Parsers-Can I ask about this?

[711rocks]

If this is against the rules, I'm sorry, idk if these really count as hacks. Maybe in this sense though:
I have heard of ways to hack ps2 to cheat, which is bad and I dont want to do that, but is there anyway to hack it to run a parser? I'd like to see how I'm doing in % of damage.
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Sorry if this violates the rules, close the thread if it does.

[Mog]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

Parsers are 3rd party programs, which are against the ToS, so yea.

[Sevv]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

you can hack a ps2 to do about ne thing under the radar my friend use to do it he moved to computer did the same things got banned lmao so ya it not worth running a parser to see ur %.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

Parsers are 3rd party programs, which are against the ToS, so yea.

While PS2 is out of my grasp, if parsers on PC would be deemed third-party tools so would text-editors. Since well all log files are stored on you computer locally and you can access them at any time.

The only thing a parser does is grab the dumps in those log files and formats them in an easy to access manner.

[Sabaron]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

As I've mentioned before:

[EDIT: Removed portion of text to please Mhurron].


All the spyle/taz parser does is read files that you could open, read, and process yourself. It merely speeds up the process. The files contain native, readable language. The parser does not modify the game code, or grant you any in-game abilities that other people do not have. The parser doesn't even have to run on the same machine as the game--you can map a network drive to your logs and run the parser on a second machine.

Using a parser is no different than me using Excel to do calculations on information that I collect from the game by reading in-game or saved logs from the hard drive. Therefore it does not violate the ToS, and unless you can point out specifically where in the ToS this type of application is restricted, I will not be able to agree that it is an "illegal 3rd party program". Parsers are no more illegal than me running WinAmp or Windows Media Player to "modify the in-game music", using Notepad (a native app) to read the stored FFXI logs, or using the MS included Calculator (calc.exe) application to calculate the DPS of a weapon using information I read off the screen in game.

Secondly, there is no possible way for SE to detect the application without violating their own recently reiterated statement regarding collecting data on applications in use on your system since the parser does not engage or replace the code of the game itself.

That being said. PS2 does not run MSWindows. The only parser I know of requires at the very least a modern operating system to run and I've not seen mention (anywhere) of a PS2 parser. Therefore, you're SOL so to speak.

[Feba]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

Exactly, the parser is not a third party application, because it does not modify FFXI in any way. Windower could be considered a third party app, the information it's plugin shows wouldn't, but the plugins might depending on what they do.

Anyway, I believe PS2 is based on linux, so if you can find a linux parser, find a way to run it on PS2, and get it and FFXI to run at the same time, you could, but it's not worth the hassle.

[Taskmage]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

I agree with Sabaron where it concerns the Tazzy parser and other derivitives of Spyle's parser. DVS Parse I believe actually accesses the logs before FFXI dumps them off to the hard drive, while they're still in the program's reserved memory. I'm not sure where that puts the program in terms of ToS legality, but personally it makes me uncomfortable to be running an app that has something in common with commonly used hacks, though I've been assured it's safe both in terms of getting caught and personal security.

Anyway, none of that really concerns you as a PS2 player. I'm given to believe that a lot of things are possible on a PS2+HDD if you know how to do it. I have some friends that download PS2 isos, stick em on the hard drive and play them from there. They've even got emulators and media players for it if I understand correctly. O.o So .. if it's possible to pull off shenanigans of that level, it's gotta be possible to write a parser or configure an existing parser to look at the logs of a networked PS2. Nobody's done it yet that I know of, though.

[Mhurron]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

As I've mentioned before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-party_developer: SE is not a First-party Developer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-party_developer: SE is a Second-party Developer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_developer: Anyone else is a Third-party Developer

First - Check your links, they don't seem to work.

Second - SE *wrote* FFXI. They are its owner and by definition the First party. Second Party developers would be those directly licenced by SE to alter the game environment which at the moment is no one. Everybody else is Third-Party to SE when dealing with the game.

Edit:
By manually going through wiki I see what you missed. When discussing parties, your designation of first, second and third is defined by your point of view. SE is second party to Sony as regards to licensing the materials to make a PS2 game, but they are the first party as regards control of FFXI.

[Sabaron]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

I was referring to Microsoft as the only 1st Party Vendor wrt games distributed that run on MSWindows or XBox, and Sony as the only 1st Party Vendor wrt PS2/3. I think the links must've failed because of the ":".. Fixed. But as I mentioned, it's all based on Point of View and the designation has minimal impact. I'm also not disputing your definition of 3rd party from the POV of SE either I will just say that it doesn't matter and that's not supposed to be the focus of my post, though you make it seem so.

I would prefer to use the term "Non-approved Tool" than use the term "3rd Party Application" since that is technically what's we're talking about specifically those that actually interact with the game's interfaces or memory. Everything is a 3rd Party App, but that's just me splitting split hairs. None of this has any bearing on the ToS viability of a program that reads the stored log files of FFXI for the sole purpose of collecting and parsing data. Don't focus on that portion of my argument--it's like...flavor, I guess--not really pertinent, but I have a tendency to get a bit tangential.

[Taskmage]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

The forum software parsed the :'s as part of the url. If you delete them, they work. I'll just copy and paste though.

In the video game industry, a first-party developer is a developer who is part of a company that actually manufactures a video game console. First-party developers may either use the name of the company itself (like Nintendo), or have a specific division name (like Sony's Polyphony Digital). Unlike second-party developers, however, the first-party developer is considered part of the manufacturer, not a separate entity, and is wholly owned by the console manufacturer.

In the video game industry, a second-party developer is a developer who, while being a separate entity from any console manufacturer, is tied to a specific one usually through contract or partial ownership and makes games specifically for that console manufacturer.

The defining characteristic is that a second-party developer is a company completely separate from the manufacturer, while first-party developers are considered to be a "division" of the console maker itself.

A second-party developer should not be confused with an internal first-party studio. For example, Intelligent Systems, developers of the original Metroid games, is an internal Nintendo studio and therefore not second-party. Camelot Software Planning, developer of the Golden Sun, Mario Golf and Mario Tennis games, is an example of a second-party developer.

The term "second-party" however, is not an official business term like "first-party" and "third-party", but is used simply to distinguish between third-party developers who develop games for various video game consoles, and developers who while still a third-party, provide software only for a single video-game console.

A third-party developer is a developer not directly tied to the primary product that a consumer is using. The primary product may be hardware or software.

In the video game industry, many third parties publish the games they develop, such as Electronic Arts and Ubisoft, while others only develop games to be published under other companies, such as BioWare (2nd party Xbox and 3rd party PC) and Raven Software. Furthermore, third party developers can be owned by larger third parties, such as the relationship between Neversoft (creators of the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series) and Activision. Because of this, much larger third parties that also publish their own games are typically referred to as publishing houses and not third party developers even though they do develop many of their own games internally.

Another example is a developer that is a separate legal entity from the software being used, usually providing an external software tool that helps organize or use information for the primary software product. Such tools could be a database, VoIP, or add-in interface software, among others.

The first and third paragraphs of the last quote are most relevant to the discussion.

Although ... I've been combing through the SLAs and user agreements, and I can't find any mention of third-party software at all. The closest thing I can find is "Use of any cheat codes or cheat devices." So it seems like the arguement about what consitutes third-party software is rather moot. It only really matters if the software in question could be defined as a "cheat" by an SE representative, which I imagine would vary broadly depending on who you spoke with.

[hongman]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

When I asked a GM about this a while ago, the GM specifically said, the use of a parser would be against the ToS in SE's eyes (and we all know that SE's views may not agree with everyone else's, not matter how much you prove so).

BUT

When i asked the GM if running the parser on a seperate machine would be illegal also, he said no, becuase it is not on the same PC as FFXI.

Bit of a crap response if you ask me, I am in the view that a parser is not illegal (morally) whether it be on the same PC or not. But what matters here (per se) is what SE thinks.

Like I said I have no moral issues with using a parser, so I will use a parser. Unlike the fact that I have moral issues with things like Warp Hacks and Flee Tools.

[Sabaron]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

A GM is like a Customer Service Representative. They may have the voice of SE, but their answers can be rather divergent. With this particular GM's response, any program running in the background on my PC appears to violate the ToS since it's not made by SE and could affect the program (i.e. slowing it down by stealing processor cycles, scanning its memory footprint for viruses, monitoring it's access of files on your system, etc.).

[Taskmage]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

Be that as it may, if one's hypothetical ass were to be banned, a GM would likely be the one responsible, and that particular GM's interpretation of the rules set forth by the user agreements and SLAs would constitute the "law" in that case.

So basically I'm saying whether it's "legal" as far as SE is concerned depends on who you talk to. Truth is a local phenominon. As far as this forum is concerned though, they're ok to discuss and reference. Modifying a PS2 to accept a parser somehow, I dunno, since I'm not really clear on what would be involved in that. I'm pretty sure whatever the method is would void your warranty, but that's about it. I'm calling it fair game.

[Sevv]

Re: Parsers-Can I ask about this?

it can be done u can mod ne thing to ps2 really i know people who bot with thier ps2 it takes
a) insanley smart person
b) someone with ALOT of cash to spare