Is it mean to kick someone because...

[Aksannyi]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

I really think it's all situational, depending on many things: the person's role in the party, the mobs you're fighting, and what it is they're doing wrong. Some mistakes are more forgivable than others, and everyone screws up from time to time. A puller who constantly pulls links, however, is someone who could stand to use a bit more guidance before getting his whole party killed, although most of the parties I've been in post-35 or so have been able to handle links with no problem thanks to Sleep/Lullaby, so it could just be a reflection on the entire party in general.

I do think that everyone deserves a chance to prove that they aren't a total screw up, though, and shouldn't be kicked until AT LEAST after the first chain ... and I think sometimes even longer. If it's something where the exp. is slower than normal but there's no real danger to the party and experience is still coming ... I say let it slide, personally. Slow xp > no xp. I hate how people think they need to get massive amounts of experience per hour in order for a party to be worth a damn.

However, if it's an issue where people are dying frequently, or coming too close for comfort, or the downtime is completely ridiculous, then that's not acceptable and something needs to be done to make sure that the party can function better as a group. Sometimes, that just means re-arranging people's roles in the party, shifting first voke, second voke, etc; deciding which mage casts which enfeebles... and on and on. Other times, the only solution is to kick someone ... or a couple of someones. I'm one of those people where if I'm the party leader, I'll do everything possible to work with the people that I have, and if nothing can be done to improve the situation, that's when I'll start kicking.

Of course, that's partially because I hate kicking people, also partially because I know that everyone is learning, and everyone has bad days.

EDIT: In terms of gear ... I think it does depend on how the player is performing. If a level 50 PLD in Lizard gear (orz) is doing just fine - including holding hate, staying alive, and not being too much of a drain on MP, then I'd probably be on the forgiving side, though I'd probably be inclined to help him get at least one new piece of equipment, if he wanted it. (Some of the people think they absolutely do not need new gear. Ever. These people are not worth the time to help out financially.)

[Jekk]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

I'm going to sound stupid, but what is a "puller"? From the name I'm guessing.. someone who gets the monster to follow them, then they run to their party? o_o; I dunno..

[Kittyneko]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

Yes that exactly, lol. ^^ They go search, and bring the monster to "Camp," the location where the other party members wait.

Double Post Edited:
You will probably pull a lot as Thief. I have never ever not pulled as Thief, and im level 72.

[Jei]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

On the topic, no, I don't think you should boot a samurai, for not having his Hauby yet, *IF* he's doing a decent job.
However, there is a difference between "slightly outdated" and plain simple crap.

Totally agree with this. Good gear doesn't have to be godly gear ^^

[Credos]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

If PT member is impeding exp gain and hurting the PT more than helping, then you have every reason to kick them.

That being said, you should also work with a PT member if they are lacking some spells/items. Not everyone will have the loads of Gil for xyz uber item.

[zagex]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

I levelled blackmage through dunes wearing rings, justice badge, friar's rope, wand, and the swimsuit (this was a bit after that event). That was most of my eq in qufim, though I think I added one or two things to that. I used the same eq for the last couple levels of whm in dunes and all of qufim.
I don't recall dying though

[Nueinx]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

Just my 2 cents, and take it with a grain of salt since I'm still pretty new to the game. In general, good gaming etiquette would say that if you're hurting the party rather than helping you shouldn't be kicked for it....you should politely bow out. Offer to help find a replacement that CAN cover the workload and work with your party. After playing MMOs for 5+ years now, I know from experience that not every person will have access to the best of the best gear. But that's not to say you can't just "man-up" (sorry ladies) and admit "My gear/spells is/are lacking...anyone got any suggestions for how I can get them up to par?" I'd rather group with a player like that any day, over someone that DOES have the best gear around and wants to act like it gives them an excuse to act like an idiot.

[Glamdring]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

Don't forget the other end of this equation, "is it ok to quit a pt because..." I was a taru rdm (no sub) main healing in the dunes. I quit my pt because they refused to watch my MP. I warned them multiple times 1st, but I still walked.

I've developed a new method now, I just don't heal the puller unless my MP is at 100% in that situation. If the tank dies because I have insufficient MP I just say "Talk to Doofus". So I sound like a whiner, I find that I lvl faster if I live and if the rest of the PT lives too...

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

Is it OK to kick someone who's pulling badly and making mistakes?

- I like to think I have the potential to be a good puller. I love those little legendary pulls where you thread the one "right" mob through a crowd of bad mobs. I love keeping the exp flowing to max exp chains and keeping the party on the edge of their toes - the more alert they are - the less sloppily they play I find. I've gone hours and hours of pulling without getting links/aggro/hate and being complimented at the end of a party - with the words:

"Wow, that was amazing - great exp, and it never stopped!" - from someone who appreciated the skill pulling can take - and it's effect on a party (it's rare that people notice things, so it stands out when another person with experience of pulling says something).

I've also had my *BAD* days. I've had days where I've caused/or been partially responsible for two or more wipes in a row, because I didn't see something spawn, or I got a bad link or... any number of reasons. They are few and far between - but on those bad days - please, kick me - as a punishment and let me save some dignity. If a person is genuinely having a bad day as a puller - you will see their loss of confidence and that's a sign to say:

"Buddy - take a break from this. If I see you searching again, I'll give you a second chance in future, but *this* moment, you're being a liability to you and us."

A good puller will know this too and accept the fact that you're saving them from trying harder to make a bad situation worse by doing more and more and more harm.


Outdated gear: This is slightly trickier - if a players gear is functional, I tend to let them get on with it - if they have a good attitude and do their job. If they have a foul attitude - they're out regardless of how ZOMG their gear is.

If a player brings something worthwhile to the party - and isn't a liability, I personally will overlook gear for attitude/work rate.

I guess I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt.

/slight derail
When making parties myself.. I'm happy taking on newbies - however - I tend to check the basics before inviting them. War/Mnk - Axe/Shield or Great Axe - {Do you have it?} springs to mine a lot. If they pass that basic test - I'll usually invite them and have had a lot of positive feedback from newer players saying how they've learned more in a short two hour party than in the past few levels.

/back on topic...

Spell lists.. again.. a toughie.

At 32... I don't expect my Whm's to have Erase. 40 - I'm starting to notice the pinch now. 50 - if a Whm doesn't have Erase, a Rdm is better and I'll pick it over the Whm every day if they don't have Erase. After level 40 - that's when I expect to see every Whm out there packing that spell.

Blm spells - only ones I'm really annoyed if they don't have are the Ele Enfeebles. Warp 2 is meh and kinda nice, as is Escape - but... I've played many many many levels as a Thief. I'm used to having to get myself in and out of places so I come prepared - almost always (bar that one time I camping Mee Deggi and forgot to bring crystals for synthing on site, so I got a D2 from a friendly Blm there and went back to Jeuno and grabbed my crystals and Cudgel from the MH). Most Blm's tend to keep their nukes bang up to date anyways... it's the other lesser spells that I more notice the abscence of.

And that's my 18886534 pence on the topic.. since I wrote a lot more than I planned to originally. ^^

- Saeriel

[Sotaka]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

You know, I'm probably alone in this belief, but a party leader's job is to keep the party together and running at it's best potential.

Therefore, as a leader, they can kick whoever they want for whatever reason the want. I really don't care, honestly. As long as they get the replacement there and all that, it's fine to me.

[Macht]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

Really, I only kick if the person I invite doesn't meet the following conditions:

Tanks: MUST have adequate equipment, they are taking damage for crying out loud if their equipment is bad it makes it hard to acomplish anything. Even with a poor tank if they have good gear they can at least hold hate better then one with poor gear.

Blink Tanks: Ok gear, can slack but needs Utsusemi to whichever their level allows them to have.

Melee DD: MUST have adequate weapons, poor weapons = poor damage = longer fight = more mana wasted = less exp per hr.

Mage DD: MUST have key damaging spells, doesn't have to be all but needs ones that are effective for damage and MB'ing with.

Healer: MUST have key healing spells, doesn't have to be all but needs his cures as the hugest aspect. Then an either or weighing what other helpful spells he has to the mob we are fighting (Not every mob would need the WHM to have Erase, so if the mob fighting doesn't need us to have that spell then why bother pushing it).

Buffers: Just ok gear can slip a little but as long as it's good enough for them to survive some bad AoEs then it's not a problem.

As far as Skillchaining or not, I've been in some parties were we are racking in 300+ exp a kill and yet don't have a single Skillchain planned for the fight. Then again it was with some regulars I play with and we all know our weapons well enough to know which WS will create a Skillchain so it ends up more or less along the lines of "Oh! He used <WS here> then I should try <WS here> for a Skillchain get some bonus from it or what the <Insert Mage Here> does for a MB."

Basically anyone that uses a WS anyone else that has TP to use just burns it with the other guys to just drop out skillchains. Some mages we've got were really good at it that they'd get the right spell out in time and MB it quite often. Otherwise if they skillchain or not it still can be an ok party, but if you can get the Skillchains out it'll be a great party. EXP just from that small change has altered the exp I get from being 2k exp/hr to 6k exp/hr.

So it makes a difference, but if you are going to kick someone for not skillchaining then you better be sure you'll be able to find another to replace him. Then just wait till the replacement arrives, then replace the bad one. That way at least the exp he got you can was his 'payment' for being a filler.

[samarium]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

Not at all.

A week or so ago we had a pld wearing a BLM tunic. I mean... come ON.

I view Erase as pretty much optional (nice if you have it, but it won't make or break a party), Dispel's a necessity (particularly on Eva+ and Def+ moves... and never costs more than 80k since it can be bought from a vendor), and Refresh is the 'defining' RDM spell.

-sam

[Akashimo]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

For getting kicked, i got kicked from a pty lvling my sam in the dunes, for a stupid reason.... i died saving the pties arse from -ga linkage, told them "hp jueno...." leader kicked me and said "invited my friend".... So after hping and paying for another tele-dem came back to the dunes, his friend, same ls, as well as the majority of the pty...*makes sticky note to avoid*. Parties i left on my own were mainly on smn in the jungles.... basicly, main heal pld with no back up mages.... right.... i 'll get on that.... Gear wise, I've lvled to 36 using my Bastokan Ring and San d'Orian rings just cause they rock stat wise. Earrings, never until 16 for dd unless magic based dd.

Spells, I didn't get erase til around the time i started getting AF. @.@ 3 days of teleing, not fun, espically when the week before was for Dark and Light staff. Around that time, erase was 900k ;-; my poor wallet. So yea, as i lvled my thf i didn't expect to see any whm with it until af lvls. I've constantly made sure i've kept my spells up to par. One thing you'd never like to hear past 58 with a whm in a party after you die, "I don't have R2" luckily the whm was just joking.

As for other bad parties, try having a leader who's a dd that insists on you scing with him? Sure my job is to make like *Shark Bite the board*, but when you give an addittude, espically after making me k.o. myself for food/acc reasons (thf/nin + yellow curry), and the result was about the same with sushi, (thf/nin + squid) and exp was still slow to get, don't let a pty wipe tell you bad mobs to camp or not the best setup.

Tanks, idc how weak your gear maybe, but if it hinders an easy chain 1, oi, recheck yourself and how you do your job. I've had several plds tank in bibiki bay(rarely any nins from 68-70 these days). Several i've seen that have cause major down time to me as a healer and when i play thf. Cause when i see healer's mp below 200, i don't pull unless they tell me to. Overall, 3 good plds i've had that weren't as mp guzzlers. One party traded a pld for nin, and chains flying, and more mp open to haste meleers begging for it. Heh, even i got in on it with my Fire Staff and gotten 33% tp for every 5 or so fights before having to rest.

Pulling, it's dunes 101 when you're camping for linking mobs. It's forgiven if you pull back to get the tank to voke the main mob so the others can be zoned or you're killed by them, assuming mages haven't cure ya @.@.

As for me kicking ppl, i've only done it twice and that's for the reason of not doing the job they were doing properly and not taking the advice or others. Most of the times, ppl i wanna kick were either the leaders or i wasn't the leader at that time and i know the person that needed to be kick couldn't be replaced, i.e. a 20rdm/nin that meleed more than back up healed for a rdm/blm. But i'd never kicked or ask someone to be kicked unless they do something like elvaan whm/war in the jungles w/ only 1 mage, a blm to help healing, or a whm that wear elemental resistance gear over mnd and mp in the 30s. Or better yet a pld in DD eva+ gear >.>;; yea, want dd eva+ go nin, otherwise rethink yourself, eva+ and dd gear over def gear for entire fights.... or a nin tanking in haub, fun, exciement, dead whm using bene to save nukers from tanks can't hold hate of one spell mid fight.

More or less, it's the gear for when, where and how. Knowing to use it correctly with the job and knowing what is what you're lacking to make up for race wise. Ignoring those and insisting on damaging a party, only ppl i let get away with that is when i'm not leader or when no other option on a slow invite/member from "/sea all inv 'job' 'lvl' " days while trying to recover from bad BCNM or dynamis runs @.@ Enjoy, <|Kick attacks|> kthxbai

[Chveya]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

I levelled blackmage through dunes wearing rings, justice badge, friar's rope, wand, and the swimsuit (this was a bit after that event). That was most of my eq in qufim, though I think I added one or two things to that. I used the same eq for the last couple levels of whm in dunes and all of qufim.
I don't recall dying though

If I saw someone come to a party in a swimsuit, even a mage, and even at low levels, I would laugh out loud. I take pride in being able to bring an updated, reasonably equipped character to each party I participate in, and I would be flustered to see someone caring so little about how their gear influences our experience. I understand that body armor shouldn't be that big of a deal as a mage, but there are plenty of affordable equipment options for lvl 25 and under that actually increase your stats. That said, I would not kick that ill-equipped person unless their playing skills were severly lacking.

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: Is it mean to kick someone because...

What about when your other DD absolutly refuses to skill chain? He wont sho his TP or give any signals he just Weaponskill when he gets 100%? Granted I was still able to finish "A" skill chain with what he started but it wasn't the best that could have been done.

I'm guilty of this.
And half of my party disbanded and got pissed at me, because they were his friend.

A DRK @ LV 50 that refused to SC.
A RDM @ LV 50 that didn't know how to MB.

So yeah. I kicked them because the BLM and the MNK were tired of picking up slack. And me being a Thief, was pissed at the fact that the DRK didn't SC at all; Didn't help the tank or the mages.

And I'm very glad I did; got a good SAM and WHM to replace them, and ended up with a great party.

I'm really not biased against these kinds of things; If a person is going to endanger your party for being idiotic or not meeting certain standards, or cause grief for your teammates, then I say kick 'em - not to say that you're being judgemental of that person, but that you're thinking about how their performance will benefit or hurt your party. When you make a party, you're supposed to be working in the interest of your teammates. I think if more people understood this, then gimped gear and bad ettiquite wouldn't be such of a rampant problem on FFXI.

Gimped tanks, unlearned DDs, and Poor mages @ 50...ignorance is no excuse.

And besides. If you don't know the basics by 50 , you should probably head back to Valkurm Dunes.