What happened to the game?

[Firewind]

Re: What happened to the game?

Well to be fair if you're on WHM or RDM and you do anything to risk hate without Stoneskin+Blink+Aquaveil+RR up you deserve a quick painful death even if you're against a mob that a BLM could probably tank like a Collibri

I do agree that everyone should be made to play a healer job at some point. Honestly everyone should be made to do it just to see how annoying the DDs whining for haste are.

As for SAMs whining for haste I tend to have the following rule: "If you can't be bothered to use Hasso then I can't be bothered to use haste". Hasso gives a nice chunk of haste which is why I always consider SAMs low priority in the cycle no matter what they say. DRGs, DRKs, MNKs and G Axe WARs need haste more than them so you can wait until the tank and the high priority haste targets are hasted before I put you into the cycle.

EDIT: And as for Refresh cycles, I usually ask a RDM if they want me using Sublimation (if I'm /SCH) purely to make their lives easier. You're getting similar returns in the long run away especially if you factor in Sanction, Noble's and Light Arts so I honestly don't care how I'm getting my MP back.

[LilithAngel]

Re: What happened to the game?

If a mage or other lightweight job (to which I'm specifically pointing out WHM, BLM, SMN, BRD, possibly RDM and BLU) takes hate, it leads to a quick and painful death.

Dunno why, but the forum ate my post...

Anyways, what it basically said was this:

Of the mage jobs you listed, BLU and RDM are probably the hardiest ones out there, and will often be the last ones standing. RDM just efeebles the damn thing into mewling kitten mode, while BLU simply eats its soul for daring to touch them by way of half-second cating times and rather damaging, um... ahem, "debuffs" (insomuch as you can consider bleeding HP faster than the speed of light while also simultaneoulsly experiencing a negative status effect from the same cast a "debuff").

I'd put BLU squarely alongside all the other melee DDs in terms of survivability when hate shifts. It has about the same HP on average, the same Defense, and the same tricks to help deal with a sudden shift of enmity as the other melee DDs. While others like Samurai shift to Seigan/Third Eye mode, Dark Knight tosses up Dread Spikes and starts Drains and Stuns, and Dragoon simply hits the reset button, Blue Mage just says "No" in the form of Stuns. Lots, and lots, and lots of Stuns. More than every other job in the game. Eight forms of Stuns, at the very least. To say Blue Mage is the King of Stun would be an understatement. They also have pretty hefty defensive spells, foremost to mind are Cocoon and Diamaondhide. A stray hit or two from damn near any EXP mob won't be going through that. Hell, a BLU/NIN combo posting that as well will probably be your last one standing if the tank takes a dive and the rest of the party can't or won't leave for some reason.

[KingOfZeal]

Re: What happened to the game?

Thanks for that, Lilith -- I haven't touched (or plan to touch) BLU, and I also really haven't seen much of it except for high-level meritpos on my BRD, which is why I put both RDM and BLU after 'possibly'. I know RDM is teh uber job right now, being able to solo many things that others can only dream of, but at the time I was also thinking ~level 10. At that point, many jobs are either really weak or really strong -- there's very little in between. I feel my point still stands, though.

[Auro]

Re: What happened to the game?

Until SE mentioned it themselves in a dev interview I read, I never once heard anyone ever say ANYTHING about SC resist rates being high.

If SC damage were unresistable, people would still never use them on mobs like colibri... People wouldn't even notice or care...

[MrMageo]

Re: What happened to the game?

I have to disagree on RDM being the uber job because of solo. The ability to tickle something to death over an hour+ is not uber. Ive done a bunch of solo's, and to be honest, ya you do get a high from it, but I hardly feel uber. I feel like a dick sometimes, mainly because I cause other people to stand and wait and watch me run my figure 8 until the mob dies from boredom. RDM is uber because of its many faces, even though most RDM's don't apply everything, they still can. RDM is uber because it can be a healer,nuker,melee,tank not many other jobs can express
this amount of interchangeability at the users will. BLU has to set spells, SCH needs to rely on Stratagems, a RDM needs to macro gear swaps. Even RDM's the power of the jobs is that no matter what RDM is doing at one particular point, it never loses its ability to do other things. I myself like to melee as a hybrid style RDM, but I never leave home without my enfeebling/nuking gear, because I never know when I will be need to step back and save a party. In events, I never leave home without my tanking set an often go /NIN just incase, because you never know when a tank will afk or dc and a mob pops. That is the uberness of RDM, tha ability to change without having to change, we never lose our spells, and never lose our ability to use them.

RDM is a "uber" job and very popular because people refuse to party without one. I would imagine 75% of the RDM's on every server are just merit whores for other jobs that are actually uber. Like BLM. It is an Uber job to that other 25% because it is able to function in several different roles. It is a very diverse job that fits many many holes. Unfortunatley SE has done nothing to support any of these particular facets of RDM uniqueness. Even as main healers RDM can easily falter just like any other healing job if the load becomes to big, even with convert some parties become unmanagable.

But yes your point does stand, until a certain level in which case all bets are off. RDM and BLU are two of the toughest jobs to bring down, I would argue that they are probably the hardest jobs to take down in the game, (especially if they are both /NIN).

As for SC's they are very good if you match to the mobs weakness, which you should be doing. There is no reason to SC just to SC, if your not opening the weakness of the mob than what is the point, you are going to get resisted just like a mage nuking it. There is a reason WS's and SC's are elemental related, and it is to correlate with mob weakness.

For example if your fighting a Colibri your going to be wanting Induration, Distortion, Dark all these contain Ice colibri's weakness. By using the weakness even with there +MDB you are still going to be landing a hard SC, and If a nuker is around your erasing resist possibilities to them with Blizzard X, Freeze X. It makes no sense to use your Strongest weaponskills all the time if your trying to make a SC sometimes you have to gimp your own damage for the betterment of the party. Which I guess takes us back to where I started the post. Is gimping your own damage really that big of a deal if it means you will get more/safer exp.

This is why I like to party with non american players, the epeen syndrome seems to be NA EU only. The Japanese players strive for efficiency and if that means player X has to gimp himself so player Y can do even more damage then they do. This is what I feel sets apart NA/EU from JP, its not the gear its not the levels its not the jobs, its the act of getting into game machanics and knowing exxactly what to do on each mob to make the party last forever. That is why I think they are better, that and they don't afk every 5 minutes for stupid things like I need to paint my toenails.

[711rocks]

Re: What happened to the game?

^ yeah but jp players are the only ones who pull the
"(Time for work) (Thank you) (See you again)" and just randomly leave parties with no warning or replacement

[Tickmeoff]

Re: What happened to the game?

^ yeah but jp players are the only ones who pull the
"(Time for work) (Thank you) (See you again)" and just randomly leave parties with no warning or replacement

I actually pretend to be JP most of the time just so I can do this.

I know I'm a douche, but I would actually feel guilty just faking a disconnect.

[Auro]

Re: What happened to the game?

I have to disagree on RDM being the uber job because of solo. The ability to tickle something to death over an hour+ is not uber. . . I cause other people to stand and wait and watch me run my figure 8 until the mob dies from boredom.

EDIT: Oops, forgot my first point. Which was that Mr M is funny xD But also that the ability to defeat very difficult enemies IS uber, regardless of how long it takes.


About the JP players thing... I think the most interesting things I've ever read about FFXI: JPButton Talking Points - 和英討è°

JP players don't get replacements because to them, it's inconsiderate to assume that everyone else is able to/wants to stay for long enough to make the replacements trip worthwhile. It's rude to them.

Don't tell me you've never been in a party for a long ass time, are starting to hope that it will end soon, and some DD is like "My replacement's here". Especially for tanks and healers who can't just open up the /sea inv list and pick any random job to replace them, it can be really annoying.

Anyway the JP/NA relations interviews are super eye-opening, particularly just how much resentment, prejudice and racism pervades the JP community in FFXI. Japan apparently makes no effort to teach children about cultural differences and tolerance. I guess being so isolated, they don't really need to. Super interesting.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What happened to the game?

Dunno why, but the forum ate my post...

I was hungry! My cookies ran out!

^ yeah but jp players are the only ones who pull the
"(Time for work) (Thank you) (See you again)" and just randomly leave parties with no warning or replacement

JP's don't believe in replacements, some do it now simply because of partying with NA's so often. I talked to my JP friend about this and its simply "when its time to go, it is time to go" (his exact words). JP's understand and respect that where as NA/EU players with whine, piss, and moan to get you to stay. I take a more JPish stance when I party, I will look for a replacement if I know I need to leave in 30 mins but if I can't find one, oh well I'm gone and don't bother trying to make me feel bad. Also if I need to leave NOW (i.e. once my grandson's father neglected to pick him up after school), I say that I'm sorry somethings come up and I have to go...POOF! I'm frankly tired of the NA/EU attitude of making people feel guilty for not being able to party long, leaving when they need to, etc. I've gotten some very nasty /t's from them but I have NEVER had this issue with a JP party.

[BurningPanther]

Re: What happened to the game?

I believe in replacements, I just don't believe there is any burden the leaving individual to find a replacement, or stay until one is found.

If I gotta go, then that's it. My wife's water broke/fire in the trashcan/emergency at work/gotta pick my nose/whatever. That fact won't change if I do a quick search and don't see any potential replacements available, and I certainly won't stay for your sake until someone pops up. It's you who wants to continue, not me. Therefore, I might do a quick search as a courtesy, but in the end, the replacement is your problem.

[MeSleepNow]

Re: What happened to the game?

Lets love the word, but remember pull out because I don't want kids.

[Celeal]

Re: What happened to the game?

As for Skill-chain at higher level parties, although it is rare, the trend is self SC ... most common ones are SAM (very popular job at this moment), but jobs like BLU or PUP can easily self SC too. No plan, no call before SC... so lack of MB... or today's popular exp. party setup does not factor in MP usage for Magic Burst to begin with.

[711rocks]

Re: What happened to the game?

that bit about their replacement habits is fine
i agree on all points
but how hard is it to say time remaining: 20 minutes instead of just randomly leaving

[Ameroth]

Re: What happened to the game?

but how hard is it to say time remaining: 20 minutes instead of just randomly leaving

It's not. In fact, that's how I leave all my parties. A 20 minute heads up and then the burden of replacement is on the leader. After my predefined 20 mins is up, I switch to my warp cudgel.

[Auro]

Re: What happened to the game?

I believe in replacements, I just don't believe there is any burden the leaving individual to find a replacement, or stay until one is found.

If I gotta go, then that's it. My wife's water broke/fire in the trashcan/emergency at work/gotta pick my nose/whatever. That fact won't change if I do a quick search and don't see any potential replacements available, and I certainly won't stay for your sake until someone pops up. It's you who wants to continue, not me. Therefore, I might do a quick search as a courtesy, but in the end, the replacement is your problem.

Hmm. At risk of sounding Japanese, that's a pretty selfish attitude.

If you have all these possible interferences, then don't party.

You really have no qualms with wasting 5 other people's time so you can pick your nose? How do you know they don't have a huge booger and have been waiting for hours to pick it so they don't waste your time?

Clarifying: If you've given 20 mins notice, or have a dire emergency and at least tried /sea all inv, then yeah, replacements are the pt leaders problem. If you just decided you're done and leave, that's not cool.