Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

[Murphie]

I couldn't think of exactly where to put this thread, but then I figured "Hey, I'm a returning player of sorts!" so I decided to put it here. Feel free to move it tho.

I haven't decided what job I'd like to take to 75 next (honestly, I'd like to take a couple, but I know I need to focus on 1-2 to keep the task reasonable). In the meantime, I'm trying to sort potential future subs out.

So I already have DRK WAR NIN BLM and WHM at SJ level and I in the process of leveling THF and RNG to 37. What other subs do I need to think about?

MNK - Do I have any reason to level this if I'm not going to level WAR past 40? Would I even need it then?

SCH - What jobs sub this?

DNC - Ditto.

SAM - Is this still a desirable sub for some jobs?

I haven't mentioned PLD DRG BLU COR or BRD because those are the jobs I'm deciding on for the push to 75. If I go with one or more of them are there subjobs I should consider leveling outside of the ones I'm already working on?

I also haven't mentioned PUP or BST. I know BST is like, the best soloing SJ ever, but I'm not sure that leveling BST to 75 right now just to make soloing easier is what I want to do. One day perhaps.

So, thoughts, comments, insults? Thanks in advance.

[Kuro]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

DNc makes a much better solo job than bst (unless you are DNC) for any melee job.

SAM is still the OMGWTFBBQ awesome melee subjob for DRK and such.

SCH is generally a good sub for any of the mages, PLD are best off sticking to /WAR.

MNK is a useless sub as allways, apart from perhaps some strange endgame stuff that requires insane amounts of HP on a PLD.

Why would you need 75 bst for soloing? bst/dnc 37 is for soloing, perhaps whm or nin for some camps.

For COR you'll need that RNG sub (come near me or Kitten with a mage sub and you may loose parts of your body - yes i use it in dynamis but thats only because im broke and can't buy bullets) BLU can use a couple subs but you should be ok, DRG and PLD you're ok with WAR but your DRG will need to use /WHM sometimes and to solo /WHM, you're going to want /sam for DRG in the 60's. Remember to make a GOOD DRG you need to spent a god damned fortune! If you're nkown to have awesome egar you have better chances for invites, but still don't count on it.

PUP is sort of a bad soloing sub now. DNC has kind of killed all other subjobs for melee jobs and the cost to make your automation good is high (plus you need to get all the frames so thats more leveling)

[LilithAngel]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Funny you should mention those jobs, as I have extensive experience in them from working with them so much. Let's go down the list...

Dragoon: Hooo boy, where to begin. The subs you're gonna want for this one extend almost across the board, with the exception of the other pet jobs, and Monk. Monk just doesn't give Dragoon anything that another couldn't offer and then some. Pet jobs, by nature, not an option (the whole one pet at a time thing). That being said, here are your options if you wanna keep the leveling of subs to a minimum.

-Warrior: good, solid, all-around melee sub. It's got your DD options, some "oh snap, I need to live and Super Jump ain't up" options, and even a little boost to the pals option (Warcry). Good. Solid. Staple.

-White Mage: good, solid, all-around mage sub. It's got your protections, your status cures, and even makes your Wyvern super party friendly. You can help with status cures with little loss in DD potential, hate management isn't so much of a concern with hate-shedding tools, and having the most MP-efficient cures in the game is always a bonus, regardless of the trigger conditions. Good. Solid. Staple.

Now, with that being said as well, there are variances you can do for Dragoon that'll shift your focus one way or another (or even enhance w/e your focus already is). You can swap out Warrior for Thief, Samurai, Dark Knight, or Blue Mage for additional DD prowess, or Samurai, Ninja, Blue Mage, or Paladin for a more defensive-minded DD (notice the usage some of the same jobs there). On the mage side, Black Mage, Red Mage, Blue Mage, and Bard can all offer some things White Mage doesn't, while still keeping the flavor of Dragoon/Mage intact. You could even go Dragoon/Enhancer with subs such as Bard, Ninja, Scholar, Dancer, Corsair, and the like.

Blue Mage: Blue Mage is a job that can redefine itself through the spells and gear it equips. This is true even to the sub job it equips as well. The style and play of a Blue Mage is even often dictated by the sub job. Subbing Ninja, for example, tends to favor a fast, quick-DD, spamming of spells style of play, while subbing Thief tends to lend a more "line up your opportunities and strike at the right time" style. Warrior gives a heavy, hard-hitting, yet consistent, DoT DD, while Paladin creates the opportunity to be a near-impervious wall-o-death DD at times (my personal favorite for Campaign).

Blue Mage quickly became a job I love, because you can play it however you want, and it'll work. The only real wrong way to play it is to not match your gear to your sub and spell list.

Corsair: While I'm sure BBQ can espouse a litany on Corsair longer than I can, I still have my own experiences that I had when taking this job to 75 that I can share. Early on, yeah, not having a gun to work on Marksmanship with kinda sucked. That made me think "what am I gonna do to fix that on my own?" My answer? Thief. While I had already leveled Thief, it didn't stop me from picking up a crossbow, a handful of cheap bolts, and heading out to pick off worms for a while. That paid off dividends, just for a bit of forethought.

As for subs, I used Ninja and Ranger, two jobs I never really wanted to level before, but my wanting to level Gambler- er, I mean, Corsair, made me see that I have to work outside my comfort zone to get what I want. Nowadays, it seems that Dancer is looking to be a good option for this job as well. White Mage is still useful and needed in some endgame activities, if for nothing else, to ensure your own survival.

Paladin: I've been having a blast playing this job, and I've found I actually enjoy tanking, and so far (level 60 as of this post), it's been a really easy thing to do, crazy ass Warriors, Thieves, Monks, Rangers, Dark Knights, Samurai, Dragoons, Black Mages, Blue Mages, and White Mages included. Warrior is more or less bread-and-butter, while Ninja is (apparently, from what I've seen and read) essential to endgame. Other than that, Mages of the Red and Blue variety can give Paladin some very scary abilities that make them a beast to kill.

Dancer: This job, as well, I've been enjoying. While only 50 as of this post, it still have left enough of an impression on me to figure out what kind of assets it will give as a sub. It has given most melees the ability to put their TP to use outside of just mindlessly WSing, while allowing them to offer other things to the party/alliance/what-have-you other than just "hit auto-attack and go make a sammich" play. Healing without needing to gear any differently is a solid approach to the design of the job in my book.

Well, as you can see, the above jobs can have a lot of overlap in subs, so leveling a lot of them can be really beneficial. The core tend to be Warrior, White Mage, and Ninja; however, don't be fooled into thinking that's all you'll ever need. Also, don't feel that you can't experiment. You may be surprised at what you'll find if you do so. I know myself and a lot of my IRL friends who play had no clue how strong a combo BLU/PLD was until I tried it out, then showed it to them. A few of them were floored at how much staying power that combo has while keeping its DD potential mostly intact.

You may find something similar in your meandering.

[Icemage]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

The answer to your question revolves around the jobs you want to raise to 75.

PLD:
/WAR is the traditional sub.
I hear good things about /DNC, but have yet to see the combo in action.
/NIN can be very useful once you're at 75 - IF you do a lot of endgame.

DRG:
I'll defer to LadyKiki's experience with this job's subs.

BLU:
Pretty flexible job.
/THF for damage post-44.
/NIN for more safety at any level 24+.
/WHM if you prefer a healer/support role.
/DNC is an intriguing possibility as well.

COR:
Ask Omgwtfbbqkitten about this job.
Common wisdom suggests /NIN or /WHM, however.

BRD:
/WHM is the predominant sub here.
/NIN at 74+ for merit parties only.

As a whole, based on the jobs you want to raise, I'd go with Dancer and Ninja as subjobs to raise, as they're both useful in a number of contexts.

/SCH is basically only really useful for White Mages. Light Arts is simply godly for a mage that uses exclusively white magic. BLM and RDM can get a bit of mileage from this sub, but not nearly as much due to its inflexibility and very limited spell list.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Ok, so it sounds like I'm pretty much on the right track. MNK can stay at 18 until the end of time, but THF and DNC are two I need to focus on getting up to speed, as well as RNG for COR.

I don't think I'm going to take WHM past 42 ever, but you never know. So maybe I'll still level SCH to 37. But not right now.

[Icemage]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Ok, so it sounds like I'm pretty much on the right track. MNK can stay at 18 until the end of time, but THF and DNC are two I need to focus on getting up to speed, as well as RNG for COR.

I don't think I'm going to take WHM past 42 ever, but you never know. So maybe I'll still level SCH to 37. But not right now.

Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

Realistically, the only job that even makes good use of /RNG is Samurai, specifically post-50 Samurais using Soboro Sukehiro for Sidewinder spam.


Icemage

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

MNK can stay at 18 until the end of time

But taru Asuran Fists animation looks so cute!

[Armando]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Why would you need 75 bst for soloing? bst/dnc 37 is for soloing, perhaps whm or nin for some camps.

He never said "need," but the benefits are obvious. You charm stuff, it can tank for you and increase your damage output all at the same time, and now it won't even cut into your EXP. Contrast that with /DNC, in which you'd take all of the damage and would have to use your TP towards healing yourself, which in turn greatly gimps your damage by not letting you WS. /NIN would cut into your melee time greatly because Utsusemi: Ichi takes forever to cast, and you'd be casting it constantly to stay alive. /WHM also cuts into your combat time because of casting magic, and forces you to rest every so often.

Not saying that with /BST you'd never have to rest, or that you'd never have to hold back so that you don't make too much hate over your pet, but it generally does have the upper hand at keeping you alive while killing the mob reasonably fast. The drawback is, of course, having to take it up as a second job and not as merely a sub.

/MNK sucks as a sub and I've even lost faith it in for WAR. Counter will only proc at best 9.5% of the time and that's if you have capped hit rate. If your hit rate blows, your Counter rate will blow proportionately. Shouldn't be an issue if you have Shield Break but I'm just saying, 9.5% is just the best case scenario. Even just the 6 initial shadows from Utsusemi: Ichi can match or exceed that. The only other thing going for it is Boost, which generates about as much Volatile Enmity as casting Utsusemi: Ichi in the first place.

[Murphie]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

But taru Asuran Fists animation looks so cute!

I have to agree with you there. If only the levels between me and it weren't so interminable.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

PLD
Need: /WAR, /NIN (endgame and some merit parties)
Optional: /RDM (fun soloing), /DNC (one day may become "need"), /WHM
* /WHM is for begging to be let into exp parties on bad days. It can work, but not for those stubborn, /WAR only players.

BLU
Need: /NIN, /THF
Optional: /WHM, maybe /SAM for meditate in some weird situations.

COR
Need: /RNG /NIN /WHM
Optional: /DNC, /SAM(?)
* Breaking rank with Icemage here; even before Slugshot, COR can do decent damage, and /RNG is very helpful for achieving that. In parties which do not need another cure source or puller, /RNG is the way to go.

BRD
Need: /WHM /NIN
Optional: /BLM (endgame, and rarely needed)
* /NIN can be useful as soon as Utsusemi: Ichi becomes available. It's earlier than Blink from /WHM, and more reliable. Obviously not a factor unless pulling.

DRG
Need: /WHM, /SAM, /WAR
Optional: /NIN (nice for some BC fights), /BLU and /RDM (as alternative to /WHM)

The "Optional" lists are not exhaustive; just a sampling.

There are some support jobs which are good in (mostly weird) situations, and work for many different main jobs:
- /DRG is terrific for High Jump to lose some enmity. Attack Bonus and Accuracy Bonus aren't bad, either.
- /BLU when getting hit more often than Utsusemi can handle, and for Wild Carrot and Healing Breeze.
- /PLD for auto-refresh, when the main job has MP and melee capability. (e.g. A soloing RDM/PLD looks less stupid than RDM/SMN, if only marginally so.)
- /NIN for Utsusemi (duh), and apparently un-resistible debuff from -ton spells to lower resist against element of choice. Dual Wield is an easy and consistent way to increase DoT and WS damage from one-handed weapons, too.
- /DNC for toss out cures w/out MP worries, provided that TP is easy to get.
- /SCH for usable Aspir on any main; Light/Dark Arts enables more efficient spell casting. Grants access to Cure III, Regen II, and Raise, IIRC.
- /SAM for Meditate, and for Hasso/Seigan (two-handed weapons only).

Or, just ignore all that, and level /NIN--that's the one major missing support job from your list, I think.


p.s. "Race & Job Type Q & A"

[Murphie]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

Oops. I don't know why I forgot to list it among my already leveled subs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

I couldn't think of exactly where to put this thread, but then I figured "Hey, I'm a returning player of sorts!" so I decided to put it here. Feel free to move it tho.

I haven't decided what job I'd like to take to 75 next (honestly, I'd like to take a couple, but I know I need to focus on 1-2 to keep the task reasonable). In the meantime, I'm trying to sort potential future subs out.

So I already have DRK WAR NIN BLM and WHM at SJ level and I in the process of leveling THF and RNG to 37. What other subs do I need to think about?

MNK - Do I have any reason to level this if I'm not going to level WAR past 40? Would I even need it then?

Aside from WAR, /MNK is hardly used for anything. Could be of use to PUP or THF at low levels, but that's about all I can see using /MNK

SCH - What jobs sub this?

/SCH is best put to use by WHM, RDM and SMN at this point, it doesn't really offer RDM anything. Its nice because /SCH trims down the cost of types of magic affected by Light and Dark Arts, the 1/2 MP cost Strategims are also helpful. SCH also gets Regen II under and Aspir under sub, which is useful to any of the three. The B skill in Dark Magic is a real bonus as well.

DNC - Ditto.

Very good for a wide range of melee and tank jobs, particularly those that can get thier hands on a mult-hit weapon at later levels. Not so hot for RNG or mage jobs, though RDM could use it fairly well in a small party, thier role in larger partys is too casting intensive for them to spend time TPing for cures.

SAM - Is this still a desirable sub for some jobs?

WAR, DRK, DRG and RNG are all jobs that can draw benefits from SAM the best. Its also a noteworthy subjob for DNC at 60+ when you get meditate under the subjob. While DNC wouldn't get the benefit of Hasso or Seigan, Reverse Flourish and Meditate are a match made in heaven.

I haven't mentioned PLD DRG BLU COR or BRD because those are the jobs I'm deciding on for the push to 75. If I go with one or more of them are there subjobs I should consider leveling outside of the ones I'm already working on?

PLD - WAR, WHM, NIN and DNC all have uses. WAR is your defacto tanking sub, NIN your meritpo/endgame sub. Jury is still out on DNC, but I've seen it hold hate like a machine. its like working with a Taru PLD on any race. They can just keep curing themselves and are a blood tanking magnet.

DRG - SAM, WAR, THF, BLU, WHM, RDM subs get the best out of both worlds of the subs. I've never been a fan of the balanced wyvern, though, so I can't reccommend subs that relate to that. I've seen people use /DNC for solo on it, but I remain of the opinion the mage subs are still better for that end. /DNC produces an offensive wyvern, as DNC has no spells.

BLU - THF, WAR, NIN, WHM, RDM are all functional. Great duo partner for many jobs, too.

COR - Oh boy, you asked for it. Muahahaha. RNG, DNC, WHM, NIN, RDM, BLU, BRD would be your main round of subjobs to play. RNG and DNC are probably the best of your EXP subs, while mage subs are best reserved for pre-30 levels and endgame. NIN and BRD are more for merits, though BRD can be endgame sub as well in some places. WAR gets used sometimes in merit, but only if you've unlocked the Detonator weaponskill.

BRD - WHM, RDM, BLU, NIN all work out well. Not much to reinvent about BRD subs.

I also haven't mentioned PUP or BST. I know BST is like, the best soloing SJ ever, but I'm not sure that leveling BST to 75 right now just to make soloing easier is what I want to do. One day perhaps.

/BST for soloing successfully requires... BST at 75. Yep. /BST is the subjob that breaks all the subjob rules, its skill in charming seems to directly affected by the subjob's real leve. I actually tested it out when my BST was 37 on my 75 BRD. Got my ass handed to me by some Wajaom Tigers, couldn't charm them at all with subbed Charm.

BST subs are presently - WHM, RDM, BLU (limted use), DNC, NIN, WAR and SAM. The big melee subs here are for actual PTs, the rest is for solo. I still regard WHM and NIN the best of the solo subs, /NIN got a lot better with the addition of Snarl, easy to put up shadows with that. /WHM just has all the curative abilites, you can't get status cures til 70 with DNC sub.

PUP does well with WHM, WAR, and DNC these days. The soulsoother attachment did a lot for giving them a PT role, even if it was probably the last one they wanted.

Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

Realistically, the only job that even makes good use of /RNG is Samurai, specifically post-50 Samurais using Soboro Sukehiro for Sidewinder spam.

Icemage

I outdamage SAM Sidewinders with my Slugs and Detonators regularly, thank you very much.

Just because no one invites CORs to BE damage dealers doesn't mean they can't be damage dealers. As of the Addition of Steel Bullets and the Detonator adjustment the job has come very close to stepping on RNG's toes, anyone who's played both can tell you that.

/RNG is also a very decent melee sub in the 20s, that Accuracy Bonus trait brings a lot more to the table than other subs will for melees of that level. You can't get the first Accuracy Bonus trait from /DNC or /DRG til 60, you can get it from /RNG at 20.

[Icemage]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

I outdamage SAM Sidewinders with my Slugs and Detonators regularly, thank you very much.

Yes, but do you gain TP as fast as a Soboro SAM, even with Joyeuse?

Just because no one invites CORs to BE damage dealers doesn't mean they can't be damage dealers. As of the Addition of Steel Bullets and the Detonator adjustment the job has come very close to stepping on RNG's toes, anyone who's played both can tell you that.

I'm not downplaying the raw damage potential of COR, but it isn't and never has been a primary damage dealing job, due to the role that's typically shoved onto it.

Not that having the sub available if you need it is a bad thing, but the point of this thread is prioritization of which subjobs to level, and of the jobs listed, /RNG only benefits COR, and not nearly to the degree of other available options.

/RNG is also a very decent melee sub in the 20s, that Accuracy Bonus trait brings a lot more to the table than other subs will for melees of that level. You can't get the first Accuracy Bonus trait from /DNC or /DRG til 60, you can get it from /RNG at 20.

That I can agree with, but most jobs get something more decent to sub by level 30, so if you're just looking for an ACC bonus trait to hold you over until another sub gives you something more useful, 15 levels of Ranger is adequate.


Icemage

[Kuro]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

What happend to you Icemage? I used to think you were cool!

... oh wait, nevermind.

[Callisto]

Re: Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

BBQ forgot /WAR for COR. It's really only useful for merits, but /WAR using Sushi can easily cap melee hit rate for TP building while still having higher attack most of the time compared to a COR/RNG eating meat. Aside from that, /RNG is the mandatory sub, /NIN is useful for pulling but meh otherwise, /WHM is good for when you're playing Bardsair, which can happen often at endgame events, especially as a Taru, although I'd prefer /RDM over it for the 20% boost to Quick Draw damage unless -nas are really neccesary. In any fight where you can melee for TP, /DNC would work just as well as /WHM, and would probably be better for solo/campaign.

Now the other jobs I actually know something about:

RDM: If you can get it to 37, you'll probably find some occassion to sub it. I use BLM, WHM, DRK, NIN all very often, /WAR, /THF, and /RNG situationally, and would use /SCH for Limbus/Sea if I had it past 18.

For BRD, WHM and NIN are the obvious stand-by subs, although if you are into HNM you'll want /BLM available as well, Elemental Seal > Troubadour > Elegy is too big of a difference maker to be overlooked.
______________________________

I'm not downplaying the raw damage potential of COR, but it isn't and never has been a primary damage dealing job, due to the role that's typically shoved onto it.

I agreed with that up until the last meripo I had as COR, where I finally got around to toying with COR/WAR in a good setup without being responsible for pulling. I easily put up higher WS #'s than anyone else in the party on a consistent basis, blowing away a DRK's Guillotine's, a SAM's Tachis, and Penta Thrust, while still being able to consistently build TP fast enough to WS every fight or two, would have been more but we were pretty much 3-shotting every mob, and I had to sit on TP many times b/c someone would get the killshot right as I hit my WS macro, and I'm too smart to open a fight with Slug Shot.

Edit: Here's a shot from the party to show I'm not being fecetious, setup was me, DRG/BLU, RDM/NIN(was more pulling and letting the DRG heal), BRD/NIN, SAM/THF, and DRK/THF. The highest chain we hit was only 88 unfortunately, the SAM d/c'd when we hit 79


This was as COR/WAR using Squid+1, and it happened fairly often in that party. I'd say I averaged about 1600 per WS over the course of the party, my high was 2218 with Berserk/11 Chaos/Double Minuet/Warcy, low was 1k~ during a minute or so span where I had missed a Minuet, was in between having DRK roll on myself, and Berserk was down, under normal circumstances of Berserk/7 Chaos/Double Min I was easy averaging 1900, the drop to 1500-1600 coming in the minute or so span when I would cycle to Evoker's/Hunter's on myself.

I've been getting invited to come as a DD more and more often recently as COR, while you're right that it's not what they get invited to do often, playerbase mindset, etc, I think it's really more of a case of people not being used to playing with DD-minded CORs, and instead being subjected to Bardairs who are too scared to use their expensive bullets and good food.

The point is not to derail, sorry if I did, but the point is blanket statements like:

Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

shouldn't be tossed around in a subjob discussion. If it's a useful sub, even situationally, there's no reason not to level it. COR is very capable of being one of the main DDs in the party, and if you plan on leveling the job you should level those DD-minded subs to have them available should you find yourself in a position to fill that role, the same way that RDM/WHM can easily be the main healer, so you should probably level WHM sub for it in case that's what you get invited for.