobs that used to be considered the kings of DD.



I just love it when people in my party say, "let's go to (insert ToAU zone here)"

I check the zone, 9+ parties in our level range, supposedly can support 3 parties.

I check some other non ToAU zone, 0 parties, 5 tumbleweeds, and a whole bunch of mobs just waiting for nonstop chaining with a standard party.

Yup, I'd rather take the zone with fewer parties.


But let's be honest here, how many people actually go and make a party? It's not as often now that I'm at level 67 only because there aren't as many lvl 60ish people, but in my 50s I would see at least enough people to make 5+ good decent parties all sitting there lfg, and no one would assume the leadership role.

So how much of this is actual job discrimination and how much of this is just people being lazy and not wanting to actually start a party?

I think this is the mentality that is slightly responsible for the overshadowing of most occupations on FFXI, not to mention the practicalities that our community is lead to venture - valuing EXP/HR exploitation more important than a strong party balance/structure. That LV13 THF/MNK (Speaking from experience) was able to do just as much damage as the LV 13 MNK who was LFG. But people rarely take the time to think or consider the fact that a THF can hand-to-hand at those levels, and use Combo. Nevertheless, he will remain looking for parties for days until he gets a random invite or decides to man up and start his own.

Why?

"Because THF is practically worthless to a party until LV 15."
-Society

For this reason, it is idiotic for me to depend on waiting for invites from other people who wouldn't waste their time considering me for a party slot; If I held that attitude, wouldn't have reached where I am now.

Forget the biased opinionated social dogmas that our players develop or have had developed since square 1; If the TP burn or the Mana burn - Axe burn - Hand-to-hand burn, knife burn etc works, by all means use it. Ignorance is developed, however, when we claim that XYZ job is useless because ABC can basically EXP faster without them, or have skills that make missions a quick breeze. It becomes full blown Ignorance when this starts to become like a diehard truth.

As for me, personally - Though the damage and experience chain might become obsolete, I don't mind the idea of main tanks. Or DDs. Or Burst Damage. Since we're pretty much working towards the same goal. And as long as we're on the same page and in each other's interest, balanced party structure is and will always be part of my game strat.

But yeah. LFG and waiting for /NIN to grab its past due penalties is probably a good analogy to end on.

[Deeman]

Re: TP Burn

Yeah y'know ... I recall a point in FFXI history when manaburn and arrowburn were buzzwords and you couldn't get a rng or blm to accept an invite to a normal party because they could get much better exp in their burn parties. It's no wonder the current ws-spam mentality developed when most parties only had a burster once in a blue moon.
I'm not saying the current burn mentality is any more right, but if you want to make it out to some kind of sob story that blm and rng are now at the bottom of the invite pile where all the melee used to be, you can cry me a river.
The pld and smn problems are beyond the scope of tp-burn, imo.

A M E N!

[Emurei]

Re: TP Burn

Here is an example of just how much tp burn pts have contributed to the lack of knowledge/skill of many players: I joined a skillup party to get rid of latents on my sapara of trials, and ended up leaving after only a few fights, as not a single person in the party (5 members including myself) other than me knew how to skillchain!!! That is IMO, just pathetic.

-probably some spelling/grammar issues here--sorry, I'm sick today

Well there is a positive way of looking at that. They get 1 point for tossing out a random WS, just wait till you see theirs go off and chain off of it more points for you

But I can diffenently understand where most people are coming from. I'm not critcal of any job besides Sam players. But when a Sam ask the PT a SC question, I get mad, a Sam should memorized the SC chart like the back of his hand, not just their own WS, but every WS out there. -.- Pet Pev of mine.

[Sabaron]

Re: TP Burn

I dunno about SAM memorizing the chart, but at least have a copy handy.