Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Are you really sure this isn't just a trojan looking like its from POL? What would SE want with your FFXIOnline, Killing Ifrit or Allakazham information?

If it is from POL, it probably looking for third party tools and no matter how much of an invasion you think that is, FFXI is their property, POL is their property and they reserve the right to look for violators of EULA by any means. And before you argue that particular point, MS does that all the time on Xbox Live to lock out third-party mod users. Its their network and their right to do so.

If this is from POL, I think they're looking for windower.
If its not POL, you have something malicious and need to run some scans.

In any event you should be looking for the true source of this program before pointing fingers, it might not be FFXI. Spyware off other FFXI sites is not unheard of.

No it is POL that does it since the last POL update. And well guess what I have no real issues with the scan itself OMG if it weren't for the fact they are not legally allowed to do so at all witout a ToS, User Agreement change.

Their EULA and ToS as of now has NO disclosure agreement about other proceses then POL itself and their ToS and User Agreement has no clause about scanning running processes at all. They have every legal right to scan their own system, but the moment they scan my running processes (no matter what is done with the data from the scan itself) they do violate invade my privacy by NOT disclosing this scan in advance in any shape or form and also break privacy and integrety laws by doing so.

If you still don't believe me, just install Process Guard (or a similar application) and run POL, it scans the memory of every singler unning application and process on your computer the moment you start POL. And it is this action that is illegal since there is not a single clause about it in the ToS or User Agreement.

And yes SEI has to the rights to scan my computer IF DISCLOSED and with an option of OPTING OUT, if neither of this is available the scan itself is against the law in US. EU and Canada alike (don't know about countries outside these regions though but doesn't matter in this case).

Since POL neither has a clause about this in the ToS or User Agreement, nor give me an option to agree to the scan itself they have no legal rights whatsoever to even initiate the scan .(not starting an application is not enough in this case, there are precedents for this).

WoW in this case does it the legal way, their EULA does state that they will scan your running processes and applicationand in addition you have to agree to the scan every time before the scan is initiatied (the legal way of handling this matter).

And no they have not every right possible to look for any violations to their EULA, since they cannot break law to do so. And in addition their ToS or User Agreement doesn't even state that they are performing this scan at all.

Before you quote the POL User Agreement and says I am wrong, currently the User Agreement only handles actions within the service itself. In lawspeak this means everything within POL and actions initiated within POL/the game itself. They have nothing in their User Agreement about external systems which the end-users computer is clasisfied as.

Hope this clear up the topic for you OMG

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Their EULA and ToS as of now has NO disclosure agreement about other proceses then POL itself and their ToS and User Agreement has no clause about scanning running processes at all. They have every legal right to scan their own system, but the moment they scan my running processes (no matter what is done with the data from the scan itself) they do violate invade my privacy by NOT disclosing this scan in advance in any shape or form and also break privacy and integrety laws by doing so.

DNAS scans your system each and every time you log in, looking for data it is told to look for and ingoring data that isn't. Any consent to DNAS in the EULA would be an consent to this as well.

SE has every right to know if you run something like windower or hacks for the game. They have every right to block it. 360 and PS2 users do not pose a threat to the network and game balance like PC users can.

So far, most of what the program does seems to be targeting windower, which is a violation of your POL user agreement. Do you use windower? Would you argue that, since SE is clearly against the use of windower at this time, SE has no right to dismantle windower? I think they do have that right.

I find it interesting you make no mention of windower, but other people complaining on other sites have mentioned it and focus on that part of what the program does. I've heard nothing of it doing other things until I saw your post.

[Akashimo]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

*Foresees massive 500k account bannings in the possible future for use of windowers, then week later FFXI with windower support*

[Theyaden]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

I have not tested any of this personally so I cannot state if SE is scanning peoples information. My statements below are regarding any company doing such a search.

Additionally if the company in question finds something of interest on the computer or not doesn't factor into the issue of is it right to scan without notice outside their own software so I will cut to the issue directly.

If a company seeks information on my system I must agree that notifying me before scanning is not only a legal requirement (The quoted legal info was listing California rather than Sweden), but a moral obligation it does not require that much effort to add a notice I must be scanned for... if I wish to use the service.

If a company wishes to see how much porn/exc is in the average users history or whatever else their looking for siimply add a notice to the opening I accept and those that are unwilling to be scanned can hit I decline and not access the service. It is not a hard issue.

Wow reportedly made the same mistake listed, appologized for not notifying people in advance and added the disclaimer so people would be aware they were being scanned if SE is also doing this they can add the same disclaimer and that should end the problem.

Sidenote http://www.peacefire.org/ probably has some of the more interesting stories regarding privacy rights, but mostly focuses on filter software though.

[Neomage]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Hmmm... well this wouldn't be THAT disturbing to me if I hadn't already been suspended for a folow-up test to Feba's experiment... and if SE IS going to start suspending/banning for windower, I fear I will be one of the next ones to be perma-banned. Well, I just installed the free version of Process Guard, and I let Launcher.exe Read, Modify, and Terminate applications as well as being protected from Reading, Modifying and Terminating applications, and with pol.exe I disabled everything. Will this work?

[Feba]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

*Foresees massive 500k account bannings in the possible future for use of windowers, then week later FFXI with windower support*

Considering SE has reported that they only have about 500k accounts....


I don't think SE would do a mass banning for windower. It would simply take out too much of their playerbase. Hell, even back when IME was popular, even though it was EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that an NA client couldn't type in kana/kanji without some sort of modification, I never heard of a single banning. I'd even talked to GMs in times when they almost certainly would've seen me using IME in the chatlog, and they never said anything. One time I asked a GM about it in a way that made it pretty obvious that i'd used it, and what he said was basically "it's a third party tool, so I can't say yes." Not so directly, but that's essentially what he meant.

Not to mention with FFXI possibly having it's own window function soon enough, this move would even piss off players who don't use windower, such as people with multiple PCs, or people with 360/PS2 versions. Not to mention, if SE DID ban EVERYONE using windower, FFXI would basically die. Even assuming only 25% of the playerbase uses windower (which is fairly low, as most PC players i've met use it, and about 60% of the population is on PC. I'd actually say more about 50%), that's 1 in four of your friends gone. Quite a few LS totally wiped out. Many people would leave to join their banned friends in other games, many would leave because they can't talk to their friends anymore, and it would basically be a domino effect.

Think about how many times you see one person leave an LS, or get banned (especially in larger HNM shells), and then you slowly see everyone in that LS leave FFXI. Now imagine if that happened to about half of FFXI, and you see why SE would never ban everyone. They might ban a few as examples, but even that isn't very likely, as this would stop an estimated (and this is rough) 50% of the population from using it, and quite a few PC users don't want to play FFXI without windower.

EDIT: And as to my personal opinion on windower, I see nothing wrong with it by itself. Many plugins, such as draw distance, I find to be just fine, however things like TParty I will agree are a gray area. While I do find they are somewhat unfair to non-PC users, I also think that it should've been put in the GUI in some fashion. If I decide to come back, I will most likely not be using windower, however that is because I have at least two other computers (An old PC and an even older mac) that I can use to surf the web while playing, and fullscreen would be easier. However, I might use it for things such as draw distance, which only make the game look better (and honestly, SE could include it for the 360, I see no reason why PC can't), although i'd still be running it in full screen mode most likely.

And on .DAT edits, although it's sort of off track, SE seems to agree that icons and such need to be more illustrative, and i'm glad to see they're working to do what Faranim and such do (did?). While I don't find things like Faranim's, Brandson's, or MOST .dat/gui mods disruptive or wrong, things i've seen before, such as making coffers into giant neon green flags are definitely not good. Personally, I think SE should embrace the .dat modding community, and host files on it's site for people to download, and possibly even make a program to make .dat switching safer and easier, that way .dats which definitely hurt the game are easier to stop. I mean, if FFXI checks with a .dat modding program each time to make sure the swaps were certified or such, you could stop cheaters from going past their model viewer.

P.P.S. Goddamn it feels nice to rant about crap again!

[Jarre]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

I see, so all the morally corrupt youth of Sweden depend on the country's laws to direct their ethical development?
You sound like a hipocrite.

Dak, don't start insulting a culture just because of their laws. it is still ilegal to share the material, just not to download it from another source.

The major problem with the internet is that it is lawless. Every country has their own "Usage" laws about what is and what isn't acceptable. As mentioned before unless a single world wide law is set in stone covering the use of the internet you will eb able to get away with more thigns in certain countries than others. This will not happen though, because most countries have their own idea of what should be law and I doubt a general consensus will be made.

It is not uncommon for an online game to scan your processes. Steam do it to check for hacks and cheat programes as part of the VAC program. Alot of microsofts software checks this and keys, hell its even worse now with Vista checking that your music and videos are legal copies and not pirated!!

In this day and age now companies are using tealth tactics to protect their interests and until someone wins a challenge against them suposedly "illegally scanning" your computer they will do it within the drop of a hat.

And to answer your question feba, I don't use windower, never had, never will and I use a pc. Up until 1 month ago I didn't even have a second computer (now have a laptop)

[Feba]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

I don't think he's insulting the culture, seems more like he's making a statement that if someone wants to do something, they'll probably do it weither it's illegal or not.

The main reason I think people are upset about this is because we trust SE to not...well, act like a big name like steam or blizzard. Why? Because a lot of us are used to those places being infested with noobs.



In other news, someone want to check alla? my friend said that pikko posted something from SE saying that they aren't reading processes, although I only visit alla when i'm ego searching on google or when i'm viewing private files hosted there.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Considering SE has reported that they only have about 500k accounts....

When/where did S-E report this number? I'm curious.

Even assuming only 25% of the playerbase uses windower (which is fairly low, as most PC players i've met use it, and about 60% of the population is on PC. I'd actually say more about 50%)

Is this a real number? Has S-E revealed the percentage of each type of clients used before?

[neighbortaru]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

removing the sweden posts from this thread. go here if you want to continue that discussion.

[Feba]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Is this a real number? Has S-E revealed the percentage of each type of clients used before?

When I make up numbers, I say so. Yes, it was about 60% on PC based on the last vana'diel census, at least among NA customers.

And yes, SE has used the 500,000 in official releases, look back through POL news and it's probably in there somewhere, at "FFXI breaks the 500,000 mark!" or something I beleive. Strangely, their figure hasn't moved up or down since then.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

When I make up numbers, I say so. Yes, it was about 60% on PC based on the last vana'diel census, at least among NA customers.

I just skimmed the 5th and 6th Vana'diel Census, and couldn't find the figures for PC clients. On the other hand, the 6th one does say "over 500,000 players".

[Feba]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Well then, i'm not sure where it was, but I assure you it was from SE. Probably something in POL viewer, I don't remember though.

[Mhurron]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

IIRC it was on screens from the Fan Festival. about 500K accounts, most NA players use Windows, something like 50-55% of Japanese players use the PS2, over 50% of players are Japanese. Stuff like that.

[Feba]

Re: Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

Oh, oh, that would explain it, yeah, I probably saw that at fan fest.

I wish I had a copy of my notes around someplace. Never bothered copying them off the alla thread, would be fun to read them again and see how much I'd forgotten.

Then again, I still missed about half of the event becausethe stupid PDA phone ran out of memory for my post or whatever happened >< Got so pissed off at that thing, nearly chucked it into the pacific.