Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

[LilithAngel]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Orly? Well, I suppose the next time I take my Paladin out for a party, I could give it a try. I put together a semi-DD build for it already (you can't tell me you didn't see that coming), and was just looking at my options. I need to find a good spot to level Great Sword (it's at 105 currently).

I'm just really getting into this whole tanking thing, and I've had success so far doing what was apparently the "turtle style" of tanking. My main question would be would mixing it up at this point (60) be worth it to change my style of tanking, or am I letting the career DD in me try to turn Paladin into something it may not be? This is the main reason I'm still iffy on Hauby.

[Celeal]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Orly? Well, I suppose the next time I take my Paladin out for a party, I could give it a try. I put together a semi-DD build for it already (you can't tell me you didn't see that coming), and was just looking at my options. I need to find a good spot to level Great Sword (it's at 105 currently).

I'm just really getting into this whole tanking thing, and I've had success so far doing what was apparently the "turtle style" of tanking. My main question would be would mixing it up at this point (60) be worth it to change my style of tanking, or am I letting the career DD in me try to turn Paladin into something it may not be? This is the main reason I'm still iffy on Hauby.

Are you using sushi + Hauby + sword and shield while tanking as PLD/WAR at your level range? Or are you trying to hybrid tank in a party that works better with defensive style tanking?

At first I had my doubt with the idea of Hybrid-DD PLD style of tanking, but I am tanking full time in exp/merit party with Hybrid style since level 65. (I start with tanking with S.H from level 65+, and switch to Hauby at 70+)

Do not use Great Sword for Hybrid tanking, because the Shield is the major part of damage reduction when you are tanking with DD/mix gear and using DD food. Hybrid PLD is not about being a true DD; it is about using the sword as an additional source of hate, and shorten the duration of each battle.

The duration of each battle is the key of hybrid tanking: Faster the mob dies, potentially less damage done to the party. It is because a mob can only output X amount of damage in a given amount of time. If the party with Hybrid PLD tank can kill the mob within the *time-limit*, the damage taken from the Hybrid PLD (including the party) can be less than or equal to a Turtle PLD tank. The end result of Hybrid PLD is: The faster the mob dies, the rate of exp. gain is potentially higher.

However, if you are taking too much damage over time, or you party is not able to kill the mob within the *time-limit*, it is time to fall back to defensive style tanking in that situation.

[Armando]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

You should always kill in DD gear. Always. Worst case scenario is your party overhunts, you realize you're taking damage at too fast a rate for the healers to keep up with, and you still keep the DD gear but eat Defense food. In any other situation you just use sushi.

Great Sword is useless because we can put out the same damage with a sword and still have a shield on. Even if Great Sword did do better damage, you'd be taking so much damage without a shield that the party wouldn't be able to keep up and you'd have to eat Defense food to compensate, so you'd be doing more damage with a sword and shield eating sushi anyways.

This has come up in various threads already. Take a look at these:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pal...-pld-tank.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pal...rants-out.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pal...8-midgame.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pal...ogether-2.html

In addition, you can use my equipment guide as a reference, since it goes up to Lv.60: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pal...ent-guide.html

[LilithAngel]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Thanks.

I wasn't planning on using GSWD to tank with (that'd be dumb), but just for the fact that I have a job that's up there that can actually use them. More of a novelty thing. Sword n' Board all the way.

Yeah, I haven't used food at all since 55. Of course, I've also had nothing but colibri camps since 55 as well, but I anticipated that, so I worked around it. As I get past 60 and move onto other camps, I'll give other equipment options a try.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

A bit of an update, but after reading all those threads, it wasn't until I had gotten through the majority of them that I could make any sort of informed decision about whether I wanted to go DD, Hybrid, or Turtle Paladin. Unfortunately, every post had a point, and to a degree (a rather significant degree), were all right. I want to give DD/Hybrid a try, but I also an still sketchy on whether or not it'd be beneficial at 60.

The equip guide was nice, but I've already gotten to the end point of it. Amusingly enough, the last major purchases I've gone through (Gluttony Sword [oh noes!] and Haubergeon) were the only ones I've made in the past year or so that were any major chunk of change; leveling Dragoon, Blue Mage, Corsair, and Dancer gave me plenty of opportunity to use equipment I already own, and Paladin can make use of it. The sword and body piece were just because it's something unique I've had to deal with as a Paladin; while I've had to break into the world of Daggers with Dancer, it's nothing on the level of what using the larger Broadswords and heavy DD gear that I've experienced with Paladin. I wish I could use some of those swords on my Blue Mage, and some of those armors on my Dragoon.

And yes, Armando, I'll prolly continue using Glut for a bit. I picked up a Bastard Sword to offhand when I /NIN in Campaign, but I've been noticing a marked increase in DoT when I S'n'B with it, and that's just eyeballing it (as a career DD that's been DDing for the past 5-6 years and having tested many equip setups for Dragoon and Blue Mage, "eyeballing it" comes damn easy, and is fairly accurate by this point). I'll see what I can do with it when I put the final touches on my DD/Hybrid set and take it for a test run. If I don't like the results, Kujata's AH is stable enough that I don't lose too much for "test drives."

Since I play during Japanese prime, it'll be interesting to try to do this; many Japanese are rather conservative when partying, even in this day and age.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

One of the problem I've encountered while trying hybrid PLD was that at times I was hit so hard, the mages all started cure dumping. That usually killed the exp chain. Following that, the healer would get worried, and want to keep my HP topped off, making tanking difficult, not to mention wasting MP.

Personally, I had a very uneven history with hybrid tanking; sometimes worked nicely, but usually did not. I now think it's a bit more involved than just picking the right target (level) and the right mindset and gears on the part of the PLD. It takes team effort to make it work, and generally parties are more used to working with a turtle PLD instead of a hybrid or DD one.

Party's MP flow is the key, I think. There's no point in attempting to do more damage if it ends up draining the MP and killing chains--even if that's not the fault of the PLD.

Start at turtle, and see how well the party chains. If moving to hybrid doesn't lower the chain number (or if it improves it), then it's good. Half an hour later, when the food wears off, then can make a decision to go full DD, stay at hybrid, or back to full turtle.

* * *

Though I've always brought the food and gears for it, I've never felt comfortable enough to go full DD on PLD. I'd always start at turtle, get to some degree of hybrid, then usually go back to nearly full turtle. Only once in a while did I stay in hybrid--never once made it to full DD gear/food.

Now that my PLD is 70 and I've added Joyeuse to my arsenal, things may be different. I'll find out when I find the time to go back leveling it. x_x;

[Armando]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Ugh. With all due respect, Lilith...Please. Don't. Eyeball. ; ; It never works. I've done a LOT of tests (shielding tests, counter rate tests, evasion tests, etc.) where I *think* the numbers are going one way, and then I count the results and do the math and they ended up being something totally different. I've been in plenty of parties where I thought my hit rate was really high, but it was really something like 70%. Human beings just aren't cut out for that, and if you're already biased in favor of Gluttony Sword that just makes any observations you make in the future a million times more flawed. I never trust ANYONE's observations, not even my own.

Gluttony is definitely an inferior weapon for damage. It's inferior even to NQ T.M. Espadon, and many times more so than T.M. Espadon +2 (which pretty much out-DPS's any weapon between 52 and 60, and is even better than the Lv.60 NQ Bastard Sword.) The Gluttony Sword's selling point is its damage reduction (+7 VIT), not its damage. But it's terribly weak at damage reduction so it's really obsolete even before you can use it.

You say you're unsure if it's worth doing the DD thing at 60. For the sake of reference, it was at 60 that I finally got my DD gear together, and I was pretty successful. The only time I really had to hold back was against Erucas, because they can take off 90%-100% of your HP in a single, early, unlucky Incinerate (yet people love them even though they'll have to cure bomb you every single goddamned fight) and we were overhunting them to boot.

Because you're still on the fence about this issue, I must emphasize that you need to give this a fair chance. And I say that because the first time you drop your Defense food in favor of Sushi, you'll get hit noticeably harder, and the numbers will alarm you. They sure scared me. But a couple of fights in I realized that despite the high damage numbers we were doing ok, and hate holding had become so easy it was almost unfair. And if you fail at it in one party, try again in another. The first party might not have been able to support you, but that doesn't mean many other parties can't.

One more thing. Like I said, the difference between a turtle tank and a DD PLD essentially comes down to Defense food VS Sushi. If your party can't handle sushi, then go back to defense food. But keep the DD gear. Haubergeon offers more than Gallant Surcoat ever will in an EXP party. +5% hit rate from double Woodsman Rings is worth more than anything +6 VIT can give you in the ring slots (although a Jelly Ring is a damned fine choice in the ring slot as well, especially when you're not all that comfortable with this yet, get one if you can.) High Breath Mantle offers nothing defensively so you don't lose anything but Enmity when using Amemet Mantle (and if you can eat sushi, enmity is the least of your worries.) Likewise, the ear slots offer very little, and you should be slapped for wearing anything other than Life Belt/Potent Belt at this point.

I follow an approach similar to Itazura's, except I don't go full turtle and then make the switch. Instead, I go one or two fights without food and see how the party does. If they hold up ok then I pop the sushi. If they're struggling, then I pop the defense food. In general, if your party has a RDM and a backup healer, that's all you need to stay alive. RDM + WHM is fantastic (Refresh AND double Flashing?!) RDM healing on its own probably won't fare so well. Also, if you have a BRD, you'll be capable of some truly impressive numbers. I had Bibiki parties where I hit the hit rate cap when partying with a BRD, I was hitting pretty hard and my Vorpals were doing 200-400 damage. Works great.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Just got out of a party. kinda sleepy so I'mma just give the quick and dirty.

Ru'Aun Gardens.
Flamingo.

drk/war
rng/war
thf/nin
pld/war (me, dur)
rdm/whm
sch/rdm

All Japanese except me, of course, drk was the leader, spoke rather fluent English, so that made things easier. Since ToAU was full, we hit up sky.

Glut/Bastard
Iron Ram
Bibiki shell
Valk/AF
Chiv/Parade
Drone+Insomnia
Haub/AF
Sipahi/AF
Rajas+Uthalam
Knightly
Potent
Royal Kight's Breeches/AF
AF boots (those things are the pwnface)

Sole Sushi/Fish Miths

Dark Staff and Vermy on rest for mp. Now, needless to say, having both sets is great and all, but the thing I noticed on both sets, and yes, I eyeballed it, because it takes all of about 2 seconds to go back and look, was that I hit for 0 about 8 out of every 10 hits that actually connected. On both Turtle and DD modes, both miths and sushi. TP gain didn't go up enough to matter, Damage and hit rates didn't go up enough to mater, don't give me this "don't eyeball" crap, I can see perfectly fine when I went back and looked at the chat logs that for this particular party, my best bet was to go Turtle.

Now, that being said, I'm certainly not going to base the concept off of one party, but so far, I'm not yet convinced one way or another. The damage wasn't what presented a problem, it was the party. This party just wasn't set up to handle a DD-esque Paladin this time around, but perhaps I'll get another shot tomorrow. Unfortunately, without any Corsair or Bard support, we weren't doing all that well (only about 6-7k/hr at best). I ended up about 1.1k short of my tnl.... That's a Campaign fight or two for me.

I've got my Amemet +1 on me ready to go; just gotta ding those levels. I'm wanting this to work, I really do, mainly cuz I want the Hauby to justify its place in my inventory. I'll also try out other swords, but I'll still hold onto Glut; as far as I'm concerned, it's a key piece of a turtle build, and a good solid 22+ VIT to go with my def does show a extremely noticeable improvement still at this level. I haven't hit that point (or even slope) of diminished returns yet, so no point in knocking it just yet.

Armando, I respect your opinion (hell, I asked for it. I don't ask for the opinion of people I don't respect). I know you're the type of guy that needs the hard numbers as proof of one thing or another. I'm not. I can just look and see what I'm needing to see and I'll pretty much be right. I've parsed quite a few fights myself, and wasn't the least bit surprised to know that my "eyeballing" was damn near accurate to what the parses were telling me.

What I saw tonight was rather odd in comparison to what you and Itazura were telling me; swinging for 0 or missing often, either build, and the times I did hit for damage, it was fluctuating between 5-17/20. On both full turtle, and DD. That tells me one thing: we were overcamping. The fights took way too long, and I was taking too much damage, even in turtle build. I don't need a parse to tell me that.

[Celeal]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Just got out of a party. kinda sleepy so I'mma just give the quick and dirty.

Ru'Aun Gardens.
Flamingo.

drk/war
rng/war
thf/nin
pld/war (me, dur)
rdm/whm
sch/rdm

All Japanese except me, of course, drk was the leader, spoke rather fluent English, so that made things easier. Since ToAU was full, we hit up sky.

Glut/Bastard
Iron Ram
Bibiki shell
Valk/AF
Chiv/Parade
Drone+Insomnia
Haub/AF
Sipahi/AF
Rajas+Uthalam
Knightly
Potent
Royal Kight's Breeches/AF
AF boots (those things are the pwnface)

Sole Sushi/Fish Miths

Dark Staff and Vermy on rest for mp. Now, needless to say, having both sets is great and all, but the thing I noticed on both sets, and yes, I eyeballed it, because it takes all of about 2 seconds to go back and look, was that I hit for 0 about 8 out of every 10 hits that actually connected. On both Turtle and DD modes, both miths and sushi. TP gain didn't go up enough to matter, Damage and hit rates didn't go up enough to mater, don't give me this "don't eyeball" crap, I can see perfectly fine when I went back and looked at the chat logs that for this particular party, my best bet was to go Turtle.

Now, that being said, I'm certainly not going to base the concept off of one party, but so far, I'm not yet convinced one way or another. The damage wasn't what presented a problem, it was the party. This party just wasn't set up to handle a DD-esque Paladin this time around, but perhaps I'll get another shot tomorrow. Unfortunately, without any Corsair or Bard support, we weren't doing all that well (only about 6-7k/hr at best). I ended up about 1.1k short of my tnl.... That's a Campaign fight or two for me.

I've got my Amemet +1 on me ready to go; just gotta ding those levels. I'm wanting this to work, I really do, mainly cuz I want the Hauby to justify its place in my inventory. I'll also try out other swords, but I'll still hold onto Glut; as far as I'm concerned, it's a key piece of a turtle build, and a good solid 22+ VIT to go with my def does show a extremely noticeable improvement still at this level. I haven't hit that point (or even slope) of diminished returns yet, so no point in knocking it just yet.

Armando, I respect your opinion (hell, I asked for it. I don't ask for the opinion of people I don't respect). I know you're the type of guy that needs the hard numbers as proof of one thing or another. I'm not. I can just look and see what I'm needing to see and I'll pretty much be right. I've parsed quite a few fights myself, and wasn't the least bit surprised to know that my "eyeballing" was damn near accurate to what the parses were telling me.

What I saw tonight was rather odd in comparison to what you and Itazura were telling me; swinging for 0 or missing often, either build, and the times I did hit for damage, it was fluctuating between 5-17/20. On both full turtle, and DD. That tells me one thing: we were overcamping. The fights took way too long, and I was taking too much damage, even in turtle build. I don't need a parse to tell me that.

IMHO, that camp + party setup + gear does not work with sushi: You need to find the balance. I am surprise that no one got KO-ed If I am tanking (as Hybrid-DD) with your gear in that situation, I would use attack food (like meat, coeurl sub, or rice drumpling), turn on/off Defender accordingly. Keep AF head, AF gloves, AF pants and AF feet full time, squeeze in the Hauby and acc+ gear in the rest of the slot, in a logical manner. If your HP% is not high enough to activate the latent effect of Parade Gorget for long time, make macro to swap in/out acc+ neck gear.

Note:
As I mentioned in the previous post, the duration of each battle is the key of Hybrid PLD tank. Since your camp is outside of ToAU, your party can setup Sidewinder/Slut Shot -> Guillotine (Fragmentation) + MB from RDM + SCH [Wind or Thunder], and Sidewinder/Slut Shot -> Dancing Edge (Distortion) + MB from RDM + SCH [Ice or Water]. Guillotine -> Sidewinder/Slut Shot (Induration - Ice) works too if switching element of MB is too confusing.

If the party is not pushing the limit of damage output, there is no reason for using Hybrid PLD tank. (Increase the hate threshold in the expensive of damage taken, for nothing... which is not good)

Added:
Glut Sword is fine for pure defensive tanking, or if you want to trade off a bit of damage output with VIT+7 at your level range.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Yeah, I ended up deciding to stay Turtle in that party after a while. And yeah, someone did die, twice (I'll give you three guesses as to who it was, but I'll give you a hint: Soul Eater is pretty annoying...). I don't bother trying to save Darwin Award winners like that, but the Ranger at least waited until the mob was 50% before he let off his Sidewinders. If he somehow managed to get hate after that, then yar, I tossed him the occasional Cover (he didn't need it but mebbie twice). The Thief at least knew what he was doing, too. He put that Assassin trait to good use.

Oh well, I'll try again after work today. Hopefully I'll have the energy to do so after a long ass 12 hour shift of launching jets. In the snow.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

I don't agree (yet) with Armando's "always tank in DD gear" statement, but he's definitely right about eyeballing.

Human beings have tendency to see what they want to find instead of what is there; the harder they stare, the less connection the observations have to the reality of the data.

[Mog]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Puppetmaster is a good choice for about all jobs. /nod