Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

[Celeal]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

As for melee's subjobs, /war or /nin should cover most exp. parties in various level ranges. Then another common or useful sub is /THF, and then /sam (main job post level 50~60+, especially for 2-hander user).

Added: There is a lot of potential for /DNC too.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Yes, but do you gain TP as fast as a Soboro SAM, even with Joyeuse?

Not really a fair comparison you're going for there. If you're trying to say my damage is somehow less relevant due to my TP gain, that's a bit unfair since I do have to stop to buff. But if we're talking about not buffing at all, sure, not too hard to keep up on TP at all.

You're also forgetting SAM has lower rating in Archery than COR does in Marksmanship, which hurts damage potential for the SAM somewhat. Accuracy is not as hard to overcome due to all the ranged accuracy gear out there, but is SAM/RNG going to miss more Sidewinders? Yep.

I'm not downplaying the raw damage potential of COR, but it isn't and never has been a primary damage dealing job, due to the role that's typically shoved onto it.

Not that having the sub available if you need it is a bad thing, but the point of this thread is prioritization of which subjobs to level, and of the jobs listed, /RNG only benefits COR, and not nearly to the degree of other available options.

The thread was about what subs are good for which job and why, its really Murphie's call in how to prioritize them. I'd say if he has the gil to spare now, level RNG sub just to get it done. People tend to make it out to be more expensive than it actually is. If you have 3-400k to spare, easy enough to get out of the way and, better, if you just finish it to 40 you have options for using it to help out in CoPs or BCNMs at those levels.

Its also just a really fun job to play. People need to get over the pricetags in this game and allow themselves to have some fun. People are far too conservative with thier gil in FFXI.

Also, Callisto is right, /WAR is nice for COR, but its really an merit only sub and more specifically useful if you have Martial Gun and Detonator unlocked. /SAM is a pretty fun sub for PvP and campaign. That said, as of now, in the 30+ world, I regard /RNG and /DNC its best EXP subs.

[Mhurron]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Not really a fair comparison you're going for there. If you're trying to say my damage is somehow less relevant due to my TP gain, that's a bit unfair since I do have to stop to buff.

I think you'll find this is exactly what he was getting at. Statement was made about real party mechanics, not e-peen stroking. A COR can not match the damage output of a SAM in a normal party because that is not what their primary role is. They have to stop and do their party responsibilities where as a SAM's existence in the party is to do damage.

In a skillup party I (RDM Taru wearing Wise gear) let out a weapon skill that had higher damage then a WAR and SAM pulled off moments before.

Is this any indication that I can fill a premier DD role in a party? No, it's a funny bit of information but nothing more. That you may weaponskill for weaponskill outdamage a job that is there just to do damage is irrelevant since they're doing, especially SAM, more of those weapon skills.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

I think you'll find this is exactly what he was getting at. Statement was made about real party mechanics, not e-peen stroking. A COR can not match the damage output of a SAM in a normal party because that is not what their primary role is. They have to stop and do their party responsibilities where as a SAM's existence in the party is to do damage.

If my primary role is buffing, I'm only doing that once or twice a fight, COR has a minute long shared recast timer on thier buffs. The whole point of the job - not terribly unlike DNC - is to bring support and damage to the party. CORs that don't bring damage waste a slot in PT and should have a BRD/WHM taking thier place. There is the exception of melee x4 setups - That's a case where my damage would be irrelevant and then I should focus on pure support or pulling because the damage being brought by the melees is more than sufficient.

And since the SAM/RNG thing wooshed on you, I'll point out SAM can bring other duties to PT, like pulling. Sometimes, it is asked of them and many come prepared for the role. You'll find that Seigan is a rather useful tool to this end. SAM also tanks in some setups pretty well. Its not as one-dimensional as you seem to think, its what the player makes of it.

[Icemage]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Not really a fair comparison you're going for there. If you're trying to say my damage is somehow less relevant due to my TP gain, that's a bit unfair since I do have to stop to buff. But if we're talking about not buffing at all, sure, not too hard to keep up on TP at all.

You're also forgetting SAM has lower rating in Archery than COR does in Marksmanship, which hurts damage potential for the SAM somewhat. Accuracy is not as hard to overcome due to all the ranged accuracy gear out there, but is SAM/RNG going to miss more Sidewinders? Yep.

I think it's an entirely fair comparison to make.

Soboro-equipped SAM/RNG do a really, really good job at making it to the top of a damage parse in a party. Sure, they'll miss the occasional Sidewinder, but they not only get more time to melee, but they also get Store TP, Hasso, Zanshin, and Meditate to improve their weaponskill frequency - all of that without impacting what the party is expecting them to do.

Sure, a Corsair will do a solid amount of damage with a decent gun and some steel bullets plus a Ranger sub, but they're going to be a lot less effective and flexible for a typical party than a Corsair that's doing the support role/pulling role + damage.

The thread was about what subs are good for which job and why, its really Murphie's call in how to prioritize them. I'd say if he has the gil to spare now, level RNG sub just to get it done. People tend to make it out to be more expensive than it actually is. If you have 3-400k to spare, easy enough to get out of the way and, better, if you just finish it to 40 you have options for using it to help out in CoPs or BCNMs at those levels.

If you can tell me that getting /RNG is a more effective use of time than levelling /NIN to 37, or even /DNC to 37, for the list of primary jobs he posted, then I don't think this conversation is going anywhere because we aren't even reading the same book, let alone on the same page.

Its also just a really fun job to play. People need to get over the pricetags in this game and allow themselves to have some fun. People are far too conservative with thier gil in FFXI.

Also, Callisto is right, /WAR is nice for COR, but its really an merit only sub and more specifically useful if you have Martial Gun and Detonator unlocked. /SAM is a pretty fun sub for PvP and campaign. That said, as of now, in the 30+ world, I regard /RNG and /DNC its best EXP subs.

What is /RNG going to do for the rest of the jobs on his list? I'd have serious issues with a Paladin who shows up to a party as PLD/RNG... at any level.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

To be fair, I already have NIN at 37. And I'm not looking for speed. So I don't mind if it takes a couple of extra weeks to level a lesser used sub. I'd rather get all of my options out of the way now than have to go back later and take yet another job up through the 20s and 30s.

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

I'd rather get all of my options out of the way now than have to go back later and take yet another job up through the 20s and 30s.

Definitely the way to go. When I returned I sold all my THF gear and retired it until I got WAR and NIN to 37. Having to worry about leveling a SJ is frustrating and not having to worry about it is a luxury.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

What is /RNG going to do for the rest of the jobs on his list? I'd have serious issues with a Paladin who shows up to a party as PLD/RNG... at any level.

Maybe he was largely referring to Accuracy Bonus?

Though, to be fair, I don't think he was expecting people to go through every combination of jobs Murphie listed and subs he listed. At best, this qualifies as a nitpick.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Icemage:

I think you're on a different page, you just said something before that could easily be taken as "COR can't DD good" That's the page I was on. This statement:

Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

Very easy to take the wrong way.

If I were to go on the RDM forum and say "Skip WHM" I'm certain you would have something to say about it. I mean, hey, a RDM can get invites and still cures, they're not always needed to play healer. And its true, people would still invite them, but would they respect them? I know a RDM that tells people they can skip WHM and sub /BLM straight to 75. As a former RDM, I sure as hell won't agree with that. He can think again if he thinks I'll camp Joyeuse for his sorry butt, dragging his PTs down like he does with no /WHM at 70+

Additionally, how does /RNG affect a COR's ability to support in any way? Its never really affected mine, though I have had my fair share of CORs that lose track of buff cycles, but then, its practically accepted these days because BRDs do it, too. I don't do it, I'm usually trying to reroll before the timer is back up.

Maybe its just because I was a 75 BRD and RNG first, I know where to play it safe and where to play fast and loose. I keep the buffs up and the WS coming with a Quick Draw each minute. I've never been a liability to my PTs.

Murphie doesn't strike me as a "zerg" player and him being a RDM, I think him having /NIN ready was a given. It was in his avatar months ago, little Taru casting Utsusemi. I may not get along with Murphie all the time, doesn't mean I don't keep tabs on his progress. I know he's the type that would take up subs before persuing something seriously.

Bardairs

I lol'd

[Mhurron]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

If my primary role is buffing, I'm only doing that once or twice a fight, COR has a minute long shared recast timer on thier buffs. The whole point of the job - not terribly unlike DNC - is to bring support and damage to the party. CORs that don't bring damage waste a slot in PT and should have a BRD/WHM taking thier place.

I never said that COR didn't do any damage, and obviously if they weren't they are quite useless. However there is a significant difference between doing no damage, and being the top damage dealer in a party. By nature of the job COR will not be at the top of normal parties. They have to stop every once and a while and do something that is not directly damaging the mob.

With a SAM and a COR doing nothing but swinging away at a mob, the SAM is going to do more damage by getting TP quicker and more weapon skills. The COR's damage is further reduced in the long run by stopping to cast buffs. If the COR is also pulling and goes to pull the next mob while the last bit of life is handled by others, again, in the long run this cuts into the amount of damage COR output. A weapon skill for weapon skill comparison is completely meaningless therefore comparing a SAM and COR's damage over the course of a party is completely fair.

And since the SAM/RNG thing wooshed on you, I'll point out SAM can bring other duties to PT, like pulling. Sometimes, it is asked of them and many come prepared for the role.

Simply because I chose not to mention it does not mean it 'wooshed' me. And guess what, if the SAM is disengaging before the mob is dead to go grab the next one, that is also cutting into his total damage output in exactly the same way a COR taking out time to buff cuts into theirs.

And just to be clear about this, no one said COR's damage was negligible except you when you took the suggestion that you might not be the best DD personally. They said no one invites COR primarily for DD, which in normal parties is completely true.

[Murphie]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

If anything, I'm too far on the slow and methodical side of things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

If anything, I'm too far on the slow and methodical side of things.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Murphie]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

True, true. It only sucks when you see everyone else flying ahead of you and getting all the sweet gears. And then you realize that hey, you don't have the inventory space for those sweet gears anyway.

Or at least that's what you tell yourself.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Heh, well, if it makes you feel any better (and I know it will), I haven't gotten any new piece of decent-to-good gear in the past year.

Ok, so the Haubergeon I bought last night for my Paladin doesn't count, cuz I'm still iffy on it (I may just sell it back; my friend Einhard [you should know him BBQ] was over at my place and convinced me to buy it. I got it for 100k cheaper on Kujata than he sees it on Midgar. Just another reason Midgar sux).

But other than that, I think the last piece of good gear I got was Barbarossa's Moufles. That was when Sevv first hopped over to Kujata. That was a while ago...

[Armando]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

You really don't want to get rid of that Haubergeon. It's better than Gallant Surcoat in almost every situation that doesn't involve soloing.