why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

[Taskmage]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

Dunno. Might be because I have a fancy schmancy keyboard with internet buttons and function keys and all that other good stuff I never use and often wish it didn't have. So hard to find a good, normal keyboard.

[Sabaron]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

AHA! I have a fancy schmancy keyboard, but I don't have the drivers installed (oddly enough it's a Microsoft Keyboard and doesn't have native support in Win2k). Consequently, none of my fancy buttons work (I don't use those anyway). My brother has a vanilla keyboard.

I'm going to point out a possible experiment... Dust off an archaic keyboard or uninstall any proprietary drivers your keyboard came with and see what happens. ^^ I'm absolutely dying to know what happens... Of course maybe I'll just dust off my KB driver disc and see what happens with my system..

[Sabaron]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

Well, I finished my experiment and the results are.... inconclusive. My prior assertion about Ctrl+Alt+Del was incorrect--I can and most likely always have been able to exit the game via this sequence. Since I cannot recall a specific instance in which I used this sequence during normal operation of the game (instead of when it's crashing/freezing in which case I have definitely used this sequence, sometimes multiple times with some success). Alt-Tab and Ctrl-Esc (Windows Key) were disabled both before installation, after installation, and after removal of my fancy schmancy keyboard driver (Microsoft Intellitype Pro). I will note that my FSKB is old and not likely as fancy as the one you've got working under the assumption that your keyboard/computer is newer than mine.

Question for the OP: Do you have a fancy schmancy Internet-enabled keyboard with nifty buttons for Internet Browsing, volume control, Sleep mode, Calculator, etc?

[x1ang]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

Actually, this is false (Why are people still touting this as fact?) and has been proven by Cliff of Windower fame. If you don't believe me, either Feba has a link or you can go to the Windower's forum and either search for that thread or you can shoot an email to Cliff yourself as to why Alt+Tab was never introduced.

Hm, what I meant was that ALT+TABing being a crash function due to the fact that losing focus causes FFXI to crash - which is a result of ALT-TABing

[Sabaron]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

Actually, this is false (Why are people still touting this as fact?) and has been proven by Cliff of Windower fame.
So basically, many people have been wrong with their assumptions about why SE didn't add in Alt-Tab function.

I'm not a PS2 Programmer, nor do I do ports, nor am I aware of which (PC or PS2) version of FFXI was generated first and which is the port. However, I do know this:

The ALT-TAB combination is a system key event. It is enabled by default. Which means, if you don't specifically code to block the signal, then it works. In order to block the signal, a programmer will request assignment of the key combination as a hotkey generally using an API call called RegisterHotKey. Then, their program will receive "first dibs" on the Alt-Tab message and can then simply throw the event away when it goes through the message loop rather than sending it on down the pipe to the OS.

I could not find the thread to which you are referring, so if you want to post a link, please do so. However, at this time, I will say that Square Enix's FFXI Client program specifically and deliberately traps and blocks Alt-Tab except in instances where certain other programming has prevented it from doing so. As for the reason for the crashing behavior, since an error message is produced they chose to have FFXI die upon loss of it's assigned resources (which is easy) rather than cleanly restoring them upon reacquisition of focus (which requires extra programming). This extra programming is what is in the Windower application that allows Alt-Tab to proceed cleanly (It also puts FFXI in Windowed mode rather than Fullscreen unless you specify otherwise). Of course, I could be wrong, I didn't write the thing, but I'm also not rooting around looking for a centuries old post that doesn't come up when I type "Alt-Tab" in the search box and when "Alt Tab" produces 15 pages of search results.

[Balfree]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

Better to cut down on those that are not aware of what you said than cut down on none, Aeni, amirite?

;P

[Feba]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

It doesnt need to be windowable to be hackable but it does cut down on the hackers, the dumb ones i suppose? Better to cut down on some than on none. Amirite?

Most hackers FFXI has have always been dumb. The problem is that no matter what you build, people will hack it.

There are just as many people hacking now as there would be if SE added an official window function. If you consider Windower Plugins cheating, there'd be even less, because with not needing a 3rd party windower, people wouldn't use it as much; especially if SE then officially banned Archbell programs (Not that they'd have any good way of detecting anything but IME)

While scripts can be run before opening up FFXI, many still require some sort of ALT+TAB feature in order to control/configure properly.

Not really. Those that DO need you to run it in a window only act like that because windower is so popular now. I remember when these hacks were originally revealed about a year ago, when everyone was "WTF"ing over these videos of JP mules flying all around windurst waters; they haven't changed much, except now you can click something instead of just hitting a hotkey.

The big difference between then and now is that you have easily searchable sites that sell hacks, instead of having to dig through 2ch and other various JP forums; finding the download code, and memlocs, etc., to make it work.

The easiest way for SE to fix MOST hacks would be:

1) Make movement server controlled. Not to the point where if you're lagging you can barely move, but that it takes your movement commands, your client moves based on it, and the server resets your character back to a proper position if it detects you going too fast. Instantly jumping over 50' to another would red flag you for GM, weither you're reported or not.

2) Daily Patches. While this might seem extreme, setting up a 30 minute time every day, shutting down the server, and changing the code just enough so that hackers need to find new memlocs every day, would be a huge blow to hackers. Add a "quick update" version of the client patcher, which would just add it as another part of logging in, instead of having to go through the entire check/download/install process. You could have downtime vary depending on day, or keep it at JP midnight, 12AM EST, or around 3:00PM EST; which would effect the smallest amount of users (Most JP would be asleep, and most NA would be at work or school. Sorry, EU, in a global MMO, someone has to take the short end of the stick)

3) Change the H/NM claim system back to the way it was; since hackers have found ways around the 'spawn purple' thing anyway; keep NMs the same, but make HNMs act like they're Orange until they're down to 98% (This would of course, not apply to spawned HNM or NM), and whoever has the most hate in this time would get the claim as Red. This is much more fair than punishing those that actually claim *earlier*. Alternatively (or additionally), make HNMs spawn in groups of three, four, five, etc, and have only one of them be the real HNM. Once the real one is claimed, the others instantly vanish. The others would of course not drop any items, or use any abilities, and would also vanish as soon as they were claimed. This gives pretty much any alliance around an equal shot at claiming it, and would do nothing but confuse hacks and bots. If this were the case, SE would have to randomize which spawn (Anyone familiar with NPC.exe knows what I mean) is the real one, so as not to give botters an advantage.

[x1ang]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

And as I had said, there are many ways around by things like simple keybinds (take ffassist for example.. not exactly a cheat, but a 3rd party prog), but by not having focus it makes configurations and running a lot tougher for the not-so-intelligent ones. Memlocs are already a pain for these people if others didn't Artmoney it and post it online for them.

1) Make movement server controlled. Not to the point where if you're lagging you can barely move, but that it takes your movement commands, your client moves based on it, and the server resets your character back to a proper position if it detects you going too fast. Instantly jumping over 50' to another would red flag you for GM, weither you're reported or not.

Is VERY true, but I believe it helps cut down on server load (I'm not too sure about that).

..Or they could add a Warden-like program, which has proven to be very effective (but not a sure way through, as people will always find a way to bypass it).

[Feba]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

..Or they could add a Warden-like program

Like you said, people WILL find a way to bypass it.

Considering the backlash in the community after warden, even among FFXI players, I don't think any non EQ/WoW MMO is gonna risk their playerbase on it.

[Antivomit]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

I don't cheat. Never have - never will. But I, on several occasions, have toyed with the idea to get a windower. I haven't because I don't want all my hard work to go down the drain if I get banned. I have practically wore out my welcome with questions to my LS. Why can't SE just create a way for me to surf the web to look up recipes, etc. without me having to aggravate everyone in game?

[Sabaron]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

This has already been discussed in detail above. Also, SE didn't change their program to thwart Windower during the last update and I don't recall that they've ever banned/suspended anyone who wasn't using Windower for cheating. Unfocusing FFXI really isn't cheating since it doesn't directly affect the game--of course if you are using T-Party or other plug-ins, complex macroers, etc., that does constitute cheating, although I'm not sure that macroing is necessarily cheating if the station is manned while the macroing is occuring. Unmanned macroing is prohibited--my brother was using a macroing program provided with his game controller to skill-up Enhancing and Healing Magic while AFK and got suspended. SE stated that they wanted the "experience" to be the same on PS2, XBOX, and PC, so swapping isn't done.

[Loial]

Re: why is minimise (alt+tab) exit the game?!!!

Change the H/NM claim system back to the way it was; since hackers have found ways around the 'spawn purple' thing anyway; keep NMs the same, but make HNMs act like they're Orange until they're down to 98%

They made a patch back in... April 2004 or around there that was bugged. This was before they "locked out" claims for 1-2 seconds. This fix actually worked... but had a horrible bug involved.

Mobs would be unclaimable for a good 4-5 seconds. They would spawn purple but claimed to nobody(see below). This eliminated any latency difference between JP/NA/EU players since even though JP might still see mobs spawn a good one second before other players, human reaction time is much less than 5 seconds, so it made things even.

You weren't "interrupted" in the way we are now if you cast early. You could spam to your heart's content, but the server would bounce back "Target already claimed." However, the target wasn't claimed by anybody yet. After 4-5 seconds, the mob would go yellow and could be claimed.

This patch, in my opinion, would have seriously hindered claim bots in general. What good is a claim bot if the other 50 people in the area are spamming as well? Then it comes down to simple luck, and not a computer sniffing a packet that the NM spawned and ticking away 1.X seconds to send a packet back to claim it.

However... leave it to SE to put in a horrible bug. Let's say you are camping some NM, pick whatever one you want. Argus, Fafnir, Mee Deggi, etc. Let's say you get claim on it and kill it. The NEXT time the mob spawns, the "I am claimed by" argument was never cleared. So, if you claim Fafnir on Monday, when it spawns, it literally pops red for you, and you can voke it before the 4-5 second timer was up.

However, if the person that had claim was no longer in zone when the mob popped again, everyone had to wait the 4-5 seconds to claim.

It was a very good fix IMO. However, it was some rookie coding mistake and guess what they did? Instead of fixing it in the next update, they rolled the code back entirely and gave us this crappy claim system we have today.